"Landlords are social parasites. They’re the last people we should be honouring"

[editor]

In all honesty, it’s also not great for people to suddenly discover they have no pension. Particularly when they’ve only done what society has encouraged them to do.

Hang on: 'society' didn't tell them to buy up houses and rent them out for big fat juicy profit. That was entirely their choice.

 

[kabbes]

If someone had put their pension into, say, CFDs, I don't suppose either of us would be very sympathetic when they lost it. I don't see that much distance, only timeframes, between that decision and entering into heavily leveraged, interest-only BTL mortgages. Furthermore, were the shoe on the other foot, I think we would find a strong correlation between the losers in this scenario and the type of people who would point towards individual responsibility should the less fortunate come to harm, so to my mind, cries of mis-selling and pressure have questionable merit.

Is it just the leveraging that bothers you then? Those who own multiple properties paid up in full have been socially and fiscally responsible?

 

[kabbes]

Hang on: 'society' didn't tell them to buy up houses and rent them out for big fat juicy profit. That was entirely their choice.

Oh, I disagree. Society has encouraged it by making it easy to do, not regulating it and writing endless lifestyle pieces about what a good idea it is.

 

[editor]

Oh, I disagree. Society has encouraged it by making it easy to do, not regulating it and writing endless lifestyle pieces about what a good idea it is.

But, again, it's still a personal choice whether you wish to pursue fat profits from exploiting tenants.

 

[kabbes]

But, again, it's still a personal choice whether you wish to pursue fat profits from exploiting tenants.

I'm not a big fan of the "personal choice" argument for social issues. I don't view it as "personal choice" when people get hooked on drugs or end up in a chain of violence, and I don't view it as "personal choice" when people take a path they are actively encouraged to take in the insanely complicated world of personal finance.

 

[Ranbay]

At the end of it you 'make' a house which you can sell for $$$$$, all paid for by your tenants.

yeah but i can't sell it becuse it's worth about 20k less than when i bought it in 2007 when i was single.... so should i sell it now and be down 15k or so or what? please let me know ASAP.

 

[editor]

I'm not a big fan of the "personal choice" argument for social issues. I don't view it as "personal choice" when people get hooked on drugs or end up in a chain of violence, and I don't view it as "personal choice" when people take a path they are actively encouraged to take in the insanely complicated world of personal finance.

So buying up homes to rent out for fat personal profit is a "social issue" now?

And if it's not a personal choice, who the fuck is forcing them to squeeze tenants dry in the name of profit?

 

[Ranbay]

If it’s paying off the mortgage, you are making a profit. That’s capital you’re accumulating. Sell the place at the end with no mortgage and the whole sum you’ve made is a combination of rental profit and house price growth.

yeah but i can't sell it becuse it's worth about 20k less than when i bought it in 2007 when i was single.... so should i sell it now and be down 15k or so or what? please let me know ASAP.

 

[editor]

yeah but i can't sell it becuse it's worth about 20k less than when i bought it in 2007 when i was single.... so should i sell it now and be down 15k or so or what? please let me know ASAP.

But you've still derived an income and had your mortgage paid off.

 

[Ranbay]

I think buying a house that you can live in later (or sell) has to count.

yeah but i can't sell it becuse it's worth about 20k less than when i bought it in 2007 when i was single.... so should i sell it now and be down 15k or so or what? please let me know ASAP.

 

[Slo-mo]

6) Along with the above, both tenant and landlord need a lot more than two months notice.

For houses and self contained flats that might be fair enough, but for HMOs and bedsitters you normally only have to give one month's notice to leave. I'd hate to see that raised, certainly not to more than two months as you are proposing.

 

[Ranbay]

But you've still derived an income and had your mortgage paid off.

I havent had it paid off yet.... let me know what i shoud do please ASAP.

 

[kabbes]

So buying up homes to rent out for fat personal profit is a "social issue" now?

Of course it is. If it wasn't a social issue, we wouldn't be discussing it. Socially, we would like not to have rent be the source of profit it currently is.

And if it's not a personal choice, who the fuck is forcing them to squeeze tenants dry in the name of profit?

Everything is a choice. People have agency. Equally, however, they make those choices in circumstances not of their own choosing. They also make them in the context of the society they live in. People are expected in our society to have individual responsibility for their old age. To achieve this, they are expected to make complex and crucial financial decisions based on little personal knowledge or experience. They look to wider society for a guide on what to do. Personal choices do not exist in a vacuum.

 

[editor]

I havent had it paid off yet.... let me know what i shoud do please ASAP.

You said earlier that your tenants were 'paying off your mortgage.'

 

[Ranbay]

But you've still derived an income and had your mortgage paid off.

PS im renting another place becuase i can't afford to move back into since i seperated from my wife... let me know what i should do please.

 

[editor]

Personal choices do not exist in a vacuum.

Indeed they don't. Morals and ethics should be in there somewhere.

 

[Ranbay]

You said earlier that your tenants were 'paying off your mortgage.'

Yeah they are, it's still about 15k in negative equity, should i kick them out now then?

 

[editor]

Yeah they are, it's still about 15k in negative equity, should i kick them out now then?

I have no interest, experience or desire in being a landlord so I'm afraid I can't help you.

 

[kabbes]

yeah but i can't sell it becuse it's worth about 20k less than when i bought it in 2007 when i was single.... so should i sell it now and be down 15k or so or what? please let me know ASAP.

What do *I* think you should do? I'm not the one insisting everybody is making some kind of unconstrained free choice in a social vacuum. In the context of the society you live in, I think you should continue to rent it out and you would be foolish to do otherwise. Let's not pretend that means you aren't making a profit from that rent, though.

I find it extraordinary that you would own a place worth 20k less than 2007, though. House prices across the board are about 20% higher than mid-2007 (see this). You have been incredibly unlucky if your place is actually worth less.

 

[mauvais]

Is it just the leveraging that bothers you then? Those who own multiple properties paid up in full have been socially and fiscally responsible?

Almost all for-profit landlordism is an ill, but certainly leveraged BTL provokes more ire in me than other forms. As well as boiling the pot at a far greater rate, it enables hobbyist landlords easy access to speculation at their own neighbours' & peers' expense. I'm very far from sure that a large capital requirement produces better landlords, but it does at least retain a relatively clear divide on traditional class lines rather than enabling half the people in the same sad little boat to stab the others in the back. The political consequences are obvious.

 

[editor]

What do *I* think you should do? I'm not the one insisting everybody is making some kind of unconstrained free choice in a social vacuum. In the context of the society you live in, I think you should continue to rent it out and you would be foolish to do otherwise. Let's not pretend that means you aren't making a profit from that rent, though.

I find it extraordinary that you would own a place worth 20k less than 2007, though. House prices across the board are about 20% higher than mid-2007 (see this). You have been incredibly unlucky if your place is actually worth less.

Indeed.

 

[DexterTCN]

UK governments consistently refuse to invest in social housing (as everyone knows), the profits from btl are taxable (via self-assessment) and as said by Ranbay many people are caught in a trap as they can't afford to sell the properties with negative equity.

If the owner defaults and the property is repossessed then that creates homeless people and just gives the capital/equity to the mortgage provider.

There's nothing wrong with btl if there is enough social housing.

A good accountant can be a big help for people renting out properties, you could well find yourself in a position where the taxman owes you money.

 

[Ranbay]

What do *I* think you should do? I'm not the one insisting everybody is making some kind of unconstrained free choice in a social vacuum. In the context of the society you live in, I think you should continue to rent it out and you would be foolish to do otherwise. Let's not pretend that means you aren't making a profit from that rent, though.

I find it extraordinary that you would own a place worth 20k less than 2007, though. House prices across the board are about 20% higher than mid-2007 (see this). You have been incredibly unlucky if your place is actually worth less.

Lower Roath, Splott.... 110% mortage, peak price before the crash, was intrest only while i lived there for first 4 years.

 

[editor]

Almost all for-profit landlordism is an ill, but certainly leveraged BTL provokes more ire in me than other forms. As well as boiling the pot at a far greater rate, it enables hobbyist landlords easy access to speculation at their own neighbours' & peers' expense. I'm very far from sure that a large capital requirement produces better landlords, but it does at least retain a relatively clear divide on traditional class lines rather than enabling half the people in the same sad little boat to stab the others in the back. The political consequences are obvious.

And all these smug BTL landlord cunts on those execrable TV shows bragging about how much money they've made from some shiny new BTL-targeted development or poor sod's repossessed home.

 

[Ranbay]

I have no interest, experience or desire in being a landlord so I'm afraid I can't help you.

STFU then

 

[editor]

Lower Roath, Splott.... 110% mortage, peak price before the crash, was intrest only while i lived there for first 4 years.

Things appear to be looking up: Cardiff property prices rising as fast as in London | CPS Homes

Overall sold prices in Roath over the last year were 4% up on the previous year and 9% up on the 2015 level of £188,853.
House Prices in Roath, Cardiff, Cardiff (County of)

 

[Slo-mo]

Interest only mortgages should never have been allowed, IMHO, and certainly not at 110%. I do feel sorry for some people who were sold them.

 

[editor]

STFU then

Then quit asking questions.

 

[kabbes]

Almost all for-profit landlordism is an ill, but certainly leveraged BTL provokes more ire in me than other forms. As well as boiling the pot at a far greater rate, it enables hobbyist landlords easy access to speculation at their own neighbours' & peers' expense. I'm very far from sure that a large capital requirement produces better landlords, but it does at least retain a relatively clear divide on traditional class lines rather than enabling half the people in the same sad little boat to stab the others in the back. The political consequences are obvious.

Yes, the removal of access to leverage is a good thing, I think. The difference is that I don't get personally angry with those who are doing what has so much been considered a socially acceptable option that, as discussed at the start of the thread, we actually give awards to those who do it. I prefer to remove the factors that are driving the model one at a time until the whole thing is back where it should be.

Now don't get me wrong -- within the context of being a landlord, people can then take different approaches to how they treat their tenants. I have no sympathy with the idea that owning a property makes it acceptable to treat those who live in it like shit. That's a completely different situation. I'd still like it properly legislated, mind, and not just leave it to individual conscience.

 

[Ranbay]

Things appear to be looking up: Cardiff property prices rising as fast as in London | CPS Homes

It's a flat, it's on Bertram street where the Bertram pub was, you know the place and area, My mate Barry runs CPS homes.

£110,000 for a two bed flat.... it's not worth that now... so yeah, how fucking evil i am.