Ken Loach ..part 2

[belboid]

yeah, cos I'm the one wanting to keep the blacks out, innit

you dont like it when your own arguments are tiurned against you do you scumbag?

And you STILL havent managed to come up with any answer - not even a pisspoor one - as to how come your 'solution' would actually increase the numbers working illegally.

 

[tbaldwin]

yeah, cos I'm the one wanting to keep the blacks out, innit

you dont like it when your own arguments are tiurned against you do you scumbag?

And you STILL havent managed to come up with any answer - not even a pisspoor one - as to how come your 'solution' would actually increase the numbers working illegally.

1 Who said anything about keeping the Blacks out?
Is that really what you think after all the arguements, that im somebody who just wants to keep the Blacks out??????

2 What arguements?

3 er?? What are you talking about,now?

 

[belboid]

you dont see it explicitly - you dont like to enunciate the actual consequences of your 'solution' (eg bigger, better armed border patrols, shootings and drownings of would be migrants)

The fact is, your migration 'solution' would leave the door open to migrants from rich countries - ie nearly all white - but close it to poor countries - ie nearly all black (or 'yellow').

As to the rest - read the thread you dumb fucker.

 

[tbaldwin]

you dont see it explicitly - you dont like to enunciate the actual consequences of your 'solution' (eg bigger, better armed border patrols, shootings and drownings of would be migrants)

The fact is, your migration 'solution' would leave the door open to migrants from rich countries - ie nearly all white - but close it to poor countries - ie nearly all black (or 'yellow').

As to the rest - read the thread you dumb fucker.

My migration solution for the UK. Would first of all close the door to primarily white migrants to be honest.

You seem to have the idea that i am some closet racist...I have to say you have it wrong.

The consequences of free market policies on migration are genocidal as i think you well know.....

 

[belboid]

I dont think you are any kind of closet (or open) racist. I just think that you dont think your 'solution' through.

Now you seem to have changed it again tho, to being a 'little englander' approach - no immigration at all??

 

[tbaldwin]

I dont think you are any kind of closet (or open) racist. I just think that you dont think your 'solution' through.

Now you seem to have changed it again tho, to being a 'little englander' approach - no immigration at all??

1 belboid. Well at least you realise, im not a racist, which is good.....
And the solution does need to be thought through.
Both of us would agree the far right and the Tories hope to use immigration.
But should the response from people on the Left be a knee jerk reaction of supporting the "free movement of people" I would say absolutely not. I think you have to look at the international consequences of migration. And you have to look at it from a Class perspective.
As somebody who has had to spend a lot of the last 5 years in and out of hospital. It saddens me to see just how many foreign health care professionals the UK has poached from poorer countries.
My cancer is being kept under control at the mo. But if i lived in some of the countries those people come from i would be dead a long time ago.

I think its fucking wrong that if i was a Black South African, i would be dead.
I think that immigration is a huge issue both in this country and internationally...

I am as many people have said obsessed by the issue...And have thought it through loads and loads....And talked it through with loads and loads of people from all over the world.....
More and more people on the Left are starting to reconsider their views on migration.
Which to me can only be a good thing.

 

[belboid]

the reason the South African health system is fucked up is not to do with migration tho, is it? You are, as you often do, conflating two issues and saying it is all about just one of them.

 

[tbaldwin]

the reason the South African health system is fucked up is not to do with migration tho, is it? You are, as you often do, conflating two issues and saying it is all about just one of them.

No. belboid of course its not just about migration. But that is a BIG part of it.
You may remember a few years ago both Nelson Mandela and the World Health Organisation spoke out about the UK poaching health workers from South Africa and other Asian and African countries.

But your right these countries need equipment as well as people.

But if we continue to take the people they most need they are not going to develop economically to be able to afford the equipment.

 

[belboid]

migration out of SA has precious little to do with why their economy is fucked (tho there is a degree of circularity about it - the economy is fucked so people migrate. However the economy would have remained fucked if those people had stayed only to starve)

 

[tbaldwin]

migration out of SA has precious little to do with why their economy is fucked (tho there is a degree of circularity about it - the economy is fucked so people migrate. However the economy would have remained fucked if those people had stayed only to starve)

Well its a lot more fucked for some than others.
And migration means that some can escape but others cant.
And who finds it easiest to escape?
And who is most likely to get left behind?

 

[belboid]

arse over tit.

people migrate because the economy is fucked, the economy ids fucked because of imf restructuring programmes. Stopping migration wont change that one bit.

Challenge the root, not the symptom

 

[belboid]

AND we have already seen how immigration controls dont stop people migrating, they just make them into illegal workers once they are over here, making them almost unorganisable and leading tov even worse conditions for them and their families - here and in their home country

 

[durruti02]

AND we have already seen how immigration controls dont stop people migrating, they just make them into illegal workers once they are over here, making them almost unorganisable and leading tov even worse conditions for them and their families - here and in their home country

mate i agree with what you have posted above but the rest of your posts sum up the worst of the leftist repsonse on this issue ..

you immediately bandy about 'racist'!! this is a patheticly dogmatic response and is blinding you and your leftwing mates into ignoring what is becoming THE political issue in the w/c class .. and naturally it is entirely WITHOUT justification .. indeed i could JUST AS EASILY argue that the way you support this country importing black migrant labour in this country is FAR MORE racist than TB who is merely mirroring the south african trade unions and the WHO on this issue. so belboid you are a racist!!! .. ok i am not serious but it is a ignorent term to bandy about when clearly you are not as versed in the south african situation as you think you are ( p.s. you were telling me you were AGAINST poaching in a post above?? )

and yet again you bandy about shooting/drowning migrants .. and yet again this is weak emotionalism .. there are plenty of countries with strong borders where this does NOT happen

and you never replied to my accusation that it is just as left wing to demand the state 'defend' workers here is it is to demand teh other thousend things the left demand of govts now! now! now!

your responses are typical of the lefts response over the whole country and are sadly part of the problem and part of the reason the w/c is shifting right so rapidly

 

[durruti02]

arse over tit.

people migrate because the economy is fucked, the economy ids fucked because of imf restructuring programmes. Stopping migration wont change that one bit.

Challenge the root, not the symptom

but you are against poaching .. right?

 

[belboid]

you immediately bandy about 'racist'!! this is a patheticly dogmatic response

i dont 'immediately bandy about 'racist'' - i make a point with the use of the term, and his method of argument. allowing only migration from countries where there could be no risk of it being 'poaching' inevitably means - white people okay, black people, not really.

if you cant be arsed to distance yourself from baldwin, you can hardly blame people for lumping you in with him. they clearly pay as little attention to what is explicitly written as you just have.

 

[durruti02]

there are umpteen factors why this forum has turned to shite - these mindlessly repetitive threads are one of them tho, and you cant deny it. you dont even try to.

no evidence provided for your first point (ie driving DOWN wages) either.

all political debate is repetitive .. these threads have moved on in many ways .. there are plenty of other threads on CNWP or Respect which go round and around in circles .. sadly to an extent that is the nature of political debate .. what is interesting is how those .. to me .. meaningless debates are NOT criticised in the same way and also nor do I lauch repeated flaming attacks on them

on your second point that direct evidence i have not found yet ( though i have not looked for months) HOWEVER what we do have is tons of evidence that wages increases have been slowed/stalled etc .. indeed another of my 'drivel' threads has this in the OP. did you not read it?

BUT BUT BUT my main point is how millions of wages across the public sector in outsourced companies and many e.g. building and cleaning firms, HAVE CLEARLY GONE DOWN .. not just in terms of inflation ( as mine has) or cost of living ( as mine has dramatically) but in real terms as has those in various cowboy contractors who work overall forr the same org as me.

and that could ONLY have happenned either by forcing millions of reluctant brits into work at minimum wage OR by importing migrants .. the neo liberals have taken the later route .. it is easier and has more rewards

 

[durruti02]

i dont 'immediately bandy about 'racist'' - i make a point with the use of the term, and his method of argument. allowing only migration from countries where there could be no risk of it being 'poaching' inevitably means - white people okay, black people, not really.

if you cant be arsed to distance yourself from baldwin, you can hardly blame people for lumping you in with him. they clearly pay as little attention to what is explicitly written as you just have.

but it is simply wrong though isn't it???? and so makes the whole debate ridiculous .. i will say again then mate that you as a supportter of bringing cheap black labour to this country to do the shite work and the work we do not want to train ourselves to do YOU are a racist exploiter ..

and this arguement get more ridiculous when it is EU migration that makes up the vast majority of what is being discussed .. are you going to accuse him and me of being anti slav??? LOL and oooh hey wasn't hitler anti slav???? hey so why don't you call us nazis????

yes it is ridiculous way to debate isn't it???

stick to the facts mate

and distance myself?? have you now or have you ever been!! jaysus i make it very clear WHERE i disagree BUT i am trying to get you to actually respond to what he says and equally i have pointed out to you why actually his arguements fit in just as well as yours to a left wing tradition .. you have failed to respond to this

 

[liberty123]

all political debate is repetitive .. these threads have moved on in many ways .. there are plenty of other threads on CNWP or Respect which go round and around in circles .. sadly to an extent that is the nature of political debate .. what is interesting is how those .. to me .. meaningless debates are NOT criticised in the same way and also nor do I lauch repeated flaming attacks on them

on your second point that direct evidence i have not found yet ( though i have not looked for months) HOWEVER what we do have is tons of evidence that wages increases have been slowed/stalled etc .. indeed another of my 'drivel' threads has this in the OP. did you not read it?

BUT BUT BUT my main point is how millions of wages across the public sector in outsourced companies and many e.g. building and cleaning firms, HAVE CLEARLY GONE DOWN .. not just in terms of inflation ( as mine has) or cost of living ( as mine has dramatically) but in real terms as has those in various cowboy contractors who work overall forr the same org as me.

and that could ONLY have happenned either by forcing millions of reluctant brits into work at minimum wage OR by importing migrants .. the neo liberals have taken the later route .. it is easier and has more rewards

This is true in low skilled work. But in terms of say plumbers- let's face it british plumbers were completely taking the piss. If they've now got competition from polish plumbers charging half as much then let's face it -they've only themselves to blame. Has anyone ever known a British plumber declare that a job will cost less than £200???

That said i accept there's always shite and hyprocrisy by media figures. Maybe if some of these liberal BBC broadcasters with their million pound a year contracts were subject to competition from eastern Europeans then they wouldn't be quite so liberal on migrant workers.

 

[tbaldwin]

This is true in low skilled work. But in terms of say plumbers- let's face it british plumbers were completely taking the piss. If they've now got competition from polish plumbers charging half as much then let's face it -they've only themselves to blame. Has anyone ever known a British plumber declare that a job will cost less than £200???

That said i accept there's always shite and hyprocrisy by media figures. Maybe if some of these liberal BBC broadcasters with their million pound a year contracts were subject to competition from eastern Europeans then they wouldn't be quite so liberal on migrant workers.

There is a huge amount of hypocrisy isnt there. Plenty of other people far less knowledgeable and experienced than plumbers earn far more.
But cos they is common people who work with their hands.....They are seen as rip off merchants..
What about solicitors,journalists and doctors for fuck sake......

 

[Streathamite]

Livingstone?

Of course he has many views in common......Some of them he may choose to keep to himself.....

really? well let's look at that. many? oooh...five examples, not really 'many'

Both see themselves as the saviours of the working class etc.

once; 10 years back, ken acknowledges he's far too mainstream these days

Both think anybody who argues against mass migration must be at least a bit dodgy.

swappies yes, a classic case of m/c liberal handwringing. Ken, however - untrue

Both think HE students should get more money!!!!!

so do I and I thought you would too

Both think that bringing in tougher punishments for anti social criminals is reactionary.......

neither have said that, or anything as crass or clumsy as that. ken has also shown total scorn to every far left sectlet. it's the one bit of consistency he's shown down the years.
so there's bugger all common ground between ken and the SWP, isn't there?

 

[tbaldwin]

really? well let's look at that. many? oooh...five examples, not really 'many'


once; 10 years back, ken acknowledges he's far too mainstream these days


swappies yes, a classic case of m/c liberal handwringing. Ken, however - untrue

so do I and I thought you would too


neither have said that, or anything as crass or clumsy as that. ken has also shown total scorn to every far left sectlet. it's the one bit of consistency he's shown down the years.
so there's bugger all common ground between ken and the SWP, isn't there?

I just chose the first 5 that popped into the space between my ears...
I could have chosen another 50 if you wanted....

I dont think Livingstone is anything but a confused opportunist...
And anybody who thinks Lee Jasper is OK, who has spent any time in his company i think must be at least a bit mentally unbalanced....or an utter shithead.....

His relationship with the SWP has yo yoed over the years...And you really are quite wrong about him and left sectlets Jezza....Think Anne Kane ......think Socialist Action.........

 

[Streathamite]

I just chose the first 5 that popped into the space between my ears...
I could have chosen another 50 if you wanted....

I dont think Livingstone is anything but a confused opportunist...
And anybody who thinks Lee Jasper is OK, who has spent any time in his company i think must be at least a bit mentally unbalanced....or an utter shithead.....

His relationship with the SWP has yo yoed over the years...And you really are quite wrong about him and left sectlets Jezza....Think Anne Kane ......think Socialist Action.........

erm...where do i deny that KL hqas become an unprincipled establishment scumbag?
just that ideologically KL and the SWP are poles apart. any common ground is purely there as a result of cynical, opportunitistic mutual exploitation.

 

[liberty123]

There is a huge amount of hypocrisy isnt there. Plenty of other people far less knowledgeable and experienced than plumbers earn far more.
But cos they is common people who work with their hands.....They are seen as rip off merchants..
What about solicitors,journalists and doctors for fuck sake......

Well yes quite true there is that in it. But the thing is that working class people are more likely to have to meet the cost of plumbers from their own pockets. If as you say plumbers are themselves common people then why do they not have more sympathy with the lack of money among the common people who are their clients and stop charging us ridiculous amounts for any sort of call out?

 

[tbaldwin]

Well yes quite true there is that in it. But the thing is that working class people are more likely to have to meet the cost of plumbers from their own pockets. If as you say plumbers are themselves common people then why do they not have more sympathy with the lack of money among the common people who are their clients and stop charging us ridiculous amounts for any sort of call out?

Cos there number one priority is themselves and their families. Can you really blame them for that?
Its how capitalism works....

 

[tbaldwin]

erm...where do i deny that KL hqas become an unprincipled establishment scumbag?
just that ideologically KL and the SWP are poles apart. any common ground is purely there as a result of cynical, opportunitistic mutual exploitation.

Idealogically they both believe in Socialism from Above.....
Now they may differ in aspects of it. but it is fundamental to both of them.

And along with a firm belief in Socialism from above, ( both would firmly deny it) is a nod to populism and marketing.
The SWP were for years the leading party on the left due largely to their marketing.

 

[belboid]

funny how you dont believe in such measures for foreigners baldy.

'the popular will - unless you want to move to the Uk, in which case, fuck off'

 

[belboid]

n just to come back on a couple of durutti's earlier points:

"balders could just run round [the racism 'accusation'] against you"
actually - that is just what i was doing, baldy frequently uses precisely that argument, yet throws a fit when it is turned (more appropriately) on him

"there are countries with a harsh immigration policy that dont enforce it with guns etc"
really? like where - people are shot trying to enter the EU (mainly from africa), there are great fuck off fences with armed guards who shoot. it is undeniable, as are the vast numbers dying making treacherous sea crossings, or entrusting their lives to scumbag people smugglers

"are you against poaching?"

as I have said umpteen times, yes. But the only way to stop is is by workers action here[/i[] and in the poached from countries - ensuring their health services etc pay decent wages to stop their families from starving. the best thing we can do to stop poaching is to stop the use of agencies to supply NHS staff - campaigning for a fully, properly, funded health service.

baldy can't actually offer ANY practical solutions for workers who may be worse of due to the abuse of imported labour, he merely wants to kick the importee's. he doesnt even offer any guidance on how we might pressure the state into imposing 'fluffy keep the blacks out in a non-racist way' immigration controls.

 

[tbaldwin]

baldy can't actually offer ANY practical solutions for workers who may be worse of due to the abuse of imported labour, he merely wants to kick the importee's. he doesnt even offer any guidance on how we might pressure the state into imposing 'fluffy keep the blacks out in a non-racist way' immigration controls.

The practical solutions are strict immigration controls. And International labour rules.
If your an Internationalist ( as you like to think) then you have to stand against exploitation internationally.
The problem with your little englander approach to the subject is that you largely ignore the dire consequences for people in poorer countries of us taking their young and skilled workers.

And talking of being practical. How do you think the NI and benefits system, the health and education system would have to change with "Open Borders"

Lets face it the idea of doing away with immigration controls is pie in the sky bullshit.

 

[belboid]

and so balders simply repeats his same old turgid response as if it were something new and ignoring all the points put in criticism

 

[tbaldwin]

and so balders simply repeats his same old turgid response as if it were something new and ignoring all the points put in criticism

Yes belboid. I keep stating what i believe. But No that doesnt mean i am ignoring all criticisms.
The main one, seems to be that supporting immigration controls leads to nasty things for migrants. I think i have dealt with over and over again.
I accept that it is true.BUT that doing away with immigration controls would have far far far far far( did i remember to say far) worse effects.