Labour + Anti Semitism

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by cantsin, Apr 7, 2016.

  1. Knotted

    Knotted Sweet when you stir it up

    Brian Klug on (leftwing) anti-Zionism and anti-semitism:
    Zionism, Antisemitism and the Left Today • Jewish Voice for Labour

    I agree with this and I think with the level of dickishness around the subjects of Israel and Zionism it should be widely distributed.

    There is a sense in which people like Ken Livingstone and Tony Greenstein bring it on themselves. At the same time, there's no question that they should be readmitted to the Labour Party. Dickishness should not mean expulsions.
     
    cantsin and The Pale King like this.
  2. agricola

    agricola a genuine importer of owls

    Livingstone should be kept out, not so much for what he said (which was bad enough) but because he knew what damage it would do, did it anyway and then kept doing it.
     
    tim likes this.
  3. Knotted

    Knotted Sweet when you stir it up

    "We'll expel you not because of what you said but because of how it will get exploited." That's really shit. Sure the Labour Party thinks that way, but this is Urban75. We don't lower ourselves to the standards of Labour Party apparatchiks. Do we?
     
  4. killer b

    killer b Gazing vacantly at a plate of mince

    Quite. We'd reward that kind of strategic incompetence with an ice pick.
     
    NoXion, Sue, redsquirrel and 3 others like this.
  5. Knotted

    Knotted Sweet when you stir it up

    Over-reacting to this does broader damage. There are definitely a small number Labour members who are anti-semites and there are many more who are on the cusp. Given the conspiratorial nature of anti-semitism - how much damage does it do to say that you can't discuss the Zionist movement's relation to the Nazis in the 1930's? Some bad publicity for the Labour Party does not cut it compared to the broader questions involved. Going back to the Brian Klug piece, there needs to be a bit of calm discussion on these issues. Who benefits from polarisation here?
     
  6. Knotted

    Knotted Sweet when you stir it up

    Incidentally Moshe Machover was accused of anti-semitism for defending Ken Livingstone and repeating and elabourating on his thesis. He also "damaged" the Labour Party in doing so ie. there were some bad headlines. Are you going after him as well? He's a much more respected figure for lefties than Livingstone is, but his crimes are the same. How have the immediate interests of the Labour Party become so vital around here?
     
  7. killer b

    killer b Gazing vacantly at a plate of mince

    Have the immediate interests of the Labour Party become vital round here?

    FWIW: I would want Greenstein out of any group I was a member of. Partly because the calm discussion which you think is so necessary simply is isn't possible with him involved.
     
  8. Knotted

    Knotted Sweet when you stir it up

    I used to be a member of the Scottish Socialist Party at the time it was quite big and making headway. As you can probably imagine it had more than its fair share of Tony Greensteins (and worse, much worse) and yet there was a lot of calm discussion eg. over hot potatoes such as Northern Ireland, drugs, prostitution and homophobia (there was a small but very vocal homophobic contingent). We kind of managed. Admittedly it then all fell a part. But surely the Labour Party can cope with Greenstein. The broader point is that this is not just a bureaucratic measure against a troublesome individual (and to be fair he's more just a bit of prick than any real trouble), this is part of a struggle for the control of the Labour Party.
     
  9. doodlelogic

    doodlelogic arbitrary message here

    It all comes back to Steve Cohen's pamphlet.
     
  10. Smoking kills

    Smoking kills Well-Known Member

    I think you may be giving Ken too much credit in the self or political awareness stakes. I never thought his love of amphibious skin shedding colour changing reptiles was a coincidence ifykwim.
    Surely it would be worth re-admitting him just to piss John Mann off?
     
    19force8 likes this.
  11. tim

    tim Well-Known Member

    At least he made the buses run on time!
     
  12. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

  13. Rutita1

    Rutita1 Scum with no integrity, apparently.

    Humirax likes this.
  14. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

    He said Zionism is Jewish anti-semitism, zionists were nazis collaborators, and thatcher was a legitimate target.

    It is - in a very small number of places
     
  15. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    What’s a Yiddish name? :facepalm:
     
    tim and MadeInBedlam like this.
  16. MadeInBedlam

    MadeInBedlam 'He bloody well thinks he's staff!'

    I was going to politely point out that ‘greenstein’ is the anglicisation of a German surname. There’s nothing Yiddish about it.

    Also not sure what’s sad about someone with an Ashkenazi background being expelled for antisemism. Why the sad face Rutita1 (genuine question, not sure what you’re getting at with your emoji)
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  17. Humirax

    Humirax Well-Known Member

    What did this Greenstein fella say that was so antisemitic? If someone could provide a quote that would be much appreciated. I'm not suprised he got the boot though, personally attacking and insulting members of your own party like that isn't going to do you any favours.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  18. Humirax

    Humirax Well-Known Member

    I'd say that the zionist movement has certainly capitalized on anti-semitism (this is obvious and is something that Norman G. Finkelstein has explored and written about) and my understanding is that they were not exactly co-operative regarding helping non-zionist jewish holocaust victims. My understanding is that the zionist movement (or atleast a part of that movement) were only too happy for non-zionist jews to perish and that they acknowledged the convenience of this. Having said that it has been some time since I examined this topic and if I'm incorrect then it would be great if someone could put me right.

    I remember reading one of Finkelstein's books some years ago (The Holocaust Industry) and it was interesting and I recommend that people read it, he explores how the right-wing jews never liked to talk about the holocaust immediately after the war because it didn't at all aid their cause to bring people's attention to certain German scientists and whose side they were on after the war. In comparison, left-wing jews were open about the holocaust and were enthusiastic that we learned from it. Finkelstein's book is also interesting in other ways.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  19. 19force8

    19force8 For the avoidance of faith

    According to Tony he wasn't expelled for anti-semitism as such, but for being offensive to/about other Labour Party members:
    Full tedious details here: Tony Greenstein's Blog

    Honestly, I don't think the guy's an anti-semite, but he is one of those hair trigger ranters and grudge bearers few, if any, political parties would be able tolerate for long.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  20. 19force8

    19force8 For the avoidance of faith

    It seems that holocaust survivors embarrass Israel in more ways than one. For example, by pointing out the similarities between Israel's treatment of African refugees and Eichman's expulsion of Jews from Vienna.
     
  21. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    Great, Finkelstein again. Beloved by David Irving and neo-nazis everywhere.
     
  22. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Nice twist on the ad hom there, avoiding dealing with the substance of his work.
     
  23. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    I generally ignore your posts nowadays, but that is so stupid it deserves comment.
     
  24. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    I don't remember anything in it suggesting or supporting the idea that right wing Jews used the holocaust as an opportunity to get rid of left wing Jews or others who opposed their political positions. Are you sure?
     
  25. 19force8

    19force8 For the avoidance of faith

    I think there might be some conflation here between a suggestion that zionists in Palestine during WWII didn't concern themselves unduly about the fate of europe's jews, and the willingness of right wingers in the 1950s to throw anti-nazi jews under the McCarthyite bus.
     
    Cloo likes this.
  26. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    If so, it's rather a serious conflation isn't it?
     
  27. 19force8

    19force8 For the avoidance of faith

    And yet it's not an uncommon view in certain quarters. This from the Jerusalem Post:

    The Holocaust Industry: Finkelstein, Gary Spedding and the Anti-Israel Activist 2.0 - Blogs - Jerusalem Post

    Also an interesting insight into the history of G Spedding.
     
  28. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

  29. 19force8

    19force8 For the avoidance of faith

    Absolutely, but as Humirax said he wasn't sure of this he's open to being corrected. I'm not in a position to do so as it's years since I read the book and I don't have access to check at the moment.
     
  30. 19force8

    19force8 For the avoidance of faith

    Crossed wires, this was a reference to bimble's view of Finkelstein as a friend of David Irving
     

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