Labour – a party fit for imperialism - Book launch 12-11-14

[articul8]

the PLP is not the party. Even within the PLP there are people like Corbyn, who you'd be hard pushed to call imperialist, racist or anti working-class.

 

[nino_savatte]

the PLP is not the party. Even within the PLP there are people like Corbyn, who you'd be hard pushed to call imperialist, racist or anti working-class.

It is the party or, at least, part of the party. The last time I checked, the PLP wasn't isolated from the party. People like Corbyn et al are marginalised within the PLP. How on earth can any self-respecting, self-styled left-wingers stay in a party that refuses to offer the electorate socialist policies? Stockholm syndrome? No, that's too easy. However, you offered me one example and as far as I'm aware, there are few genuine left-wingers left in the party (Corbyn is but one). There are even fewer Labour MPs that have worked with their hands sitting in the Commons and most of them come via the all too familiar route of university, researcher, MP. Their feet never touched the ground - so to speak.

 

[articul8]

There are still some around - I can think of an ex-brickie, an ex gas-fitter, an ex-factory engineer, ex-coal miners - but not enough, granted. That's not to say that all researchers can't be politically pro-w/c - eg. McDonnell was a union researcher.

 

[nino_savatte]

There are still some around - I can think of an ex-brickie, an ex gas-fitter, an ex-factory engineer, ex-coal miners - but not enough, granted. That's not to say that all researchers can't be politically pro-w/c - eg. McDonnell was a union researcher.

Like I said, they don't exist in any great number. Labour is dominated by Blairites and middle class careerists.

 

[butchersapron]

There are still some around - I can think of an ex-brickie, an ex gas-fitter, an ex-factory engineer, ex-coal miners - but not enough, granted. That's not to say that all researchers can't be politically pro-w/c - eg. McDonnell was a union researcher.

Lots of ex things there eh?

 

[articul8]

There is a large element. But that isn't exclusively the case. And in any event, the book is presumably making a case about Labour throughout its history not since Blair.

 

[nino_savatte]

There is a large element. But that isn't exclusively the case. And in any event, the book is presumably making a case about Labour throughout its history not since Blair.

A large element of what? Middle class careerists? Blairites?

 

[articul8]

Lots of ex things there eh?

You think MPs should do manual second jobs? Interesting... I wouldn't go that far but do think MPs should take the wage of the average skilled worker - and second jobs should be strictly limited to where they are in the public interest.

 

[articul8]

A large element of what? Middle class careerists? Blairites?

both

 

[butchersapron]

You think MPs should do manual second jobs? Interesting... I wouldn't go that far but do think MPs should take the wage of the average skilled worker - and second jobs should be strictly limited to where they are in the public interest.

Excellent, a class analysis that says Lord sugar is working class. Thanks for that.

Actually, it's a class analysis designed to say that you, despite your liberal left wing bubble privilege, are working class.

 

[nino_savatte]

both

Does the party have any principles left or did it jettison them when it voted to get rid of Clause 4?

 

[articul8]

Excellent, a class analysis that's says Lord sugar is working class. Thanks for that.

No, the people are described are still actively promoting union and w/c interests. Notice I didn't add "postman" to that list.

 

[articul8]

Does the party have any principles left or did it jettison them when it voted to get rid of Clause 4?

There is a split between out-and-out neoliberals and cautious mainstream social democrats - with a small and admittedly for the time being mostly marginal core of socialists.

 

[butchersapron]

No, the people are described are still actively promoting union and w/c interests. Notice I didn't add "postman" to that list.

Even better, class is defined whatever politics you supply. Brilliant.

Actually, it's a class analysis designed to say that you, despite your liberal left wing bubble privilege, are working class

 

[articul8]

Whatever - my class is neither here nor there in this context. Are you saying working class people elected to parliament lose all their class characteristics overnight. And this is "class analysis"?

 

[butchersapron]

MPs being working class - back to this nonsense. Ok, all Mps or just ones whose politics you agree with? How much of your politics do they have to agree with?

 

[articul8]

Of course MPs aren't working class by virtue of being MPs. But being elected to parliament doesn't automatically disqualify you from every working class characteristic you ever possessed. It's about how you relate to your past and present.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course MPs aren't working class by virtue of being MPs. But being elected to parliament doesn't automatically disqualify you from every working class characteristic you ever possessed. It's about how you relate to your past and present.

if your class is defined by your relationship to the means of production, as one k. marx declared, then what class are mps?

 

[Pickman's model]

MPs being working class - back to this nonsense. Ok, all Mps or just ones whose politics you agree with? How much of your politics do they have to agree with?

i think articul8 would have to articulate some coherent politics for that to occur and there is no sign of that happening in the near future.

 

[articul8]

if your class is defined by your relationship to the means of production, as one k. marx declared, then what class are mps?

So someone who was born to a working class family, was educated like other working class kids, did a working class job and one day won the lottery somehow loses every class trait they possessed? Yeh, right....

 

[articul8]

i think articul8 would have to articulate some coherent politics for that to occur and there is no sign of that happening in the near future.

have you lost your tumescence over that dead copper yet?

 

[Pickman's model]

So someone who was born to a working class family, was educated like other working class kids, did a working class job and one day won the lottery somehow loses every class trait they possessed? Yeh, right....

do you think being elected to parliament is like winning the lottery?

 

[Pickman's model]

have you lost your tumescence over that dead copper yet?

between you, me and the cat news of dead cops doesn't give me an erection.

 

[articul8]

between you, me and the cat news of dead cops doesn't give me an erection.

I'm not sure I believe you

 

[articul8]

do you think being elected to parliament is like winning the lottery?

next best thing

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not sure I believe you

i'm not sure i care

 

[articul8]

i'm not sure i care

I'm not sure I care that you're not sure you care

 

[Pickman's model]

next best thing

it's back to the drawing board for your politics.

 

[articul8]

all left/pro-working class politics is at the drawing board stage again

 

[Pickman's model]

all left/pro-working class politics is at the drawing board stage again

ok, i was wrong: your politics are at best at the proto-political stage.