Labour after the next election

[agricola]

New Labour..... Increased Aid to Developing Countries.
The Minimum Wage.....The Minimum Income guarantee.....The Educational Maintenance Allowance.......Doubled spending on Health and Education.....

Made plenty of mistakes id say......but still far far better than the Tories....

This is one of the key problems with examining NL and its legacy - as has been pointed out by taffboy, in that the indefensible finds defenders. Take just one of tbaldwins above comments, for instance - about "doubled spending on health and education".

Quite a lot of the "new" money spent on both health and education of course never actually existed outside of press releases and other forms of spin- the most infamous example, exposed by Peter Oborne and ignored by large parts of the lobby, was the "extra" £50 billion of NHS funding promised in 1997 by Brown that actually came almost entirely from pre-existing and pre-committed Tory funding. Brown's consistent tactic - most recently seen in the G20 "success" - has been to inflate what he has spent when celebrating a success, and to hide or deny what he has spent when faced with a failure.

Secondly, what money has been spent has usually gone either to PFI (the idiocy of which is nicely explained here, with the continuing existence of it despite the Government ultimately funding itself whilst paying firms to take its money whilst doing so is explained here) or has been spent in line with Government policy, which in both spheres has been usually either pointless (City Academies), dangerous (the removal of CHCs, target-setting) or needless (such as the current "health checks for the over-40s" wheeze), or a combination of the three. Often, such policy has usually been implemented with the apparent aim of privatizing whatever it involves.

PFI was a Tory invention, but the blind faith (at best - the strong link between PFI-related firms and civil servants who go on to work for them is reasonably clear) that it has been implemented by this Government, even in the face of bitter opposition from locals and indeed common sense, should be enough to make any Labour supporter blush and question their allegiance to the party. It has been a disaster and its difficult to think of any success story related to it.

 

[pingupete]

Well thats all very nice and fashionable taffyboy.....but the thing is that until there is a credible pragmatic left alternative you have a choice between a Tory or Labour government.....And as the media always has been mostly controlled by Tories it suits them to highlight every contentious move or cock up Labour makes....But where is your alternative? You whinge away every day...but really what do have to say?

It involves tactically looking at all the marginal seats.

As a general principle, green/left candidates avoid standing or running campaigns in Lab/Tory marginals (and Lib Dem/Tory ones) where the level of swing would give Cameron an overall majority.

As a general principle, green/left candidates ensuring they stand in every seat where a smaller swing is required by the Tories to win a seat from Labour, so that for all the very valid reasons taffboy outlines, Labour are not permitted to cling onto power.

Green/left candidates will hurt the Labour vote compared to the Tory vote, just as in 2005, the presence of UKIP candidates arguably enabled Labour to hold onto 12 more seats than they would have done otherwise.

The influence of the first Green MP(s), Plaid and SNP, and any left leaning MPs would be tangible. I would also hope that the Lib Dems would avoid completely caving in on PR.

 

[Zachor]

New Labour..... Increased Aid to Developing Countries.

Wasted on piss poor projects and corruption.

The Minimum Wage.....The Minimum Income guarantee..

Min wage has become not a minimum wage but an 'average wage' not a good thing. The importation of cheap labour has meant that the min wage is now worth less than it should have done. Another cock up.

...The Educational Maintenance Allowance.......Doubled spending on Health and Education.....

Much of the spending on Health and Edcuation was wasted on piss poor management. Agaist these huge wastages the success of the EMA pales into insignificance.

Made plenty of mistakes id say......but still far far better than the Tories....

I used to think that not anymore. The quicker NL are gone the better. As I've said before govts are like nappies they need changing often or they smell.

The small 'gains' we've had under NL are in no way comparable to the freedoms we've lost. We've sold our birthright for fuck all basically.

 

[tbaldwin]

. As I've said before govts are like nappies they need changing often or they smell.
.

Maybe but i dont really think its a particularly good idea to replace a nappie with one from the bin that is completely full of shit........

As i said before where is the alternative to Labour?

 

[Zachor]

Maybe but i dont really think its a particularly good idea to replace a nappie with one from the bin that is completely full of shit........

From observing the Tories over the years it does look like to a large extent that the bin has been emptied. Yes the Tories have their headcases but the tories are now looking much more trustable with the country than NL.

As i said before where is the alternative to Labour?

The only effective alternative is the new very much changed Tory party. Its pointless to think of the Thatcher Tory Party and think that it has anything to do with the party presenting itself for election now.

I consider the Lib Dems to be just as much of a gillded turd as NL are. Opportunistic slime a lot of the time sadly which is a shame as they coudl have been so much better.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Well thats all very nice and fashionable taffyboy.....but the thing is that until there is a credible pragmatic left alternative you have a choice between a Tory or Labour government.....And as the media always has been mostly controlled by Tories it suits them to highlight every contentious move or cock up Labour makes....But where is your alternative? You whinge away every day...but really what do have to say?

"nice and fashionable" have nothing to do with it. Obfuscating the issues of right wing authoritarian government seem to have a lot to do with it from you POV, hypothecating about some parallel universe where it wasnt Labour who had been up to very little good for 12 years.

I also note that deriding views as "fashionable" is a key piece of standard reactionary rhetoric.

The alternative? Well, guess who didnt reform the electoral system like they said they would look at? Guess whose failure to do so will probably see the other tories get back in?

Nonetheless I can think of at least 4 parties with representation in the UK who are less unworthy of a vote than the disgusting Labour Party.

 

[tbaldwin]

So taffboy you have no alternative....Just hysteria and depression....

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

So taffboy you have no alternative....Just hysteria and depression....

Oh dear, you didn't read my last sentence, and that's just with reference to establishment party politics.

I answered your point, you made up that I didnt and then didn't answer mine.

Hush, now
What's that sound?
Baldwin's moving goalposts around.


What a lot of endless dissembling and self delusion, ever considered a career in the Labour Party?

 

[kyser_soze]

I can't wait until we have a Tory government TBH as it'll be an interesting litmus test on how far to the right Labour went. There will be no noticing the diffence between Labour and Tory authoritarianism (and lets face it, both left and right have sections of themselves with authoritarian leanings) for sure, but when it comes to public spending...well, we'll see.

 

[agricola]

So taffboy you have no alternative....Just hysteria and depression....

Utter bollocks. For a start, given that your refrain seems to consist entirely of "well, the Tories would be worse!" its entirely hypocritical to claim taffboy has no alternative.

If the Tories were in power and doing the same stuff then the nonsensical and dangerous policies of this Government would be opposed far more than they are being at present, not least by yourself.

 

[tbaldwin]

In read your last point taffboy just i thought it was a joke.....
My point is that people like you with your hysterical nonsense can never get their act together...The so called Left in this country have launched attempt after attempt to provide some sparkling new alternative to New labour and it has all ended up in the same shit heap....Problem is that along with the hysteria when it comes to being authoritarian and undemocratic most of you are firmly to the right of Peter Mandelson.....

 

[tbaldwin]

Utter bollocks. For a start, given that your refrain seems to consist entirely of "well, the Tories would be worse!" its entirely hypocritical to claim taffboy has no alternative.

If the Tories were in power and doing the same stuff then the nonsensical and dangerous policies of this Government would be opposed far more than they are being at present, not least by yourself.

1 Why is that Hypocritical?
2 Really ? You sure?

 

[agricola]

1 Why is that Hypocritical?
2 Really ? You sure?

1 - arent you attacking taffboy for having "no alternative....Just hysteria and depression..." whilst doing exactly the same yourself?
2 - Yes, I am sure that Labour would be opposing a hypothetical Tory Government that did what NL has done since 1997.

 

[tbaldwin]

1 No i am not attacking him...But yes i am pointing out he seems to have no real alternative....And a lot of his posts are hysterical....Not sure how that makes me hypocritical?
2 Yes i am sure Labour would attack the Tories....Not so sure that a Tory govt would have ever increased public spending in the same way and bought in a minimum wage,minimum income guarantee,ema etc....

Personally id like to see an alternative to Labour from the Left....But i dont think hysteria and exaggeration is going to help.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

In read your last point taffboy just i thought it was a joke.....My point is that people like you with your hysterical nonsense can never get their act together...The so called Left in this country have launched attempt after attempt to provide some sparkling new alternative to New labour and it has all ended up in the same shit heap....Problem is that along with the hysteria when it comes to being authoritarian and undemocratic most of you are firmly to the right of Peter Mandelson.....

I didn't mention "left", none of the partys I am thinking of are overtly left. All have their acts together to the point of having many elected representitives. My criterea was that they are less disgusting than the Labour Party.

I share some of your scepticism about the left's ability to organise coherently, but as usual it is more of a diversion from the case in point.

What the left do or dont do has little to do with how vile the Labour Party are, or how increasingly pathetic their dwindling band of apologists come across as.

 

[treelover]

The R/W papers, DM, Times, etc are reporting there is yet another 'battle for the soul of the LP' going on, with the blairites/modernisers wanting a real slash and burn budget, etc including as i have always suspected will happen: massive cuts in benefits, (more than in the WRB) more means testings, etc, eg child benefit(though some would argue this could be less universal) They also want a much smaller state, read more privatisation, etc.

 

[brasicritique]

IMO after the next election nushambore will move further rightwards, or continue with the neo-con agenda as it were. The labour heartland vote is well on its way to collapsing. Maybe not at the next election but definately over the next ten years. I think that the UK policitcal elite, right across the political spectrum are so out of touch that they are in for a nasty suprise. People ar every very very angry and this is before the full force of this economic restructuring is felt, despite the best efforts of the media to play it all down. There are a number of things happening in National politics which IMO need to be considered in relation to the thread title.

In the context of the effects of globalisation on the UK , in tandem with the current depression , the main policies of all three main parties are now SOLEY about insulating middle britain from these ongoing structural social and economic changes. This is the only purpose for UK political parties in the 21st century. The link/article that the OP posted, is evidence of this as it is a boris special about education and social mobility. Yes the left got rid of grammer schools - But the Tories are not going to bring them back. Even the tories latest idea with regards to social mobility is actually nothing more than a social cleansing charter. Social mobility in the UK is DEAD. It is GONE. Why ? Because for the forseeable future it is not economically viable. This 22 year old vacuous, spoilt, emily benn lite, piece of shit being parachuted in is just another example of a growing political-neo-aristocracy, and the triumph of mummy and daddy politics over talent.

Everywhere you look from welfare to education to you will see that the main idea driving these policies is not a desire to educate or retrain people. Its not even about generating longterm economic proseprity. It is about a bunch of thick but very rich people policing the lower middleclass / working/ underclass. Thats is all UK politics is about now. Hence the total lack of ideas from the tories, labour, and lib dems in the face of this economic depression. And that is why after the next election labour will continue as if nothing has happened. It will make all the right noises about change and hypocritical scum like crudeass will hog the limelight and get a seat in th eopposition cabinet. But thats it . labour has betrayed the people it was formed to serve and will continue to do so after the next election

 

[Kaka Tim]

New Labour didn't 'mistakes'. Invading Iraq, Draconian Polcing and survielance legislation and cravenlly embracing neo-liberal economics were deliberate policy decisions made - not as 'sops to middle england' - but because Blair and co idelogically supported those policies and attacked, undermined and marginalised everyone who opposed them.

Why the fuck would we want the tories delivering more of the same - quite probably accompanied by viscious public spending cuts?

The alternative? Rebuild popular democracy from the bottom up as a matter of urgency. A tough and daunting task but one that but infintiely better than contuinuning to prop up the cynical, oppressive charade of the present system.

 

[brasicritique]

New Labour didn't 'mistakes'. Invading Iraq, Draconian Polcing and survielance legislation and cravenlly embracing neo-liberal economics were deliberate policy decisions made - not as 'sops to middle england' - but because Blair and co idelogically supported those policies and attacked, undermined and marginalised everyone who opposed them. .

One was a foreign policy descison , which just happened to tie in with technological developments and a domestic policing agenda which had initially idenitified welfare reform as a means of tackling 'benefit fraud'. The obbsession with crime , but no the cause of crime were also important to newshamebore. The domestic policing agenda was shaped thus. The war on terror came later. Newshamebore was a total upper middleclass project, which continues to benefit the upper middleclass. Seen in this light ,the decisions you refer to above as 'sops' were merely an extension of newshamebores ideological perspective , a perspective which has seen the haves benefit enorously at the cost of the 'have nots' and 'did have somthing modests'

Why the fuck would we want the tories delivering more of the same - quite probably accompanied by viscious public spending cuts?.

Depends what you mean by 'we'. Middle or upper middle britain has benefited the most from the newshamebore years and will continue to do so under the tories. And in context to boris article is fairly easy to see why.

The alternative? Rebuild popular democracy from the bottom up as a matter of urgency. A tough and daunting task but one that but infintiely better than contuinuning to prop up the cynical, oppressive charade of the present system.

Not going to happen IMO for the reason stated earlier. Events like the disaster in Dafur , or Palestine or Third runways are always eaiser for the 'haves' to identify with , as such issues are 'over there' or about 'the planet' . In short they are IMO choosen amongst other things by the 'Haves' as they are issues which allow the 'Haves' to maintain distance from the poor and vulnerable in this country who act as a reminder of what 'the haves' have and the expense at which they got it.

 

[shagnasty]

If anyone was told when i was a kid that the labour party would be this right wing people would laugh.but i can't make many predictions but it will not be a peaceful time there will be plenty of blaming and counter blaming .I am still hopeful for the future .well i can dream can't i

 

[Zachor]

I think there is a fair chance that Labour will be out of office for a generation after the next election.

They have proved their incompetance and the Tories will bash NL with the record of this incompetance whenever they can when they come to power thereby scaring the electorate away from them. Brown isn't a PM he's more the Labour parties undertaker.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Next election will be a hung parliament. Loads of people have turned away from Labour, but nobody in their right mind wants a Tory government.

 

[Zachor]

Next election will be a hung parliament. Loads of people have turned away from Labour, but nobody in their right mind wants a Tory government.

I think we will have a Tory govt. Enough time has passed to show people that the Tories have to a large extent changed to reflect the changes in society. Also Boris Johnson hasn;t made any huge fuck ups to embarass the party and the headcases have been kept under lock and key.

What I belive will happen is Labour are now so hated outside of their normal bovine 'I always vote labour' voters that they will be hit severely at the GE. The Lib dems will do a bit better from those voters who don't want the Tories. Many former labour voters will sadly also vote BNP which will pull voters away from Labour benefiting the tories.

Can't see a hung parliament myself.

 

[elbows]

I think we will have a Tory govt. Enough time has passed to show people that the Tories have to a large extent changed to reflect the changes in society.

What changes would that be? That the shadow cabinet is full of public school types, reflecting the grinding to a halt of social mobility in this country?

 

[Zachor]

What changes would that be? That the shadow cabinet is full of public school types, reflecting the grinding to a halt of social mobility in this country?

Social mobility ground to a halt under NL not under the Tories. More people got of their arses and made something of themselves under the Tories than under NL. All NL has done is enrich those who are already rich.

 

[dennisr]

Social mobility ground to a halt under NL not under the Tories. More people got of their arses and made something of themselves under the Tories than under NL. All NL has done is enrich those who are already rich.

Is this part of your political and moral 'transformation' - a rewrite of history?

or just desperate attention seeking aware that most folk think you are an arse?

new labour continued tory policy - what 'people' got up to, under the limits of either party is irrelevant (plus you are simply making it up... plenty of people are still doing their best to 'get off their arses' - simply held back by idiots like you)

 

[Zachor]

Is this part of your political and moral 'transformation' - a rewrite of history?

IIRC there have been some studies to show that social mobility has dropped under NL. Not only have they continued with some of the worst aspects fo tory policies but have in some cases gone beyond what the tories would have done.

or just desperate attention seeking aware that most folk think you are an arse?

Being called an arse by ideological lefties is to me a badge of honour.

new labour continued tory policy - what 'people' got up to, under the limits of either party is irrelevant (plus you are simply making it up... plenty of people are still doing their best to 'get off their arses' - simply held back by idiots like you)

Some people do get off their arses but there seemed to be more people from humble backgrounds making it in the 80's than there are now.

 

[dennisr]

Being called an arse by ideological lefties is to me a badge of honour.

So its just attention seeking then mate

 

[Mitre10]

Having looked through a few comments sections on news websites and various other forums then its pretty clear that Labour are finished in the wake of this Budget (if public sentiment remains the same by this time next year).

Good riddance too.

 

[dennisr]

'New Zachor' its like 'New Labour' innit?