Last stop for the Routemaster :(

[Harold Hill]

I reckon Andrew Gilligan makes an excellent point about this in the link posted. TfL are there to provide a public service, by definition this should mean providing the best public service at a reasonable cost. By getting rid of conductors and forcing every passenger to pay before hand, it is less convenient for the public - the public have to do it on their time rather than the company's, which seeing as we pay for this, is unreasonable. Even TfLs own figures state fare evasion on bendy buses is double that of a Routemaster.

I've read a bit of history about LT. At the end of the 60s, they tried to introduce flat fares and single deckers as a way of cutting waiting times and removing the need for a conductor. What happened? It failed. Why? It wasn't practical and the single deckers used were widely hated and withdrawn within 10 years. I see no reason why history won't repeat itself.

Anybody reasonably minded wants an integrated transport system. To provide that, I think you need to make public transport as accessible and attractive as possible - this means multiple ways of paying, it means security, it means a simple, identifiable route system - not the hundreds of routes we currently have where there is a lot of duplication.

I don't think the Routemaster should be kept (its 50 years old) but I do think a replacement should have been on the streets years ago and TfL should have at least showed a bit more gratitude to a vehicle that has outlived virtually every other bus built in the last century (even the 90s) and has saved them millions over the years in vehicle replacement, probably 4 or 5 times over.

 

[BarryB]

I reckon Andrew Gilligan makes an excellent point about this in the link posted. TfL are there to provide a public service, by definition this should mean providing the best public service at a reasonable cost. By getting rid of conductors and forcing every passenger to pay before hand, it is less convenient for the public - the public have to do it on their time rather than the company's, which seeing as we pay for this, is unreasonable. Even TfLs own figures state fare evasion on bendy buses is double that of a Routemaster.

I've read a bit of history about LT. At the end of the 60s, they tried to introduce flat fares and single deckers as a way of cutting waiting times and removing the need for a conductor. What happened? It failed. Why? It wasn't practical and the single deckers used were widely hated and withdrawn within 10 years. I see no reason why history won't repeat itself.

Anybody reasonably minded wants an integrated transport system. To provide that, I think you need to make public transport as accessible and attractive as possible - this means multiple ways of paying, it means security, it means a simple, identifiable route system - not the hundreds of routes we currently have where there is a lot of duplication.

I don't think the Routemaster should be kept (its 50 years old) but I do think a replacement should have been on the streets years ago and TfL should have at least showed a bit more gratitude to a vehicle that has outlived virtually every other bus built in the last century (even the 90s) and has saved them millions over the years in vehicle replacement, probably 4 or 5 times over.

On the tubes and railways you have to pay beforehand so I dont see why it should be any different on buses.

There are more buses on Londons roads than ever before and more passengers. So someone is doing something right. You say there are hundreds of routes and a lot of duplication. Of course there are hundreds of routes. London is a huge city. Im not sure what you mean by duplication. Often several routes run on the same stretch of road for a while but there start and finish points are different. But of course there is scope for improvement but I fear what you are proposing would lead to a reduction in bus services. Perhaps you could give some examples of duplication?

I agree with you about the single deckers. In my area they got rid of double deckers on the 106 route and introduced single deckers. It was a disaster. So serious was the overcrowding they had to bring back double deckers. But we shouldent confuse those single deckers with bendy buses with have a far greater capcity.

BarryB

 

[Harold Hill]

Not if you like seats, another thing you need plenty of if you're trying to sell public transport to the public.

The current bus ticketing system isn't practical. Even the Mayor admitted they were 'duff' yet millions has been wasted implementing this. The saver tickets are the sensible measure if you are to pay before the journey.

And tell me how increaed passengers on bus services means somebody is doing something right when there is no clear evidence as to the motivation of people choosing to use buses now. Thanks to the Congestion Charge, many people could now be using the bus because they have been forced to or using the hundreds of bendy buses instead of the Tube because they can jib their fare more often than not. The official figures are 7% - I presume this is people caught. I'd love to know the percentage that get away with it if this is so.

This whole thing just shows bad management. The 38 and 73 are 2 of the busiest routes in London where many people commute into the West End from Islington, Stoke Newington, Dalston and Hackney because there is no train alternative. The running time is about 45 minutes to an hour. In the rush hour most of these buses are packed out from early in the route so not only do you have to queue to buy a ticket whilst people fumble for the right money, you then have the privilige of being squashed onto buses for up to an hour where the running time is no doubt slower then the Routemaster thanks to the turning on narrow streets. There have been various reports on lots of 38s having been turned around short of Victoria due to slow running. I'd put my mortgage on the Customer Satisfaction surveys being poor so the consequence of getting rid of the conductors is that the service has got worse for everyone.

As for duplication - I don't have the figures but I would estimate most bus journeys in London are for distances of three miles or less as for any longer distance journeys, the tube or overground does it quicker. Off the top of my head you have

59/159 from Lambeth North down to Streatham Hill
68/468 from Norwood to the Elephant & castle
5/87 along the Longbridge Road (87 is going next year though so obviously someone spotted that one)
14/414 from Hyde Park Corner to Putney
139/189 from Oxford Street to west hampstead
25/86 between Stratford and Ilford
19/22 from Slloane Square to Piccadilly Circus
48/55 from Shoreditch to Walthamstow
10/390 from Marble Arch to Kings Cross
36/436 from paddington to New Cross
53/453 from Whitehall to Deptford

As most of these routes are frequent, if you introduce through tickets, you could increase the frequency on one of most of the above and withdraw the other. The net result would be less buses on the roads, less mileage, less dead running to depots but not reduced frequencies on services.

 

[Maggot]

There are more buses on Londons roads than ever before and more passengers. So someone is doing something right.

Yes Ken Livingstone and TfL. They have been rightly criticised for getting rid of the Routemaster, but overall bus services in London have improved massively since they took over.

 

[William of Walworth]

Good. So that means people in wheelchairs won't be excluded like they were with archaic Routemasters!

You clearly don't give the slightest shit about disabled access (neither do TfL all that much, in reality -- read the thread), otherwise you'd have paid a minor amount of attention to all the posts outlining the alternatives that would have enhanced disabled access, short of abolishig the Routemaster.

EG commissioning a new design of the Routemaster, or alternating easy access buses with existing RMs on the same route, or whatever.

In other words, you're trolling -- because you're ignoring the substantive points, and youlre just saying 'good riddance' just to be oh-so-'controversial'

If everyone in this thread was celebrating its demise, you'd be bemoaning it.

 

[William of Walworth]

It isn't.

A sad day for London?

Piss off.

This false sentimentality is bollox!

I rest my case. You clearly don't give a shit about the real debate (otherwise you'd have made some actual points ), you're just here to insult others. Nice friendly bloke aren't you.

 

[William of Walworth]

Building the “Son of Routemaster”: Some Real Alternatives Which
Transport for London Passed Up by Andrew Morgan

page 36 et seq.

There you go.

Why do we informed amateurs always seem better able to retrieve information than posters with paid jobs in "infomation science"

I work in a very traditional institution in which computing does a fair bit of work for some purposes, but not others

And cos I was in a hurry, only had time to do a simple Google, ...

Will read it later when I can ...

 

[William of Walworth]

I'm not sure what a modern bus does but when we looked up the fuel consumption of a routemaster on the farewell party it turned out they only did 8 miles to the gallon.

So about £5 of petrol alone to do 8 miles - which on average they'll carry 30 passengers...

Suggest you check the fuel consumption levels of the bendies

To be fair, and to respond to beeboo's post earlier, the 159 will not be replaced by a bendy but by a normal (new) double decker -- not sure what the fuel consumption of those is.

I did read somewhere that there will be no more new bendies introduced, is this true??

 

[netbob]

For anyone with magic telley it's Routmaster night on BBC Four.

 

[Red Faction]

im sad to see them go
but as long as they're replaced with big red double deckers then i wont be too upset
what RETARD came up with the idea of bendy buses?!

having to wait for hours on whitechapel high street only to have to squeeze in because the bus is completely packed with people 90% havent even paid for it

 

[William of Walworth]

Wish I'd known about this!!!

 

[William of Walworth]

For anyone with magic telley it's Routmaster night on BBC Four.

Just watched that programme with conductors reminiscing !

 

[netbob]

Just a thought, but I wonder if someone brought an old Routey and ran it on the 159 route could it break even/make a profit?

 

[Bob]

Just a thought, but I wonder if someone brought an old Routey and ran it on the 159 route could it break even/make a profit?

It would be illegal - most buses are run by private companies and bid in London for the subsidies to run a route - but to be allowed to do that they have to fulfill various requirements.

I blame the GLA for not allowing a free market in bus routes.

 

[netbob]

It would be illegal - most buses are run by private companies and bid in London for the subsidies to run a route - but to be allowed to do that they have to fulfill various requirements.

There must be a way round it. You could run it a as mobile private memebrs club, like a speak easy for bus nerds.

 

[BarryB]

Not if you like seats, another thing you need plenty of if you're trying to sell public transport to the public.

The current bus ticketing system isn't practical. Even the Mayor admitted they were 'duff' yet millions has been wasted implementing this. The saver tickets are the sensible measure if you are to pay before the journey.

And tell me how increaed passengers on bus services means somebody is doing something right when there is no clear evidence as to the motivation of people choosing to use buses now. Thanks to the Congestion Charge, many people could now be using the bus because they have been forced to or using the hundreds of bendy buses instead of the Tube because they can jib their fare more often than not. The official figures are 7% - I presume this is people caught. I'd love to know the percentage that get away with it if this is so.

This whole thing just shows bad management. The 38 and 73 are 2 of the busiest routes in London where many people commute into the West End from Islington, Stoke Newington, Dalston and Hackney because there is no train alternative. The running time is about 45 minutes to an hour. In the rush hour most of these buses are packed out from early in the route so not only do you have to queue to buy a ticket whilst people fumble for the right money, you then have the privilige of being squashed onto buses for up to an hour where the running time is no doubt slower then the Routemaster thanks to the turning on narrow streets. There have been various reports on lots of 38s having been turned around short of Victoria due to slow running. I'd put my mortgage on the Customer Satisfaction surveys being poor so the consequence of getting rid of the conductors is that the service has got worse for everyone.

As for duplication - I don't have the figures but I would estimate most bus journeys in London are for distances of three miles or less as for any longer distance journeys, the tube or overground does it quicker. Off the top of my head you have

59/159 from Lambeth North down to Streatham Hill
68/468 from Norwood to the Elephant & castle
5/87 along the Longbridge Road (87 is going next year though so obviously someone spotted that one)
14/414 from Hyde Park Corner to Putney
139/189 from Oxford Street to west hampstead
25/86 between Stratford and Ilford
19/22 from Slloane Square to Piccadilly Circus
48/55 from Shoreditch to Walthamstow
10/390 from Marble Arch to Kings Cross
36/436 from paddington to New Cross
53/453 from Whitehall to Deptford

As most of these routes are frequent, if you introduce through tickets, you could increase the frequency on one of most of the above and withdraw the other. The net result would be less buses on the roads, less mileage, less dead running to depots but not reduced frequencies on services.

Well its a good thing that rather vthan paying the congestion charge people are using buses.

Regarding duplication of services I havent the time to look all of them up but here are a few examples

48/55
48 goes from Wathamstow to London Bridge
55 Leyton to Oxford Circus

5/87
5 Becontree Heath to Canning Town
87 Barking-Romford

19/22
19 Finsbury Park to Battersea Bridge
22 Putney Common-Piccadilly Circus

10/390
10 Hammersmith to Kings Cross
390 Archway-Notting Hill Gate

Surely this shows that whilst there may be duplication along these routes they start and end at different places. They are not dead-running. And you need duplication of bus routes precisely because in the shared areas buses are used so well.

Bus services are by no means perfect but if your measures were put into force it would lead (as you yourself admit) to less buses. For instance if you increase the frequency of the 55 service and withdraw the 48 service you are going to mean you cant travel direct by bus from Walthamstow, Leyton and Clapton to Liverpool Street and London Bridge. If Ken Livingstone advocated this I can assure you it would be a very unpopular measure.

BarryB

 

[BarryB]

A poll I saw on a news programme a short while ago showed the big majority of Londoners didn't want to see them go.

Yes there is the issue of disable access but there is also the issue of conductors making them better for the elderly, women at night, blind people etc And the Q-Master could have solved the disabled issue in the long run. You can't just dismiss the love of these buses that most Londoners have, even if it is misty eyed to you.

But this goes hand in hand with a demise in services for working class people in the past 20 years. When I was a kid about 20 years back you had conductors on all the buses, guards on trains and on the stations, caretakers (both on estates and in schools), park keepers etc etc now you have none of those and it harms communities in a big way IMO. On top of that you didn't have to pay for prescriptions, dental care, eye tests....

And now they're saying the pension ages is gonna go up to 69......a lot of things have definately got worse for the working class in the last 20 years......

Yes...but you have a much increased bus and tube service. For instance night buses were really mean for night workers. But now of course night buses are more used for leisure journeys and they are running round London in increasing numbers.

Concerning the tube and railways you now have the Jubilee Line in operation, the East London Line underway and of course the DLR. Only a week ago the DLR was extended to London City Airport. In parts of east and north London from tomorrow off peak and Sunday services rail services are being doubled. So not everything is doom and gloom compared with 20 years ago.

However I agree that each railway station should be staffed.

BarryB

 

[Harold Hill]

Well its a good thing that rather vthan paying the congestion charge people are using buses.

Regarding duplication of services I havent the time to look all of them up but here are a few examples

48/55
48 goes from Wathamstow to London Bridge
55 Leyton to Oxford Circus

5/87
5 Becontree Heath to Canning Town
87 Barking-Romford

19/22
19 Finsbury Park to Battersea Bridge
22 Putney Common-Piccadilly Circus

10/390
10 Hammersmith to Kings Cross
390 Archway-Notting Hill Gate

Surely this shows that whilst there may be duplication along these routes they start and end at different places. They are not dead-running. And you need duplication of bus routes precisely because in the shared areas buses are used so well.

Bus services are by no means perfect but if your measures were put into force it would lead (as you yourself admit) to less buses. For instance if you increase the frequency of the 55 service and withdraw the 48 service you are going to mean you cant travel direct by bus from Walthamstow, Leyton and Clapton to Liverpool Street and London Bridge. If Ken Livingstone advocated this I can assure you it would be a very unpopular measure.

BarryB

You can get to Liverpool Street from Clapton on a 242 or on the One train. If you live in Leyton or Walthamstow and want to go to the City you have trains into Liverpool Street and the Central Line. Because of this, I would be surprised if anybody on a 48 from Walthamstow or Leyton goes any further than Hackney - although unless we see the stats we'll never know. But if a few people did, if there were through tickets where they could easily transfer to other services, with less buses on the road their journey might be quicker.

Point I was making is that I see no sense in something like thr 5/87 where the 5 terminates at Becontree Heath (which is a bus station in the middle of nowhere) when it could run on to Romford in 10 minutes, and be more ecomical by picking up the shoppers/workers for Romford the 87 currently does - instead it runs virtually empty along parts of the Longbridge Road. same with the 36 to Lewisham over the 436.

More buses equals better isn't necessarily true I think. If hundreds and hundreds of buses are running virtually empty everyday in Zone 1 with less cars on the road thanks to the CC, I don't think people are doing their jobs properly.

 

[BarryB]

You can get to Liverpool Street from Clapton on a 242 or on the One train. If you live in Leyton or Walthamstow and want to go to the City you have trains into Liverpool Street and the Central Line. Because of this, I would be surprised if anybody on a 48 from Walthamstow or Leyton goes any further than Hackney - although unless we see the stats we'll never know. But if a few people did, if there were through tickets where they could easily transfer to other services, with less buses on the road their journey might be quicker.

Point I was making is that I see no sense in something like thr 5/87 where the 5 terminates at Becontree Heath (which is a bus station in the middle of nowhere) when it could run on to Romford in 10 minutes, and be more ecomical by picking up the shoppers/workers for Romford the 87 currently does - instead it runs virtually empty along parts of the Longbridge Road. same with the 36 to Lewisham over the 436.

More buses equals better isn't necessarily true I think. If hundreds and hundreds of buses are running virtually empty everyday in Zone 1 with less cars on the road thanks to the CC, I don't think people ar
e doing their jobs properly.

242 certainly dosent go to my part of Clapton. I would have to get another bus just to get the 242. Im sure people do go direct from Walthamstow to Liverpool Street etc. Why should they be forced to change buses especially when under your proposals there would be less buses on the road. By all means bus routes shouldent be set in concrete. For instance the 388 bus from Hackney Wick to the City seems to be under used. But instead of reducing the number of buses under used buses could be relocated to those routes which are under pressure of heavy use.

BarryB

 

[Maggot]

More buses equals better isn't necessarily true I think. If hundreds and hundreds of buses are running virtually empty everyday in Zone 1 with less cars on the road thanks to the CC, I don't think people are doing their jobs properly.

But this isn't the case, buses in central London are largely quite busy.

 

[Harold Hill]

Im sure people do go direct from Walthamstow to Liverpool Street etc. Why should they be forced to change buses especially when under your proposals there would be less buses on the road. By all means bus routes shouldent be set in concrete. For instance the 388 bus from Hackney Wick to the City seems to be under used. But instead of reducing the number of buses under used buses could be relocated to those routes which are under pressure of heavy use.

BarryB

I'm sure people do too but I'd wager that as a percentage of total journeys on the 48 it doesn't justify 7/8 buses an hour making the same journey. I'm sure there are people in Chingford Hall that would commute to London by bus if they could but I doubt the numbers would justify a service.

FWIW, I'm not about cutting services to save money but where there's (I feel) wastage.

Maggot, I'd agree that is probably true in peak hours but the same frequencies are applied during the day. Go to Fleet St and look at the 4/5 routes that go to Waterloo and see how busy they are.

 

[BarryB]

I'm sure people do too but I'd wager that as a percentage of total journeys on the 48 it doesn't justify 7/8 buses an hour making the same journey. I'm sure there are people in Chingford Hall that would commute to London by bus if they could but I doubt the numbers would justify a service.

FWIW, I'm not about cutting services to save money but where there's (I feel) wastage.

Maggot, I'd agree that is probably true in peak hours but the same frequencies are applied during the day. Go to Fleet St and look at the 4/5 routes that go to Waterloo and see how busy they are.

I dont know the Chingford Hall area but from looking at a map of the area I cant see the comparison with the 48 service which at a guess serves a much more densely populated area.

And as you can see from my earlier remarks about the 388 rouute I to think there is scope for reducing or scrapping services but I would argue that there are other routes which could have extra buses on.

BarryB

 

[Orang Utan]

Clearly sad for some people, no?

You know, like the thousands of people who lined the streets and caused Oxford Street to grind to a halt as the last Routemaster went by?

Sad, sentimental fools the lot of them. Same with the Concorde lot.