Last State Using Electric Chair Retires "Old Sparky"

[TomUS]

Rubbish, it is a "cruel and unusual punishment".

Capital punishment is ineffective as a deterrent. If the reverse were true, then murder rates in the US would be much lower.

In the Middle Ages, punishments were designed to match the crime, in many cases, the punishments that were devised refelected the bloodlust of the mob. Captial punishment is state-sanctioned revenge carried out on behalf of the 'victim'; nothing moe, nothing less.

I don't view it to be cruel at all, considering the crimes it's used for. It is very unusual in the US (about .31% of murderers are executed.), and that's the problem. Ideally there should be one execution for every murder. About 17,000 murders in '06 should result in 17,000 executions.

State santioned revenge on behalf of the victim is absolutely appropriate. I'm tired of all the whining about the poor murderers while the victims are forgotten.

Deterrent? It probably is and I posted a link to an article that says 3 to 18 murders are deterred for each execution, depending on the study. Imagine the deterrent effect if every murderer was executed. Deterrence isn't really the issue though. Those that oppose it would do so even if it were proven to deter and those that support it would do so if it were proven not to deter. We know one thing-the executed murderer is "deterred" permanently. That's good enough for me.

But this summarizes my view on deterrence:

"If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."

John McAdams - Marquette University/Department of Political Science

 

[_angel_]

I don't view it to be cruel at all, considering the crimes it's used for. It is very unusual in the US (about .31% of murderers are executed.), and that's the problem. Ideally there should be one execution for every murder. About 17,000 murders in '06 should result in 17,000 executions.

State santioned revenge on behalf of the victim is absolutely appropriate. I'm tired of all the whining about the poor murderers while the victims are forgotten.

Deterrent? It probably is and I posted a link to an article that says 3 to 18 murders are deterred for each execution, depending on the study. Imagine the deterrent effect if every murderer was executed. Deterrence isn't really the issue though. Those that oppose it would do so even if it were proven to deter and those that support it would do so if it were proven not to deter. We know one thing-the executed murderer is "deterred" permanently. That's good enough for me.

But this summarizes my view on deterrence:

Well the main problem is you have to be 100% sure the people you're executing ARE guilty. That they have had the access to the best lawyers etc etc.

Also then think about when people were executed for what would now seem like lesser offences... stealing etc..? Did that stop them? No. Apparently pick pocketers increased their trade during public executions.

So much for deterrence.

Have the death penalty, unfortunately always you will execute an innocent person eventually.

 

[TomUS]

Well the main problem is you have to be 100% sure the people you're executing ARE guilty. That they have had the access to the best lawyers etc etc.

Also then think about when people were executed for what would now seem like lesser offences... stealing etc..? Did that stop them? No. Apparently pick pocketers increased their trade during public executions.

So much for deterrence.

Have the death penalty, unfortunately always you will execute an innocent person eventually.

The alternative to execution is life in prison, or nearly life in prison. I'm sure there are innocents who've spent their lives there. But few would advocate ending such imprisonment because of that.

After being sentenced to prison, a murderer can kill another prisoner or escape and kill again. The only way to make sure they will never hurt anyone again is to execute them. Take a life without good reason and your life is taken. It's simple justice.

 

[DexterTCN]

Not necessarilly.


Seducers of women (ie rapists) did have to pay a penalty ie they had to marry and support the woman he had raped.

To impose a penalty of fifty shekels upon the seducer (of an unbetrothed virgin) and enforce the other rules in connection with the case (Ex. 22:15-16)

That the violator (of an unbetrothed virgin) shall marry her (Deut. 22:28-29)

That one who has raped a damsel and has then (in accordance with the law) married her, may not divorce her (Deut. 22:29).


OK its not perfect as an anti rape law and it only covers unbetrothed virgins but it did recognise the damage that non consensual sex does to some extent. Therefore the bible does accept the existence of rape.

Correct.

If you raped her then the 'punishment' was that she had to stay with you forever....and presumably keep getting raped.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Correct.

If you raped her then the 'punishment' was that she had to stay with you forever....and presumably keep getting raped.

Or the man had to support the woman forever under the eyes of the community and can never ever divorce her. Which is another way of looking at it.

Putting my theological hat on for a moment you could take these commandments to say that rapists have to pay a considerable financial penalty in addition to a prison sentence which in my book is just.

 

[nino_savatte]

I don't view it to be cruel at all, considering the crimes it's used for. It is very unusual in the US (about .31% of murderers are executed.), and that's the problem. Ideally there should be one execution for every murder. About 17,000 murders in '06 should result in 17,000 executions.

State santioned revenge on behalf of the victim is absolutely appropriate. I'm tired of all the whining about the poor murderers while the victims are forgotten.

Deterrent? It probably is and I posted a link to an article that says 3 to 18 murders are deterred for each execution, depending on the study. Imagine the deterrent effect if every murderer was executed. Deterrence isn't really the issue though. Those that oppose it would do so even if it were proven to deter and those that support it would do so if it were proven not to deter. We know one thing-the executed murderer is "deterred" permanently. That's good enough for me.

But this summarizes my view on deterrence:

I get the feeling that you have done no reading around the issue of crime and punishment. If you had, you would realise that capital punishment has absolutely no effect of deterring would be murderers (in spite of what your quote says). I would imagine that your 'study' was conducted by a body with a vested interest in incarceration and punishment. Care to share your data with us?

In Northern European countries where the penal regime is more focussed on rehabilitation, rates of recidivism are far lower. Why do you think that is? Please don't say it's because it's "Europe". Your view of crime and punishment is, in common with many other "hang 'em and flog 'em" types, quite Medieval to say the least.

State santioned revenge on behalf of the victim is absolutely appropriate. I'm tired of all the whining about the poor murderers while the victims are forgotten.

Who is "whining about the poor murderers"? Will killing the perpetrator actually bring back the dead victim? Why should the state take on the role of avenger when it behaves in such an arbitrary and cruel fashion towards certain sections of society who have never done it any harm?

You'll be pressing your state legisalture to adopt the ducking stool and the iron maiden before long.

Also what about all those innocent people who have been executed? No posthumous pardon will ever bring them back from the dead. Texas, for example, is rather fond of executing people with severe learning difficulties...which leads me to another important point: literacy. Most hardened criminals are functionally illiterate. There is an established corelation between illiteracy and recidivism. Perhaps I'll try and dig out some stuff on this...not that it's likely to change your mind. Btw, there is no such thing as a "humane execution".

Didn't you once claim to be a 'liberal'?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

to be honest in a coutnry which sentences people to 500+ years in jail i think the death penalty should be optional and is proably prefferable to sending your remaining life rotting in jail.

Is it me or does the US penail system seem to have entirely forgotten about rehabilitation...

 

[subversplat]

Justice? Is it justice to let brutal murderers live or put them to sleep painlessly? No, I value the lives of the innocent over the lives of murderers. I think if the death penalty was widely and vigorously used, far more lives would be saved than taken.

In '06 there were over 17,000 murders in the US. In that year there were 53 executions. So, there is about a 1 in 321 chance (.31%) of getting executed for murder. This is not the policy of a society that is serious about protecting people from violent criminals.

It's well known that the more you torture a criminal, the more chance there is of their previous crimes being undone

 

[TomUS]

I get the feeling that you have done no reading around the issue of crime and punishment. If you had, you would realise that capital punishment has absolutely no effect of deterring would be murderers (in spite of what your quote says). I would imagine that your 'study' was conducted by a body with a vested interest in incarceration and punishment. Care to share your data with us?

This is the article. It's the only "data" I've seen:

_ Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University. (Other studies have estimated the deterred murders per execution at three, five and 14).

_ The Illinois moratorium on executions in 2000 led to 150 additional homicides over four years following, according to a 2006 study by professors at the University of Houston.

_ Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an Emory University professor.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/06/10/national/a110155D46.DTL

Also what about all those innocent people who have been executed?

Haven't been any documented cases of this I don't think. But I'm sure it has happened, as with life in prison or any penalty.

Didn't you once claim to be a 'liberal'?

Yep, and still do. But it depends on the issue. I think many US liberals support the DP. Most of the general pop does.

Almost two-thirds (64%) support the death penalty with 19 percent opposing and 12 percent saying that they neither support nor oppose;

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=807

 

[TomUS]

Is it me or does the US penail system seem to have entirely forgotten about rehabilitation...

Unfortunately, I think it was forgotten about long ago mostly.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is the article. It's the only "data" I've seen:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/06/10/national/a110155D46.DTL


Haven't been any documented cases of this I don't think. But I'm sure it has happened, as with life in prison or any penalty.

Yep, and still do. But it depends on the issue. I think many US liberals support the DP. Most of the general pop does.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=807

So who paid for this "research"? In common with most civilised nations, we lost the death penalty decades ago. The US is in a club along with Jamaica, Iran, North Korea, China and Zimbabwe.

Miscarriages of justice are probably more common than one would imagine. The possibility of the wrong person being executed for a crime that they did not commit, is far to high to countenance.

Again, if capital punishment is supposed to be an effective deterrent, then it has been a massive failure.

 

[nino_savatte]

The US has the largest prison population in the world. The numbers of prisoners in US prisons is well over 7 million. That's more than both China and Russia.

The US currently incarcerates more people than any other country in the world.

In China, which has a population of about 1.3 billion, there are more than 1.4 million inmates, according to Britain's Home Office. The US has a population of 286 million.

Russia, which has a population of 144 million, has a prison population of about 920,000.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/2925973.stm

Admittedly, this article is 5 years old but it is unlikely that the numbers of prisoners has suddenly dropped during the time since.

"Misguided policies that create harsher sentences for nonviolent drug offenses are disproportionately responsible for the increasing rates of women in prisons and jails," Marc Mauer, executive director of the Sentencing Project, a Washington-based group that supports criminal justice reform, said in a statement.

From 1995 to 2003, inmates incarcerated in federal prisons for drug offenses have accounted for 49 percent of total prison population growth.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/30/AR2006113000912.html

Here's an interesting article about the death penalty and miscarriages of justice.

However, at least 39 executions have been carried out in the United States in face of compelling evidence of innocence or serious doubt about guilt. While innocence has not been proven in any specific case, there is no reasonable doubt that some of the executed prisoners were innocent.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/issues/deathpenalty/executinginnocent/

Presidential pardons are useless.

 

[nino_savatte]

Here's a case study

Larry Eugene Moon was convicted and sentenced to death in 1988 in Catoosa County, Georgia, for a 1984 murder to which another man, Mickey Lee Davis, reportedly twice confessed. Despite doubts about Moon's guilt, he was executed on March 25, 2003, at the state prison in Jackson, Georgia.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wro...penalty/executinginnocent/gaMoonlsummary.html

 

[beeboo]

. This entire thing is part of his plan to abolish the death penalty in nebraska. He deliberately kept the electric chair as the method of execution because he knew it was going to be declared unconstitutional at some point, leaving the state without any way to kill someone for the forseeable future.

It's an interesting moral position. Presumably in the time he has blocked the move to lethal injection, people continued to be executed by electric chair? So by blocking this he has condemned more people to this harsh method of execution rather than the arguably more humane lethal injection?

I'm inclined to agree with his position - that the end justifies the means.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

It's an interesting moral position. Presumably in the time he has blocked the move to lethal injection, people continued to be executed by electric chair? So by blocking this he has condemned more people to this harsh method of execution rather than the arguably more humane lethal injection?

I'm inclined to agree with his position - that the end justifies the means.

There's been 3 executions since 1973.

Willy Otay who killed a woman in 1978 as part of a home robbery.

John Jubert, who was a serial killer of 10-yr-old paperboys.

And I can't remember the third.

 

[Poi E]

Hey Tom: how come from 1976 to 1996, the number of executions per year in the United States increased from 0 to just under 60. The homicide rate per 100,000 population remained constant at just under 10?

Prolific evidence out there as to its ineffectiveness, but I guess Tom likes killing and has made his mind up. Good model redneck.

 

[DexterTCN]

There's been 3 executions since 1973.

Willy Otay who killed a woman in 1978 as part of a home robbery.

John Jubert, who was a serial killer of 10-yr-old paperboys.

And I can't remember the third.

Where?

This link says about 150 in the last 3 years. link

And this one seems to back it up. link

And so does link

A serial killer who hunted 10 year old paperboys? Never heard of that one.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Where?

This link says about 150 in the last 3 years. link

And this one seems to back it up. link

And so does link

A serial killer who hunted 10 year old paperboys? Never heard of that one.

My state only executed three.

Here's some info about the serial killer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Joubert_(criminal)

 

[DexterTCN]

My state only executed three.

Here's some info about the serial killer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Joubert_(criminal)

Yeah, obviously mental.

Don't you think he was obviously mental?

 

[TomUS]

The US has the largest prison population in the world. The numbers of prisoners in US prisons is well over 7 million. That's more than both China and Russia.

Admittedly, this article is 5 years old but it is unlikely that the numbers of prisoners has suddenly dropped during the time since.

Here's an interesting article about the death penalty and miscarriages of justice.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/issues/deathpenalty/executinginnocent/

Presidential pardons are useless.

I couldn't agree more about the insanity of packing the prisons with relatively minor drug offenders. I recall a statistic that about 70% of those in Fed prison are there for drug stuff. The "war" on drugs has totally screwed up the system.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Going by that reasoning, nobody should be jailed because then I (the state) am a kidnapper and no better than a criminal. To me the question is not who's better or worse, but how can we use the tools available to try to protect people from violent criminals. One of those tools is the death penalty and not using it is immoral.

Yeah, but surely the reason for the death penalty is that society is better rid of certain individuals. That being the case, the object is to remove them, not to torture them.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Which part of "thou shalt not kill" do you not understand?


.

You're a christian? Then what about 'an eye for an eye'?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Aye well you cunts waited 3 years while our country was fucking fighting and dying to save people from Hitler.

As I recall you were too busy selling him weapons, as per fucking usual.

)

History of WW2, in 25 words or less.

Meanwhile, one reason that Franco won the Spanish Civil War, was the arms embargo against the legit Spanish govt, that your country enforced.

History is so complicated.

 

[nino_savatte]

I couldn't agree more about the insanity of packing the prisons with relatively minor drug offenders. I recall a statistic that about 70% of those in Fed prison are there for drug stuff. The "war" on drugs has totally screwed up the system.

I think the thing that concerns me most is the way in which people with learning difficulites are tried, convicted and executed. Texas is somewhat notorious for this sort of thing.

 

[frogwoman]

exactly ... it's the same in britain though so obviosuly its gonna be MUCH worse there ... i was reading on a prison reform website that some people who are convicted and sent to jail don't even realise why they're there, you cant really consider what they did a crime because they had the mental ages of kids, and then get picked on by the other prisoners for being "stupid" (and of course there are some very nasty fuckers there...) I don't really know what to do in those situations (apart from not killing them) because they're not "mentally ill" but you tend to think they really shouldn't be in jail either, let alone killed ...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

exactly ... it's the same in britain though so obviosuly its gonna be MUCH worse there ... i was reading on a prison reform website that some people who are convicted and sent to jail don't even realise why they're there, you cant really consider what they did a crime because they had the mental ages of kids, and then get picked on by the other prisoners for being "stupid" (and of course there are some very nasty fuckers there...) I don't really know what to do in those situations (apart from not killing them) because they're not "mentally ill" but you tend to think they really shouldn't be in jail either, let alone killed ...

There needs to be an increase in the number of secure hospital places for such people. Deffo shouldn't be in the nick.

 

[nino_savatte]

exactly ... it's the same in britain though so obviosuly its gonna be MUCH worse there ... i was reading on a prison reform website that some people who are convicted and sent to jail don't even realise why they're there, you cant really consider what they did a crime because they had the mental ages of kids, and then get picked on by the other prisoners for being "stupid" (and of course there are some very nasty fuckers there...) I don't really know what to do in those situations (apart from not killing them) because they're not "mentally ill" but you tend to think they really shouldn't be in jail either, let alone killed ...

Aye, this sort of thing tends to happen here too but not with the same regularity as it does in the US. The single biggest problem that needs to be tackled in prison is illiteracy imo.

 

[DexterTCN]

History of WW2, in 25 words or less.

Meanwhile, one reason that Franco won the Spanish Civil War, was the arms embargo against the legit Spanish govt, that your country enforced.

History is so complicated.

I didn't bring up Hitler to justify weapon ownership, sorry I mean death penalty.

I was watching the news when I posted that, sorry.