Kosovo - What's the state of play today?

[gorski]

But at the moment it still is a part of Serbia, as it has been for a long time - and so who decides to exclude the rest of Serbia? Similar with the Croat Serbs, when they wanted to have their referendum, after Croatia had its referendum. How far would you go? Now Republika Srpska can do the same, and the Croat equivalent in Bosnia then???!!!???

Moreover, many Albanians in Kosovo came running away from Enver Hoxha and co., never got their passports/citizenship, paid taxes etc. etc.

Many questions arise... It's not black and white. That's for Bush, I thought...

Domino theory anyone? Not another mess!!

 

[zoltan]

Surely a vote by the people who actually live in the territory should have precedent over international law?

Therefore just have a vote on independence like they did in Montenegro (also a Serbian Principality in the Middle Ages.)

Within the EU, such differences of sovereignty have been trumped by issues which are by nature bigger than such local issues.


It would seem to make sense to usher in the Balkans into the EU first before we deal with such issues as Turkey's membership, but that maybe going a bit off topic!

More pressing will be how Albania reacts, especially considering that it borders Kosovo, which is 90% Albanians.

What is to prevent Albania simply turning around and saying that Kosovo is just a part of Albania?

Meanwhile Albania is Muslim, thus adding another dimension to the EU expansion issue.

I understand where you are coming form - in an ideal world, this would be fantastic - local poll to decide soverignty and the majority are happy

sadly Kosovo , just due to its geographical location, is going to find it hard to go it alone - with no land access out of the balkans without the agreement of its neighbours, is going tio make things tricky and unless Kosovo has some kind of protection on the ground by teh EU or NATO forces , then it will always be vunerable to aggrssion or indeed isolation - recall the Berlin airlift of the post war years ? it may not be such an absurd comparison as you may think

Sensibly, long term , Kosovo has to get on or come to agreement with its neioghbours unless it intends to be an EU sponsored and protected statelet, otherwise it will be under siege in one way or another - another Israel anyone ?

and that in itself may be a pretty decent option for the Ksovars, judging by the Euros that are streaming into the province - I have never seen so many shops supplying building materials in one place in my life - Good for the local economy to have the EU/UN/NATO on the ground

But logically, you can see Russias point vis a vis its view on security - and we all know that Russia values its borders and its security very highly - the idea of a myriad of self declared landlocked statelets popping up and all demanding assistance, protection and aid could prove a big burden for the EU - morally and practically - and cause ruptions within "Russia" that could easily lead to mass bloodletting

I can see why the humnitarian precedent was invoked for Kosovo - but independance means taking responsibility for your actions and its affect on your neighbours - Kosovo surely cannot expect to wave 2 fingers at the Serbs whilst hiding behind the muscle of the international organisations for ever ?

 

[Poi E]

Meanwhile Albania is Muslim, thus adding another dimension to the EU expansion issue.

Albania is 70/20/10 Muslim/Albanian orthodox/Catholic. It's the Balkan brand of Islam, too. Booze, pork and the token nod to the mosque.

Albania won't get involved in Kosovo. I went down through Albania with a Kosovar a few years back and he didn't exactly feel 100% at home in Albania and locals made it know in some cases. People have very simply notions of affinity in the Balkans based purely on religion of "nationhood". When do you ever hear of analysis of the rural versus urban nature of the conflicts of the Balkans, a feature that was quite stark across the region?

Russia and Serbia's "brotherly love" has seen many ups and downs over the years. British foreign policy in the 1990s promoted this notion as a means to help its devious and underhand approach to events in the Balkans. Handed it to the Russians on a plate. Russia is playing geopolitics on many fronts, so why not in the Balkans?

Fix the poverty and unemployment in the Balkans and the nationalism goes away. But that would require more than this superficial focus on autonomy, secession and other concepts beloved of politicians and diplomats inside and outside the Balkans. Why is there no active pursuit of a trade confederacy across former Yugoslavia? Informal ties are springing up across the region but no great effort is being put into reinforcing these on a formal basis.

 

[Gmart]

The EU has been hiding behind the muscle of the US for years, but I take your points.

Democracy has to be theprinciple of the EU tho, and if they want independence they should have a go, despite what the Russians say over a thousand miles away...


I'll second the domino theory, but will it really make a difference within an expanded EU? Probably not...

 

[Gmart]

I appreciate that Albania will not necessarily accept Kosovo as an Albanian region, in the same way as Flanders will not want to be part of Holland. These regions are considered adequately different to be independent.

Still within the EU, will this make any difference?

The question as to what should be decided at a local level and what should be decided at a European level still applies and is the key question for the modern development of a globalised world.

 

[Poi E]

I appreciate that Albania will not necessarily accept Kosovo as an Albanian region, in the same way as Flanders will not want to be part of Holland. These regions are considered adequately different to be independent.

Still within the EU, will this make any difference?

The question as to what should be decided at a local level and what should be decided at a European level still applies and is the key question for the modern development of a globalised world.

True-I think that Serbia should be given accelerated EU membership. Isolate nationalist politicians in Kosovo and the RS, and show Serbia that it is not becoming a poorer brother to Croatia. The balance between Croatia and Serbia will always be determinative in the region, I think.

 

[gorski]

Why is there no active pursuit of a trade confederacy across former Yugoslavia? Informal ties are springing up across the region but no great effort is being put into reinforcing these on a formal basis.

There is, and it's pushed by the EU, of course, even the US. Those policies and regional integration at the economic level got bad reactions in Cro, even though their business are happily buying businesses in Serbia and trading with them for a long time now, even during the war...

However, never heard of "Greater Albania"?

It's not just Global, then EU and local - but also regional level. And all of those need to be sorted really rationally and well, possibly according to the best model we have - German Länder model...

 

[zoltan]

True-I think that Serbia should be given accelerated EU membership. Isolate nationalist politicians in Kosovo and the RS, and show Serbia that it is not becoming a poorer brother to Croatia. The balance between Croatia and Serbia will always be determinative in the region, I think.

Serboa never of got over the fact that Tito wasnt one of them...

But sensibly, Serbia is a ( relative ) economic powerhouse in the Balkans - all roads lead to Belgrade

To aknowledge the chanegs made in recvent years and give them a bit of a EU cuddle to restore their confidence would probabaly do the world of good for the region

 

[Poi E]

However, never heard of "Greater Albania"?
.

Yes. I hear Western, Kosovar and Serbian politicians speak of it. Never heard an Albanian politician talk about it.

 

[gorski]

Maybe, although that might not preclude it from ever happening. Somebody becomes power hungry and makes them forget just how shitty they live and start imagining glory...

The problem is that no neighbouring state [and wider, including Turkey!] can sit on the sidelines with such developments, if weak Macedonia starts getting butchered up...

It's a potential mess of enormous proportions...

 

[Gmart]

Macedonia is landlocked as well, and so will experience the same problems as Kosovo with this.

 

[zoltan]

Macedonia is landlocked as well, and so will experience the same problems as Kosovo with this.

FYRM is always getting shit from Greece about its "status" anyway

 

[gorski]

Tells a lot about Mighty Greece and its self-confidence - allegedly Macedonia's name would have meant "territorial pretensions"... Hence FYROM, thanx to them... To begin with.

When it happened [ex-YU breakup] the Greeks crippled the Macedonians by freezing their already paid oil in Thessaloniki and so forth. Poor Macedonia on its knees anyway really needed a friendly and neighbourly gesture like that in their time of need...

That's how one fosters nationalism and resentment and so forth...

 

[Gmart]

So both Macedonia and Kosovo should be allowed to be independent within the EU?

 

[Poi E]

So both Macedonia and Kosovo should be allowed to be independent within the EU?

Macedonia is already a sovereign state.

 

[gorski]

Nope GM, another quick and big jump...

 

[zoltan]

So both Macedonia and Kosovo should be allowed to be independent within the EU?

Monetengro ?

 

[Gmart]

Why not, if the will of the people is thus.

 

[gorski]

I already argued against this, as Montenegro's context and road to independence is essentially different...

 

[Gmart]

Despite history, any people from any geographic location should be able to vote for independence if it is their will to do so.

Equality innit?

 

[Poi E]

Despite history, any people from any geographic location should be able to vote for independence if it is their will to do so.

Equality innit?

Like Russian dolls. Nation A with people X, Y&Z declares independence from Nation B. Then peoples X and Y declare independence from people Z. Then people X declare....

The Balkan conundrum: why should I be a minority in your state when you can be a minority in mine?

 

[gorski]

Despite history, any people from any geographic location should be able to vote for independence if it is their will to do so.

Equality innit?

No.

And I must note you haven't responded to my series of questions: Croats in ex-YU, then Serbs in Croatia, then Serbs and/or Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina, then...

Who determines who has the right and who hasn't and how?

Who excludes whom from voting on their own territory etc.?

 

[Gmart]

I understand your point of course. Certainly if you were a Croat in Serbia (for example) then you have a choice between returning to the homeland and staying in your adopted land and being absorbed into the culture there.

Democracy has to be the basic authority tho surely?

 

[zoltan]

Despite history, any people from any geographic location should be able to vote for independence if it is their will to do so.

Equality innit?

The original Vance /Owen plan for Bosnia envisaged soemthing like 10 provinces , each of the 3 group getting a majority in 3 provinces each

even with this level of splitting, there were still unresolved pockets all over the palce that were demanding/ allying themselves to the grouops that didnt have the majority ion that area.

You could take this autonomy down to individual villages and even at that level, you would still be dealing with 2 ethinic groupings in many cases - and you can still see this today in villages, even with the Serb Diasapora outflow in recent years

Whilst Im dont have any theoretical ojjections to people deciding what they want to do with their manor, the realities are a bit complex in teh balkans

 

[Gmart]

Of course, it will take time, no matter what occurs.

 

[Poi E]

I understand your point of course. Certainly if you were a Croat in Serbia (for example) then you have a choice between returning to the homeland and staying in your adopted land and being absorbed into the culture there.

Democracy has to be the basic authority tho surely?

Homelands? Kninska Krajina was the Croatian Serbs homeland for hundreds of years. Serbia is not their "homeland" and if you've ever met the poor bastards hanging our in shitty suburbs in Belgrade you can see that.

 

[gorski]

I understand your point of course. Certainly if you were a Croat in Serbia (for example) then you have a choice between returning to the homeland and staying in your adopted land and being absorbed into the culture there.

Democracy has to be the basic authority tho surely?

Nope, sorry, you don't get it.

Republika Srpska is in Bosnia and if Kosovo is allowed to do this then what with them? Or Serbs in Croatia?

Not simple and straight forward!

 

[gorski]

Homelands? Kninska Krajina was the Croatian Serbs homeland for hundreds of years. Serbia is not their "homeland" and if you've ever met the poor bastards hanging our in shitty suburbs in Belgrade you can see that.

Indeed, many problems!

 

[Poi E]

Not simple and straight forward!

And Tito, the son of a Slovene and a Croat, saw this.

 

[gorski]

But killed democracy and created many more of such problems, sorting none in the meantime...