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Ken Livingstone says Trevor Philips should join the BNP

poster342002 said:
What's needed, of course, is loads of signs all over the places with his jobtitle on them. And billboards informing us that "WE ARE LONDONERS And a bid for the olympics without consulting Londoners or giving any space to the arguments against it. :rolleyes:

I support all of the above.

He's trying to foster an inclusive London identity. Whats wrong with that?

Olympics will help in this too - it really is a celebration of global culture.

Oh, and there was a consultation, and the majority of Londoners supported the bid (eventually). I admit however that this consultation, as all consultations, are pure pretence at dialogue.
 
Dissident Junk said:
Hummm . . . this is not multiculturalism. What you describe above is interculturalism: where people learn about other people's music, food, literature, festivals etc.
[...]

Multiculturalism is a circumstance where separate cultures exist in a geographical space, are seen as of equal validity, but do not and should not intersect. Multiculturalism is a warping of ideas about cultural relativism, where stasis and separation are seen to protect a perceived culture, as the only way to avoid 'racism', and is seen to, therefore, protect and address the needs of a culture's members.

your distinction between interculturalism and multiculturalism sounds logical, however I think I can safely say that multiculturlism is universally used in Britain in a way that includes "interculturalism".

The biggest statement on the subject was made by the Runnymede commision, which called for a "community of commuities" - the soundbite that the report was boiled down to. What this means is, yes, lets allow for groups to create their own communities (be that norfolk villagers or Sri Lankans in Lewisham), but lets work to bring those subset communities into broader mixed communities.

I have never heard any proponent of multiculturalism in Britain arguing for segregated communities, which is what I feel your distinction implies.

your "should not intersect" bit is , I think, totally wrong. I would be shocked to find a proponent of multiculturalism who says that communities "should not intersect". I dont think you could find a single, credible source that does.
 
niksativa said:
I support all of the above.

He's trying to foster an inclusive London identity. Whats wrong with that?

Olympics will help in this too - it really is a celebration of global culture.

Oh, and there was a consultation, and the majority of Londoners supported the bid (eventually). I admit however that this consultation, as all consultations, are pure pretence at dialogue.
The olympics wil be an excerise in jacking up prices, rents and invconvenice for the ordinary people of London whilst generating gravy trains for it's rich - how "inclusive" is that? And I don't remeber ever bing consulted in any way shape or form - just lots of ways to register a "back the bid" endorsment via mobile textmessage with no option given for voting "no". A bit like one of those fucked up referendums they used to have in the Soviet bloc.

The moronic posters are just that - moronic propaganda that doesn't make people "one" (behind HIM, of course :rolleyes: ) nomatter how much they insist.
 
niksativa said:
I support all of the above.

He's trying to foster an inclusive London identity. Whats wrong with that?

Olympics will help in this too - it really is a celebration of global culture.

.

is this for real or sarcasm?

the olympics is nothing but a money making scam and part of the expansion of the City/Canary Wharf into Stratford .. local people are already getting shafted as well as money being taken away from grassroots sport ..
 
Haven't been able to find it (too busy at the mo and only just remembered) but some poll was taken asking something like "Who do you trust more on race relations; Ken or Trevor?" Apparently 80% said Ken.
 
Kid_Eternity said:
Haven't been able to find it (too busy at the mo and only just remembered) but some poll was taken asking something like "Who do you trust more on race relations; Ken or Trevor?" Apparently 80% said Ken.

Hardly suprising. On the one hand you have a man who has consistantly defended minority rights thoughout his political career and on the other you have a guy who went from holding Louis Farrakhan style views to being the Daily Mail's model pupil within a matter of years.
 
Interesting recent article from IWCA on the issue...

Motion sickness

Main parties still lack stomach for open debate on multiculturalism writes Stuart Craft

For the third time the IWCA has submitted a motion (below right) to Oxford City Council, calling on the authority to refrain from allocating tax-payers money along ethnic and religious lines and to ensure that it only funds projects that are open to all citizens regardless of their ethnic or religious background.

Once again councillors from all parties, including Blackbird Leys Labour councillor Rae Humberstone, pledged their further support for racial and religious segregation by voting against this proposal.

The motion itself could hardly have been laid out in a more simple fashion.

I even explained the intention behind it for those who still failed to grasp the straightforward concept of equality of access to council resources and the inherent danger of a strategy that encourages applicants to exaggerate their cultural differences in order to secure council funding.

But even though the progressive politics behind the IWCA’s proposal had been exhaustively explained on two previous occasions, councillors from the other parties once again refused to seriously confront this important issue.

In place of debate they whipped up the usual contrived smokescreen by attacking and misrepresenting the IWCA.

These attacks ranged from deliberate falsehoods to outright stupidity.

Dan Paskins-Andrew Smith’s right-hand man-first claimed that there is in fact no city council funding of projects along ethnic/religious lines but then went on to fatally undermine this claim by assuring us that ‘there is no cause for alarm as only a tiny percentage of the council’s total expenditure’ is used on such schemes.

Obviously Cllr Paskins feels that segregation in principle is perfectly acceptable.

Paskins’ colleague, Oxford Labour Party’s deputy leader Ed Turner proclaimed loudly, ‘I never take any IWCA motion seriously!’

However, he was then reminded that he had previously supported IWCA objections, at an area committee meeting, to funding for a Muslim-only Eid party on the grounds that council funds should only be spent on functions open to all residents.

At this, Cllr Turner fell silent and turned purple with embarrassment.

Labour Leader Bob Price was, notably, also silent.

Under a separate agenda item earlier in the meeting Price had asked the council to consider funding exclusive free swimming at Hinksey pool for ‘Muslim mothers’.

Yet he voiced no opinion on the IWCA motion.

Matt Sellwood of the Green Party voiced what everyone else knew but would not admit as it ran contrary to their anti-IWCA agenda-that the motion is anti-racist in intent.

Yet when it came to the vote, Cllr Sellwood, along with half his Green colleagues, voted against (the rest of the Greens abstained), on the grounds that he sees ‘much good’ in the political strategy of multiculturalism.

The Lib Dems failed miserably to articulate any credible arguments against the motion.

The ruling group’s feeble attacks against the IWCA were summed up by Clark Brundin’s ludicrous suggestion that the IWCA is ‘out to stop the Chinese New Year celebrations.’

More seriously, the Lib Dems’ Alan Armitage accused the IWCA of playing into the hands of the BNP, a claim which is more irksome in the context of (unattributed) whispered allegations that the IWCA is itself somehow ‘fascist’.

Given the BNP’s support for separatism (and its anti-working class, ultra-conservative politics) this ridiculous statement reveals either a severe lack of political insight or a desire to undermine genuine working class organisation at all costs. Of course these two explanations are by no means mutually exclusive.

With a general reduction in the allocation of local and national government funds to the working class (regardless of ethnicity), the political strategy of multiculturalism plays an important role.

By encouraging people to exaggerate their cultural differences in order to ‘win’ funding for youth clubs, schools, and other amenities, different sections of the working class are dissuaded from working together for the common good.

Meanwhile, middle class careerists from ethnic minority backgrounds are placated through potentially lucrative positions within the ‘race relations industry’ and through a myriad of state-funded separatist projects across the country.

Yet these schemes provide little benefit for working class members of ethnic minority groups.

The perception of special treatment, however, encourages resentment not just within the majority white working class, who understandably feel aggrieved at the injustice of racialised funding from which they are excluded, but also between different minority groups battling each other over funds.

In the confusion created by this complex situation, most overlook the fact that the slice of the pie that the working class receive, across the board, continues to be reduced at an alarming rate.

This, from the establishment’s point of view, is the whole point of course.

The promotion of multiculturalism was never intended as a stepping-stone to universal social justice-but as a replacement for it.

Whatever the view of individual councillors, New Labour’s enthusiastic adoption of multiculturalist ideas such as schools segregated by religion is less motivated by a concern for ethnic minorities, or even winning votes, and more by the desire to ensure that the working class remains divided and demoralised while they continue to drive through their devastating right-wing agenda.

For us, the choice for the future is stark: either we draw together progressively-minded working class people in pursuit of our common interests, or we sit back and allow the seeds of their right wing political strategy of multiculturalism to produce its bitter fruit-the disintegration of our communities and the growth of political and religious extremism.

The inherent dangers within multiculturalism have been chronicled for many years.

But more recently, concerns about where the strategy is leading us have been raised in more unexpected quarters.

Both the Chair of the Commission for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips, and the first black Bishop of York, John Sentamu, for example, have expressed concerns over the way multiculturalism is increasingly leaving our society fragmented and divided.

But perhaps more pertinently, in the aftermath of the handing out of life sentences to members of an Asian gang who killed Isaiah Young-Sam, a 23-year-old Afro-Caribbean man, in riots in the Lozells area of Birmingham last October, a local ‘race campaigner’ has blamed the allocation of resources along racial lines as a major component in the polarisation of Lozells into separate Asian and black communities.

Multiculturalist projects, it is argued, have contributed to much of the resentment and hatred that festers within these communities, a hatred for which an innocent young man paid the ultimate price.

The city councillors of Oxford who continue to deny that there is any problem with a strategy that produces such devastating results should, if they are not prepared to listen to the IWCA, at least listen to these disparate voices of dissent that are at last challenging the current, bankrupt orthodoxy.



Leys Independent, issue 33, August 2006
 
The problem with the above is that if it is a question of equal access to council services then some separate provision may be required - this is not "politically correct multiculturalism" but fairness and inclusion.
To take Craft's argument logically further might be that funding for disabled access was dividing the working class by allocating more funds to the disabled than the able bodied, or that funding old folk's Christmas Parties was dividing the working class along religious lines. So I can see why Matt and some of his colleagues voted against or abstained, and can also see that the IWCA meant their motion to be anti-racist, but I just don't see that they had thought through the full implications.
Having said that, I haven't read the motion, heard the debate or seen the Oxford context, but that is how it seems from Craft's article. I think the implication that muslims in particular "exaggerate" their cultural and religious beliefs (encouraged or not by the state) to get extra funding is particularly offensive - and in itself divisive of the working class.
 
greenman said:
The problem with the above is that if it is a question of equal access to council services then some separate provision may be required - this is not "politically correct multiculturalism" but fairness and inclusion.
What separate provision on grounds of religion or race do you support, Greenman?
 
JHE said:
What separate provision on grounds of religion or race do you support, Greenman?

Well, I did not say the provision should be separate on grounds of religion, and certainly not on grounds of race (you are just being silly there). But pragmatically, if you only have mixed swimming sessions at the local baths, say, then people from some sections of the community are going to be denied access to that community resource due to their cultural background.
So separate provision on grounds of gender may be necessary to ensure equal access.
 
greenman said:
Well, I did not say the provision should be separate on grounds of religion, and certainly not on grounds of race (you are just being silly there). But pragmatically, if you only have mixed swimming sessions at the local baths, say, then people from some sections of the community are going to be denied access to that community resource due to their cultural background.
So separate provision on grounds of gender may be necessary to ensure equal access.
I'm not against women-only sessions at swimming pools - and IME they are widespread. I am against the sort of time-table at the swimming pool in Lower Clapton when I last lived in Hackney. It included sessions specially for 'Jewish men and boys', others for 'Muslim men and boys'. I have read of a variety of places where there are sessions specifically for 'Asian women'.

This sort of bollocks has become accepted.

I'm glad you make no attempt to defend it.
 
JHE said:
I'm not against women-only sessions at swimming pools - and IME they are widespread. I am against the sort of time-table at the swimming pool in Lower Clapton when I last lived in Hackney. It included sessions specially for 'Jewish men and boys', others for 'Muslim men and boys'. I have read of a variety of places where there are sessions specifically for 'Asian women'.

This sort of bollocks has become accepted.

I'm glad you make no attempt to defend it.

This is a great issue to raise - Hackney does have very large Jewish and Muslim populations and strict and poius religions like these do love making rules up for what you can and cant do.

Should we help to provide tax paying religious types with their particular wishes? Well, if there are enough people, perhaps so. The only difference between all women swimming and all male jewish swimming is that you no doubt, like myself, think religion is a farce, whilst you respect that women havea right to privacy.

I dont think the difference is that great to be honest, and I think this is a genuine grey area. There is a complex and case by case process that has to be done in resolving issues like this.

My commtiment to multiculturalism says we should be respectful of difference as much as possible, and that by supporting the wishes of groups you build their confidence in the society they live in, and draw them into the social and political processes of the country they live in. Not doing so truly isolates minority groups and hardens identities.

There is a danger that this type of activity perpetautes a behaviour that you and I might rather wish didnt go on - to a large extent that is true - on the other hand you make people less isolated and more invovled and overtime more integrated, and therefore overtime I believe the desire to have such things will fade out. Its not a easy thing to follow, and you could acuse me of reverse logic, but I see a sense in it.

I think a policy of patience and hospitality to different cultures is the first duty and overtime I believe this approach makes a more cohesive and integrated society.

This example of swimming is a tough one though.

(Private) Faith schools should be allowed, but not supported by government. I would love there to be no faith schools, but that borders on stalinism and state social engineering. Over time we will all inegrate, and in the meantime lets help each other out, is what it boils down to, for me anyway.

Interested to hear what you think to that (no swearing please).
 
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