Ken Loach ..part 2

[belboid]

belboid .. sorry but what you have written is simply not true .. i can not believe you believe that

on urban and in the SW for example people have claimed over and over immigration is/was NOT an important subject .. first that it wasn't happenning ( yes people said it was totally exaggerated ) .. then people said it had NO affect on wages and many said the w/c benefitted from it!! .. then we were told it was only an ideogical issue etc etc .. all totally dogmatic myopia all totally ignoring reality

and second WHAT right wing shite?? what like what Loach says??? cos that is ALL i have ever seen .. you think these discussions have been RIGHT WING .. jesus

and shut up about it?? no not until the head in the sands lefties actually wake up properly and realise how flankered they have been ..

and ironically it has taken old misery guts Loach to actually get some people to think about it .. sad isn't it me and TB go on and on about how bad poaching from the third world is and get called and smeared with being against foriegners and yet Loach says it and i see no similar accusation .. to me that is sad that it takes 'celebrity' to make people think

sorry mate, but this is just bollocks.

everyone, but you and him, knows that baldwin is a right-wing turd who makes one fair point (re poaching) that almost no one disagrees with and then makes a load more shit ones that leave him wanting bigger stronger border controls that would leave would be migrants dead, and lead to a significant increase in illegal workers - the very ones who are actually liable to cause an effect upon wages.

 

[audiotech]

The dads speech in the park,was the best bit of the film. He made the point i made yesterday about how skilled migrant workers were now working as waiters!

Out of work actors, students and those on the new deal too I've heard.

To think, UK industry complains about a skill shortage as well.

 

[audiotech]

But did nothing much to show the impact migration has on uk citizens.

Extra pressures on transport and housing have been mentioned in various reports. What I saw in the way of transport and housing in Loach's film were dodgy vans being overloaded with people, caravan parks in the middle of nowhere, a freezing cold hideaway for a failed asylum-seeker and a multi-occupancy house earning three grand for the owner.

Apparently, some business leaders warned that depending on skilled migrant labour could mean skill levels of UK workers not being raised sufficiently and this 'could risk damaging social cohesion'.

Social cohesion is not being assisted by anti-immigration messages from the far-right and other quarters, but that skilled migrant worker you mentioned earlier working as a waiter must be really pissed off.

 

[durruti02]

sorry mate, but this is just bollocks.

everyone, but you and him, knows that baldwin is a right-wing turd who makes one fair point (re poaching) that almost no one disagrees with and then makes a load more shit ones that leave him wanting bigger stronger border controls that would leave would be migrants dead, and lead to a significant increase in illegal workers - the very ones who are actually liable to cause an effect upon wages.

right mate .. so the left have been saying ALL ALONG about what a problem this all is!! do me a favour!! p.s. you did not reply to my points

and then you say every one agrees about poaching .. which again is TOTALLY not true .. i have been flamed many times saying it is wrong and i never saw you come out against it before .. if you did apologies .. and i never saw you back me up

TB right wing?? you have not a clue .. do you demand teh state repeals trade union laws?? do you demand the state pays proper wages to its employess? do demadn anything off the state .. i think you do .. anarchists do not .. but you are a leftist ..yes???

so TB is demanding the state takes measures to defend the working people of this country ( from whatever background) .. i think there is a major problem with this strategy BUT it is consistent with leftwing ideology ..

knowing TB it never ceases to amaze me HOW totally wrong people read him .. though to be fair he does like a little wind up now and again ......

until i remember they have their special leftist dogmatist myopia glassses on and they are refusing to even think about what he writes

 

[nino_savatte]

right mate .. so the left have been saying ALL ALONG about what a problem this all is!! do me a favour!! p.s. you did not reply to my points

and then you say every one agrees about poaching .. which again is TOTALLY not true .. i have been flamed many times saying it is wrong and i never saw you come out against it before .. if you did apologies .. and i never saw you back me up

TB right wing?? you have not a clue .. do you demand teh state repeals trade union laws?? do you demand the state pays proper wages to its employess? do demadn anything off the state .. i think you do .. anarchists do not .. but you are a leftist ..yes???

so TB is demanding the state takes measures to defend the working people of this country ( from whatever background) .. i think there is a major problem with this strategy BUT it is consistent with leftwing ideology ..

knowing TB it never ceases to amaze me HOW totally wrong people read him .. though to be fair he does like a little wind up now and again ......

until i remember they have their special leftist dogmatist myopia glassses on and they are refusing to even think about what he writes

And you wonder why I don't trust you? You wonder why I say the things i say to you? There is much in this post that tells even the casual observer how you control debate on this forum with your half-baked notions and narrow-minded workerist pov.

What really galls me is your defence...no, apology for baldwin and his reactionary anti-intellectualism

 

[Blagsta]

right mate .. so the left have been saying ALL ALONG about what a problem this all is!! do me a favour!! p.s. you did not reply to my points

and then you say every one agrees about poaching .. which again is TOTALLY not true .. i have been flamed many times saying it is wrong and i never saw you come out against it before .. if you did apologies .. and i never saw you back me up

TB right wing?? you have not a clue .. do you demand teh state repeals trade union laws?? do you demand the state pays proper wages to its employess? do demadn anything off the state .. i think you do .. anarchists do not .. but you are a leftist ..yes???

so TB is demanding the state takes measures to defend the working people of this country ( from whatever background) .. i think there is a major problem with this strategy BUT it is consistent with leftwing ideology ..

knowing TB it never ceases to amaze me HOW totally wrong people read him .. though to be fair he does like a little wind up now and again ......

until i remember they have their special leftist dogmatist myopia glassses on and they are refusing to even think about what he writes

baldwin has expressed his support for New Labour many times on here. That may not make him right wing (although that's debateable), but it certainly doesn't make him left wing either.

 

[belboid]

a - no of course the left havent said its a 'problem' because migration isnt a 'problem', lack of proper housing workers rigts etc is the problem not migration - a point you sometimes recognise, but then seem to forget at other moments (like this). You also seem to foolishly equate 'the left' with the SWP, read around a bit and you'll see a rather different picture (I think dennis has pointed out the SP's different take to you before)

b- I have always said that 'poaching' is wrong - but also that it is made worse by border controls that mean people are more likely to remain here permanently rather than coming for a year or two then returning home

c - yes he is, an old right-wing labourite perhaps, but in the good old days we always recognised that type (healey et al) as an actual right-winger. Just cos he's your mate doesnt change that.

d - if you dont realise how your threads make the likes of twats like YoursTruly (the poster that is) piss themselves with joy, your an eejit

e - why haven't you added any more shouty comments in BIG CAPITALS or maybe even in bold to make everyone realise how weally weally important it all is

f - turning every available thread (eg the one on wages) into being about migration means you overlook the other more important issues and causatory factors. eg, on wages, it is actually illegal workers who are likely to cause any downward pressure on wages because they are illegal (as was shown quite well in the Loach film) - thus making the reactionary line of baldwin clear.

g - havent you noticed, or are you just not bothered, that your little 'campaign' here has failed miserably? Do you not consider that it could be something to do with the way you argue it, rather than being the fault of everyone else?

 

[tbaldwin]

baldwin has expressed his support for New Labour many times on here. That may not make him right wing (although that's debateable), but it certainly doesn't make him left wing either.

My defence of New Labour is not an enthusiastic approval of all or most of their policies.
( On PFI,CRIME, EDUCATION,PRIVATISATION) I think they are shhiiiitttteeee.
not to mention.....totally wrong on migration.....
It is just that i dont think anybody has a decent or credible alternative tot hem from the left.

I believe in a massive redistribution of wealth and power nationally and internationally.
To most people that makes me Left wing not a right wing turd but to a very narrow minded group of people anybody who strays from left wing orthodoxy is right wing.
It makes you understand how Stalinism took hold.

 

[belboid]

<notes have twatters ignores points about how his migration 'solution' actually making the very problems he pretends to care about even worse>

 

[durruti02]

baldwin has expressed his support for New Labour many times on here. That may not make him right wing (although that's debateable), but it certainly doesn't make him left wing either.

yes that is an valid arguement .. bit i think people do not, again, understand why he does this .. simply that they can do things while the minute far left has no influence .. again i disagree with TB on this but again there are many on the left who do accept that pro labour position ..

p.s. if you think he was ablairite or brownite youare very wrong

 

[durruti02]

<notes have twatters ignores points about how his migration 'solution' actually making the very problems he pretends to care about even worse>

how? i have said why but why do you think it makes it worse

 

[durruti02]

a - no of course the left havent said its a 'problem' because migration isnt a 'problem', lack of proper housing workers rigts etc is the problem not migration - a point you sometimes recognise, but then seem to forget at other moments (like this). You also seem to foolishly equate 'the left' with the SWP, read around a bit and you'll see a rather different picture (I think dennis has pointed out the SP's different take to you before)

b- I have always said that 'poaching' is wrong - but also that it is made worse by border controls that mean people are more likely to remain here permanently rather than coming for a year or two then returning home

c - yes he is, an old right-wing labourite perhaps, but in the good old days we always recognised that type (healey et al) as an actual right-winger. Just cos he's your mate doesnt change that.

d - if you dont realise how your threads make the likes of twats like YoursTruly (the poster that is) piss themselves with joy, your an eejit

e - why haven't you added any more shouty comments in BIG CAPITALS or maybe even in bold to make everyone realise how weally weally important it all is

f - turning every available thread (eg the one on wages) into being about migration means you overlook the other more important issues and causatory factors. eg, on wages, it is actually illegal workers who are likely to cause any downward pressure on wages because they are illegal (as was shown quite well in the Loach film) - thus making the reactionary line of baldwin clear.

g - havent you noticed, or are you just not bothered, that your little 'campaign' here has failed miserably? Do you not consider that it could be something to do with the way you argue it, rather than being the fault of everyone else?

a) no i agree migration in itself is NOT a problem .. however it is NOT just housing /workers rights that is the isue .. it ois the way and the scale of how the bosses have encouraged over a million people to come to this country who are prepared to work at rates below what w/c will do here .. without that EU/UK created ability the contradictions of capital would be well and truelly exposed .. as it is they can carry on .. this for the w/c movement is a MASSIVE problem

a2) yes i accept i am am sometimes lazy with amalgamating the left though i have on a number of occassions praised a SP article on the subject BUT the fact remains ALL the left have failed to deal with this subject at the level it is at currently and i think you will find this more and more it will become a bigger and bigger issue .. again i will say where the left fail to tread the right make hay

b) i accept what you say .. but you did not support me when i was being flamed on this .. and i accpet that border controls are not good

c) i think we should do a thread! . i think TB is more of a left wing labourite myself .. he is clearly against neo liberalism ..

d) i am aware that some right wingers like SOME of what i say .. and for their sake i will re state that what i hate most about neo liberal migration is that SPIVVY PARASITICAL TORY WHITE ANGLO SAXON AND OTHER SCUM are profiteering from it

but i would add that right wingers love to be against immigration yet 100% of cheap migrants labour employers ARE right wing .. this contradiction is one the left could make hay with .. but ( mixing my metaphores) are missing an open goal

e) see above!! do you never use capitals?

f) no i do NOT overlook this!!! .. and i am glad you raise it .. and that is exactly the sort of points we shou;d have had on the migration threads .. yet they got turned, by self proclaimed leftists, into constant attacks on the very idea we should discuss this issue

g) so what did i do wrong there exactly? ok yes i can be confrotational ( hey only me???) and i do accept i am not a knotted/urbanrevolt or whoever .. but i do try!! .. and i do NOT lie or make up stuff and i do try to reference .. and p.s. i wasn'y sure it had failed?? do you not support it??

 

[belboid]

how? i have said why but why do you think it makes it worse

illegality makes organising the workers practically impossible. and that is the solution. also it is (as i said in the post tb ignored) that it is those workers rather than legal migrants who are being forced to take the jobs paying less than the going rate. his 'solution' would do nothing about illegal workers, indeed it would create more of them, exacerbating the problem.

g) so what did i do wrong there exactly? ok yes i can be confrotational ( hey only me???) and i do accept i am not a knotted/urbanrevolt or whoever .. but i do try!! .. and i do NOT lie or make up stuff and i do try to reference .. and p.s. i wasn'y sure it had failed?? do you not support it??

thing is, hjow many people can be arsed to read these threads any more? i8f you think i havent backed you up against some bullshit, its because i cant be arsed with all the fucking drivel. this forums turned largely to shite, and one significant reason is the migration obsession, and the way it is argued (balders being a more prime example of how to do so really really badly). Thus, hardly anyone readst hem anymore, except for a laugh, and their is fuck all real, wider, political discussion. That sounds like a failure to me

 

[durruti02]

illegality makes organising the workers practically impossible. and that is the solution. also it is (as i said in the post tb ignored) that it is those workers rather than legal migrants who are being forced to take the jobs paying less than the going rate. his 'solution' would do nothing about illegal workers, indeed it would create more of them, exacerbating the problem.

thing is, hjow many people can be arsed to read these threads any more? i8f you think i havent backed you up against some bullshit, its because i cant be arsed with all the fucking drivel. this forums turned largely to shite, and one significant reason is the migration obsession, and the way it is argued (balders being a more prime example of how to do so really really badly). Thus, hardly anyone readst hem anymore, except for a laugh, and their is fuck all real, wider, political discussion. That sounds like a failure to me

a) fair play .. but i only half agree with this .. as in agriculture and many many other jobs these workers are NOT illegal .. yet are still working for v.low wages

b) sorry again i really think this is rubbish, and you have said unsubstantiated stuff like this in your last 2 posts to me as well

ok so i didn't post for a few weeks in the summer .. did it get loads better?? no i came back and the forum was half dead .. maybe just the summer but i see no massive desire to do other topics ..

and so the forum is turned to shite cos i try to get people to discuss solutions to a) Mori polls biggest issue b) the issue that the far right are utilising the most .. and THIS turns Ppolitics forums too shite?? FFS belboid this is the point .. you still do not want to face reality man .. even fking Respect are starting to notice they have lost the white ( their words ) w/c ... pfi the olympics privatisation food prices etc etc etc .. all these come back to the neo liberal use of immigration .. it underpins the current phase of neo liberal restructuring .. without it they would have to launch a massive attack on the w/c ..

and discussion about ONE issue stops everyone else from debating all the dozens of other threads??? no it does not .. you are scapegoating ..

belboid .. like it or not this issue will get worse and worse for the left .. however much you complain about 'the migration obsession' it ain't going away .. it is the basis of neo liberal restrcuturing in the UK today and until the left get a handle on that we are fucked ..

p.s. and the drivel you talk of? so that is me arguing an anti capitalist line arguing for the closed shop and sustainable emplyment arguing to get kids into usefull jobs arguing to stop spiv employers cutting wages and paying sweat shop wages .. this is what you call drivel?? and you wonder why i as a revolutionary get frustrated??? (deep breath then)

 

[belboid]

there are umpteen factors why this forum has turned to shite - these mindlessly repetitive threads are one of them tho, and you cant deny it. you dont even try to.

no evidence provided for your first point (ie driving DOWN wages) either.

 

[belboid]

<double post>

 

[nino_savatte]

there are umpteen factors why this forum has turned to shite - these mindlessly repetitive threads are one of them tho, and you cant deny it. you dont even try to.

no evidence provided for your first point (ie driving DOWN wages) either.

Innit? If it isn't "immigration", it's "the failure of the left". Instead of working for change, we have people who are prepared to take shots at their own side for the sake of petty sectarian point-scoring.

 

[Streathamite]

only just noticed he also makes the point both TB and myself have been flamed for

" ...while other countries are losing people in the prime of their working life who are taking their talents out of their home nations."

I'd say the diff between you and balders is he proceeds from this point - which no sane person would disagree with - to posit abput a ton of bollox, and you don't

 

[Streathamite]

To most people that makes me Left wing not a right wing turd but to a very narrow minded group of people anybody who strays from left wing orthodoxy is right wing.
.

given that no two UK lefties can agree on anything, what on earth IS 'left wing orthodoxy', other than fictitious?

 

[ska invita]

Leaving aside the artistic merits of the film, what was interesting about the politics of Pauk Laverty's script was that, as well as showing the tough circustances faced by migrants (as you would expect) he also puts in a heavy does of apologeticism for the native Brits who 'abuse' immigrant labour.

Angie: The gangmaster, is ultimately a sympathetic character, who despite abusing the workers, using them for sex (when she calls up 2 radnom lonley guys after getting pissed at a shit club), making money off them by housing them in crap conditions and pocketing the money, etc., is only doing so out of a desperation to get on and look after her son.

The moral here is she tried to get full time work, but the system of flexible labour meant she couldnt hold a job. She was kind of forced to become a gangmaster, the film implies.

This is told with a good dose of grey area, but as I say her charcter is still somewhat sympathetic.

Rosie: Despite being driven by conscience, she goes along for the ride right up to the last minute before quiting, showing how even someone of good conscience might end up exploiting foreign workers. She comes up with the housing scam.

The site foreman: This big fella, who tells Angie not to get mixed up in all this, may be hiring underpaid illegal labour, but again is just a cog in the wheel - so that when he gets beaten up we feel sympathy for him.

The Factory manager: this character who also hires illegals, makes a few little speeches about how the quality of work isnt as good as pre-illegal times. He is forced to fire workers, because they clearly dont do as good a job.

The message here is that if you dont pay a fair wage the quality of work goes down too. This manager, like all the characters, is not made out to be pure evil for hiring, and is used to make a relatively sympathetic point in regards to the quality of work.



Bottom line:This film is far more concentrating on the native aspect in the migrant labour force situation - and it seems keen not to lay blame on those who do the exploiting.

The message is that its bad for both sides. Even people of good conscience will exploit migrant workers - out of a need to survive. Persoanlly I think gangmasters are cunts, but I guess its nice in a film not to have the usual moral tubthumping, and show a different greyer moral area.

So the film ends up blaming the lack of regular, well-paid work, both at home and abroad - fair point - but perhaps some of the native links in the chain get off a little lightly IMO.



2nd Bottom line!:
Personally I am glad for the EU open borders - Isnt that what anarchists and others campaigning for "NO Borders" want? It is what I want.

Perhaps one way of solving the workers problem would be to enforce the minimum wage, keep pushing for a higher minimum wage, get migrant workers unionised.

The film makes the point that the law will not enforce the exploitation - that needs to be addressed. In the meantime pressure should also bare down on the employer to pay fairly - the film lets employers off the hook a bit on this point IMO.

 

[tbaldwin]

given that no two UK lefties can agree on anything, what on earth IS 'left wing orthodoxy', other than fictitious?

I think Left wing orthodoxy is not fictitious. I would describe it as a basic belief in Socialism from above.....And i think that most people from Tony Benn, Ken Livingstone, Ken Loach,Harold Pinter,Pilger,SWP etc etc do have a set of beliefs that fit into what i would see as Left wing orthodoxy....
Unthinking and unrealistic.
On racism,crime,migration and the public sector there views are predictable and largely nonsense and ultimately reactionary.

 

[belboid]

says the man who wants to see would be migrants shot!

 

[tbaldwin]

says the man who wants to see would be migrants shot!

Yeah, of course thats what id like.......
Cos anybody who disagrees with you must be a nazi......

"Belboid come and tidy your room"

" Dont you oppress me!"

 

[belboid]

it's the inevitable consequences of your 'solution' baldy. Funny how you dont like it when your argumentative 'method' is turned back on you isnt it? Hypocrite.

And, I note that as ever you have failed entirely to respond to the points pointing out precisely why your 'solution' would completely and utterly fail to meet its goals.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I saw the film last week. It just reiterates the fact that our society brutalises people to the point where exploiting other humans worse off becomes acceptable in thier struggle for survival.

 

[tbaldwin]

it's the inevitable consequences of your 'solution' baldy. Funny how you dont like it when your argumentative 'method' is turned back on you isnt it? Hypocrite.

And, I note that as ever you have failed entirely to respond to the points pointing out precisely why your 'solution' would completely and utterly fail to meet its goals.

I think that supporting mass emigration is a bit like supporting slavery...Only something that somebody could do out of ignorance or hate.

A genuine free for all would lead to an almost unimaginable human catostrophe.

Yes in a world that is so unequal,harsh measures are needed to stop mass migration.

But i would rather support those policies than the genocidal ones you and others on here want.

Do you really imagine that if border controls were removed all over the world it would lead to anything but an increase in inequality and starvation.

Do you support TU rights,Pensions, a minimum wage......

Do you think that it could work if every country just threw open its borders?

Your free market solution to immigration is just supporting a survival of the fittest style politics.

 

[belboid]

you've ignored the points again havent you cuntface? Simply repeating yourself doesnt answer anything.

But at least you agree that you'd happilly see would be migrants shot and drowned.

Your racist solution is just supporting the rights of the few over the many.

 

[Streathamite]

I think Left wing orthodoxy is not fictitious. I would describe it as a basic belief in Socialism from above.....And i think that most people from Tony Benn, Ken Livingstone, Ken Loach,Harold Pinter,Pilger,SWP etc etc do have a set of beliefs that fit into what i would see as Left wing orthodoxy....
Unthinking and unrealistic.
On racism,crime,migration and the public sector there views are predictable and largely nonsense and ultimately reactionary.

if you think that ken and the swappies have any views left in common you're barking, tbh

 

[tbaldwin]

if you think that ken and the swappies have any views left in common you're barking, tbh

Livingstone?

Of course he has many views in common......Some of them he may choose to keep to himself.....
Both see themselves as the saviours of the working class etc.
Both think anybody who argues against mass migration must be at least a bit dodgy.
Both think HE students should get more money!!!!!
Both think that bringing in tougher punishments for anti social criminals is reactionary.......

 

[tbaldwin]

you've ignored the points again havent you cuntface? Simply repeating yourself doesnt answer anything.

But at least you agree that you'd happilly see would be migrants shot and drowned.

Your racist solution is just supporting the rights of the few over the many.

1 So why do you keep doing it?

2 NO......I just said it would be preferable to the widespread genocide you seem to support.

3 Racist? Against who?
I think its you who has something to think about when it comes to supporting racist policies, belboid.