Landmarks in working class history

[newbie]

so what is the cause of the shadow, that's remained, unambiguously, the same?

 

[danny la rouge]

so what is the cause of the shadow, that's remained, unambiguously, the same?

Batman's lamp.

government is the shadow cast over society by business

 

[newbie]

repeat that as often as you like, it doesn't answer the question

But what's the same? Ask yourself that.

I don't know. What is?

 

[danny la rouge]

repeat that as often as you like, it doesn't answer the question

What's the question, then?

What I'm saying is transparent enough: power and wealth are concentrated in the hands of capital, not labour. Same then as now. And capital is waging a class war on labour. It is done now with more subtly and sophistication, but it is still done.

Your "confused picture" is not of that primary class relationship. It remains clear enough. An NHS does not change that primary relationship. The right to vote doesn't either. Nor state education. And so on. The power and wealth are still concentrated in the hands of capital.

If class, for you, is still important, what do you mean by it?

 

[Gmart]

It is done now with more subtly and sophistication, but it is still done.

The landowners and the rich take advantage of a system inherited from history which gives them many of the cards.

In the meantime the disempowered have just concentrated on enjoying themselves or whingeing. The have's blame the havenot's and they, in turn blame them right back. Actually the system needs to be reviewed - but you just try to get people to talk even here - people are so concerned about catching each other out saying something 'wrong', that they forget to engage in constructive debate.

For example, I started a thread entitled 'The Role of Government', in an effort to get people talking about what feasible alternative there might be - yet the thread dropped like a stone. Why? People aren't interested in real change...

This is why Blair/Brown get away with it. The elected dictatorship we have ensures that a certain number of people are well-educated enough to get into positions of power, and once there they find it impossible to change anything - in fact, once they get there they simply replace one authoritarian system with another at best, or get stymied by the civil service at worst.

We need to actually discuss a viable written constitution as a starting point. What needs to be on it - the rights and wrongs of our island.

We need vision, not more laws - what do we have to fear from a bit of idealism?

Defenders of the English system suggest that it is exactly the lack of definition which gives it its strength - government is completely unconstrained but elected.

Unfortunately this doesn't prevent the abuse of the minority by the majority.

It is a nasty, brutish and short world without a government but the best defence for this is not running around after unrealistic utopias. Europe's subsidiarity and open government should be our priority. Enshrining the rights of the people. Whatever we decide we need to apply our brains.

 

[danny la rouge]

I was reminded of this thread by a discussion in general, so I've bumped it so I can look at it later for relevant points.

 

[eoin_k]

Also the founding of the International Brigades to fight in Spain - can't really pin that to an actual date as such...

This fits with events described in Out Of The Ghetto by Joe Jacobs. Some rank and file communist party members were already in Barcleona for an alternative olympics and the party hierarchy wasn't over enthusiastic about their initial decision to stay and fight.

 

[Proper Tidy]

The Newport Rising 1839 or as John Humphrey's called it, the 19th century equivalent of Bloody Sunday

 

[ska invita]

Gordon Brown abolishing the 10p tax band and pitching a labour campaign to [quote ad nauseum] 'the middle classes' [unquote] (2009/2010). The final insult from New Labour

 

[butchersapron]

17th July 1877, start of the great railroad strike in the US. First national strike in the US. Railway workers in West Virgina struck against a 10% pay cut in the middle of a depression (against the background of forceful community expropriation of basic necessities that had been developing into a low-level war), Quickly spread to Baltimore, Pittsburgh and other places, circulation of struggle helped by the fact that this was well...a transport network, designed to transport stuff, no one said it couldn't be news or ideas. Then spread to other cities and their was mass reclaiming of the goods stuck on the freight trains - food primarily. 1000s of rail cars were destroyed and weeks of battle followed with 100+ dead. The workers - black and white - of the city of St Louis declared their strike committee had replaced the govt and declared the St Louis Commune under the red flag. A week later around 10 000 state gunmen invaded the town killed 20+ people and took the city back (another defeat for autonomism - SWP) A red commune in the heart of industrial america. Is this taught in the US schools i wonder?

The great railroad strike, 1877 - Howard Zinn

Trying to find a decent link for St Louis.

16-19th july is also the anniversary of the San Francisco General strike of 1934, really important in understanding labour/state/union relations in the US ever since.

 

[porp]

Talking about railways, how about the Taff Vale judgment of 1901? The HoL ruled that a union could be held responsible for damages suffered by an employer caused by a strike. Resulting organisation of the Labour Representation Committee and political pressure by TUC on Liberal candidates led to the reversal of this judgement after the 1906 election, with TUs enjoying immunity under law.

Would not be surprised to see this legal immunity be abolished by Tories/Lib-Dems with [heart sinking] widespread support of working people.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

How about the 1963 Bristol bus boycott? Arguably one of the things that led to race equality laws. Wiki page here

 

[eoin_k]

The Ciompi Revolt in Florence 1378 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciompi has caught my eye recently, but I still haven't had a chance to read up on it.

 

[newbie]

How about the 1963 Bristol bus boycott? Arguably one of the things that led to race equality laws. Wiki page here

mixed message milestone, isn't it? On the one hand the colour bar overturned by w/c agitation and, ultimately, an open vote by organised labour. On the other, the protective policy of an organised workforce defeated by wider w/c opinion expressed, at least in part, via consumer focused direct action.

 

[butchersapron]

Or, the undermining of the power of local union bureaucracies to impose their own prejudices internally and socially and portray it as protection.

 

[newbie]

yes, there's plenty of ways to read it at this distance.

I've just skimmed through the pamphlet that forms the basis for a lot of the wiki article, and that seems to suggest that the rank and file crews were driving the union policy, not their leaders. I can't c&p but see pp 26, 27. And that the likes of Wilson, Benn, bishops, TUC and so on were leaning on them.

But the pamphlet seems to be written from a time and a perspective which may not stand up a generation later. It's your neck of the woods, I guess you know more about it than I do.

 

[butchersapron]

yes, there's plenty of ways to read it at this distance.

I've just skimmed through the pamphlet that forms the basis for a lot of the wiki article, and that seems to suggest that the rank and file crews were driving the union policy, not their leaders. I can't c&p but see pp 26, 27. And that the likes of Wilson, Benn, bishops, TUC and so on were leaning on them.

But the pamphlet seems to be written from a time and a perspective which may not stand up a generation later. It's your neck of the woods, I guess you know more about it than I do.

Please don't say it like that.

On reflection your point is an interesting one - but it relies on being a union membership led thing. (i haven't time to look at the link now but will later) and also that consumer boycotts against union policy (if this is what happened) ushered in a new age. I can't think of any other examples.

 

[Frumious B.]

I don't think we've had this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre

 

[newbie]

I'm not sure what I shouldn't say like what, but I'll try not to in future

I have this residual belief that unions reflect their membership rather than, as the tory press would have it, push them around. It's somehow necessary to cling to these little bits of faith, although there's plenty to suggest it's over idealistic.

I don't think I was claiming that the consumer boycott aspect was a particular landmark. Unless I missed it the pamphlet doesn't really indicate that in itself it had much impact, except as a symbol.

 

[Frumious B.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grunwick_dispute

The 1968 Dagenham Ford strike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Ford_sewing_machinists_strike

 

[farmerbarleymow]

It's worth a visit to the Peoples' History Museum here in Manchester as they specialise in this as the name suggests.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

mixed message milestone, isn't it? On the one hand the colour bar overturned by w/c agitation and, ultimately, an open vote by organised labour. On the other, the protective policy of an organised workforce defeated by wider w/c opinion expressed, at least in part, via consumer focused direct action.

yes - there are mixed messages in quite a few things from the past, though.

you are right in that it didn't reflect all that well on (at the very least bits of) the trade union movement at the time, although Bristol Omnibus' management were also against the idea of employing "coloured" traffic staff at that time.

There are other incidents in relatively recent history (e.g. London dockers striking / marching in support of Enoch Powell - more here) which don't reflect all that well on (again at least bits of) the rank & file of (some) unions. And there were at least a few unofficial strikes / disputes on London buses after 1945 when the management decided that women would continue to be employed / recruited as bus conductors (as they had been during the war years - the previous generation of women conductors recruited in 1914-18 all had to leave when the men came back from military service)

I'm not sure what the answer is. I am uneasy in trying to pretend such things didn't exist. Having said that, some people out there will use them to criticise unions in general - although that will probably be the same people who criticise/d unions for being "politically correct loony left" when they did try to make more effort on equalities issues...

 

[newbie]

yes - there are mixed messages in quite a few things from the past, though.

of course there are but to be worthy of the accolade landmark there should be some clarity, surely? The gradual introduction of legislation against discrimination (racial and other) amounts to as great a change for the working class as a whole as eg universal suffrage or the state pension. But if it's not clear what this boycott meant, part of a last gasp attempt to hold back the tide of equality or a creditable change of mind and attitude, what does it signify? indeed, from what I've read it's not even particularly clear where the root of the problem really was: management, the union bureaucracy or the workforce as a whole (or a few key individuals within one or other of them).


However, it's a fascinating story, one I knew nothing about, and I've greatly enjoyed reading about it, so I'm grateful you posted about it. And the more I've read, the more interesting it gets, eg the career progression of the community activist Paul Stephenson, who initiated and led the boycott.

I'm not sure what the answer is. I am uneasy in trying to pretend such things didn't exist.

of course. that achieves nothing and is politically stupid.

There are lots of ways to read this: one is that when the workforce were asked, only slightly forcefully, to reconsider their longstanding policy they realised it was untenable and changed their minds without much fuss. Given what was happening in the US at the time- the Birmingham Alabama campaign was exactly contemporary- this was very much to their credit, and it's at least in part thanks to them that this did not become a greater, and much more discreditable, landmark.

 

[butchersapron]

Paul Stephenson is a good friend of the BRHG. I had a good talk with him at the unveiling of a plaque for Thomas Clarkson at the Seven Stars. Was quite insistent he DID NOT want to talk about the boycott again

 

[Pickman's model]

the land league in ireland, which although directed from above helped significantly alter patterns of land tenure in ireland and the process was not without occasional bursts of violence

 

[TruXta]

For Norway:

The economic implosion of the shipping and merchant class that was at the time centered around the southern town of Arendal, largely precipitated by the reckless speculation and fraud (much like a Ponzi scheme) by shipping magnate and bank director Axel Nicolai Herlofson. It led to widespread destitution and unemployment in the area, with the consequence that the various local/regional labour associations had a huge upsurge in activity, directly leading to the founding of the Norwegian Labour Party in 1887. The two counties of Vest-Agder and Aust-Agder are still feeling the effects of these events - partly because it led to a surge in immigration to the States, taking skilled labour out of the area.

 

[newbie]

Paul Stephenson is a good friend of the BRHG. I had a good talk with him at the unveiling of a plaque for Thomas Clarkson at the Seven Stars. Was quite insistent he DID NOT want to talk about the boycott again

see his point, I don't suppose Madge Dresser, mentioned on yr vid, does either.

 

[butchersapron]

Madge is a yank prof and loves talking about that stuff.

 

[newbie]

ah, that explains some of the questions marks arising from her pamphlet.

 

[butchersapron]

1842 General Strike -the defeat of which has serious ling term consequences (final death of chartism, union/political split, strengthening of the hand of reformist steady as she goes unionism, harm to idea of independent w/c political representation, north vs south split in labour movement among others)