Keep Paddick Campaign

Discussion in 'Brixton' started by hatboy, Mar 18, 2002.

  1. han

    han brixton hill hobbit

    I found the meeting last night totally inspiring. To have such a diverse group of people from different sections of the community (Christian, Jewish, black, white, old, young, etc...) all in support of a GAY public figure is pretty unusual, in my opinion, and very special. A good sign that things might be getting to the point where they should be - that a public figure can be judged by what they've achieved, not the irrelevance of their sexual preference. And to have that level of support for a policeman, in Brixton - a sign that Paddick is considered the right person for the job.

    The journalists at the Mail On Sunday, however, are practically harking back to the dark ages of medieval witch hunts!


    Hatboy's contribution was right - it's GOOD that there was dissent at the meeting, it's healthy. There are ways of going about it, though, and screaming hysterically is not the right one.

    As the Green party bloke said.....we've all got to keep the campaign going so that Paddick is not allowed to 'disappear' into a lengthy, never-ending investigation....
     
  2. pooka

    pooka Can't Re Member

    What next?

    Picking up on earlier postings, what next? Here's a contribution to get the ball rolling.

    (Haven't yet got the hang of being concise but comprehensive, but here goes:)

    Who needs persuading?

    Ostensibly, the Met and the MPA, but would be highly surprising if the Home Office were not also in there somewhere, including political advisors and ministers.

    Are they persuadable?

    It may be that they have already given up on PB, in which case we can all come home. But we have no evidence to prove that and have to recognise that they did appoint him and approve his methods and specifically the cannabis trial. If they ditch him, then it is with some cost to themselves, howsoever finessed. Indeed, as I suggested last night, it may be that these people are as alarmed at the turn of events as we are.

    What might persuade them?

    A genuine, broad cross community support and support from the movers and shakers. Howsoever elating last nights meeting may have been, it can all too easily be dismissed as just 300 people out of a borough population of 272 k.

    Gathering signatures for petitions is fine, but time consuming and unlikely to go above a few thousand. The declared support of identifiable constituencies is probably more effective. Who might they be?

    Well, seems to me you might start with the groups who confront the practical consequences of street crime and drug related community damage. For starters.

    Voluntary organisations like Victim Support;
    Neighbourhood watches;
    Chamber of Commerce
    Parent Teachers Asscociations
    Law Centres;
    Family Practioner Groups
    Teaching Unions
    Residents Associations
    Pensioner Groups.
    The Council/Local Parties (who have been markedly quiet so far)
    Church groups

    How might their support be enlisted?

    A good way to get people on board is simply to ask their advice and opinions. Canvassing opinion across these, and similar groupings would be a good starting point - and we would would have to accept the risk that we might find that support is not as wide as we think.

    But to do this in practical terms means more organisation, more letters written, calls made, than can be put together through a web site - how might it happen?

    And not to forget the media. From my recall, useful pieces have been written by:

    Simon Jenkins (Times)
    Michael Gove (Times)
    Polly Toynbee (Guardian)
    David Aaronovitch (Independent)
    Sussan Moore (Independent)

    Might these people not be contacted for advice and contacts?

    About to retire to bed with a stinking cold - will check back later.

    Pooka
     
  3. detective-boy

    detective-boy Banned Banned

    Pooka and Mrs M - excellent posts - you sum the situation up admirably.

    The last post above this raises an interesting issue. I think the Met stands on the edge of a unique win situation with regards to community relations. BP needs to be investigated swiftly (i.e. days or weeks), given a bollocking for anything he has done wrong and re-instated to Lambeth. He should then be encouraged to build on this unprecedented community support with some more ground breaking initiatives (Brian, if you want some ideas, let me know).

    Will they do it? I don't know but if anyone will, it's John Stevens.
     
  4. theoderic

    theoderic Apostate

    Tactics

    I've been aware of some very interesting stuff on this thread over the last day or so, and I'm sorry lack of time precludes my fuller participation right now.

    Detective-boy makes a very strong tactical point on the advantages to the Met of a speedy and favourable resolution.

    As I see it, we hold the high ground, and as long as we keep it, we'll win. So more of the same - keep up the petitioning and the emailing, keep it high-profile even if media coverage has peaked. And keep it clean;) .

    We should maintain and extend the non-confrontational street presence we established last Saturday. We need to be visible.

    Propaganda apart, the most positive outcome of the Assembly Rooms meeting was the amendment passed at the end calling for Brian's reinstatement immediately, prior to the conclusion of the inquiry. I'm surprised more hasn't been made of it in this thread. A quick denouement is what we're going for now, and pressure on this point can only help to speed things up.

    DB, I'd welcome your insider's take on this. To reinstate an officer while under investigation would be unusual, perhaps unprecedented. But would it actually be impossible?
     
  5. William of Walworth

    William of Walworth Festographer

    Pooka

    Excellent post but don't forget Deborah Orr on the Independent, she's been good too, and she's posted one or two positive messages here!
     
  6. Brian

    Brian Local friendly ex-cop

    Thank you all so much for all you are doing and especially for the other night.

    I feel desparately sorry for Mrs Bishop - no matter what happened (investigation, legal issues, no comment, blah, blah), no-one deserves to die in the circumstances that Ricky died in.

    Mrs Bishop has been to numerous public meetings, rallies and marches (see Movement for Justice March thread - Mrs Bishop was there, I saw her and spoke to her). Unfortunately I believe she is now being exploited by others (although I guess they would say the same thing is happening to me).

    I am keeping the faith. More than anything I want to get back to work as the Borough Commander in Lambeth. I am not doing any more media. Now I think it is time for me to sit quietly and let it all die down. Having said that, 'The Mail' are at it again today.

    At the end of the day I am NOT the Messiah, I am human and I make mistakes. Please forgive me if I put a foot wrong sometimes.

    Brian
     
  7. newbie

    newbie undisambiguated

    Not the Messiah?

    Damn, I was thinking of Brockwell Park pond for the walking on water bit.
     
  8. Mr Day

    Mr Day Guest

    I am keeping the faith.


    v gld to hear it

    I am not doing any more media. Now I think it is time for me to sit quietly and let it all die down. Having said that, 'The Mail' are at it again today.

    You just can't keep a scummy newspaper down - I think sitting quietly for a bit is probably a sound idea. Let things sink in a bit

    At the end of the day I am NOT the Messiah
    Brian [/B][/QUOTE]


    Damn !!! And I've been sat on this website for weeks waiting for the loaves and fishes to be passed around :) seriously though I'd like to say Hurray it's a long weekend, the suns shining, have a good weekend BP and everyone else here
     
  9. theoderic

    theoderic Apostate

    What next?

    Pooka.

    We're not democratic centralists here (my 2nd favourite oxymoron). All can advocate, none can prescribe.

    Which is as it should be.

    If you're able and willing to pursue the avenues you suggest, go for it. All the best.

    But be careful. When you're dealing with the great, the good and the media-hungry, always watch your back. We use them, that's good. They use us - not so good.

    Anybody who hasn't drawn that lesson from the campaign so far should lay off the white widow for a couple of days.

    Specifically, re your last post:-

    Michael Gove is a bargepole and a half to the right of anyone here;
    Polly Toynbee is a loose cannon at best - no telling which way she'll fire;
    ... and so on.

    And as for the local parties - well, I'm on record as refusing to carry any party's banner. It goes without saying they all have an agenda, so what I've said above goes in spades.

    I'm not tarring them all with the same brush, but it certainly helps to know who you're dealing with.

    To move on a bit (I'm limited in the number of posts I can make at the moment).

    Nothing right now should be allowed to deflect from the goal of the immediate reinstatement of Brian Paddick.

    But what after that? Wouldn't an exemplary kicking of the MoS (at least) provide both justice and satisfaction?

    Through the courts, or on the streets.

    By any means necessary.

    But this, as somebody's bound to point out, is for another thread.

    [Edited for typos]
     
  10. pooka

    pooka Can't Re Member

    What's next?

    William of Walworth - I think I meant Deborah Orr not Susanne Moore, bit muddle headed last night

    Brian - Just to say hang in there. I'm a brixton resident of 14 years, politically inactive for about 20 or more, the "only" drugs I do are alcohol and nicotine..... but the good sense of what you're trying to do and the sheer injustice and squalor of the Mails camapign has drawn me here and to the Town Hall on Tuesday, together with your own candid and thoughtful manner demonstrated on these pages.

    A suggestion - when you get your job back you could set up your own bulletin board for Brixton Police. Urban75 is excellent, but there will be a lot of people in the community who will be put off by the "anarchist" labelling. Sad I know, but the reality. You have demonstrated how good a medium it is for free exchange with the public. But if you do, make sure to keep away the media handlers, spin doctors &tc - they are the very death to trust and confidence.

    Theodoric -

    I understand the words in your first sentence but not sure I have the meaning. Seems to me that if you dismiss democracy and some degree of centrism, then you throw out the notion of the law and its policing? But I think it might need a separate thread for you to put me right !

    Won't go on. Just to say that if the lever is widespread support then it has to be demonstrated, and it has to be broader than this website. I set out one way of doing that. Others may have better ideas. And no, I don't think it's something one person can set about on their tod - they are a likely to come across as an obsesive crank and so be ineffective as well as there only being so many hours any one person can put in.

    As above, the significance of the jouurnos was their very diversity - sure, Micheal Gove is a Thatcherite rebirthed by Portillo, Polly Toynbee is a New Labour friendly Social Democratic. Likewise my comment about political parties. Surely the strongest arguement is that support for BP is primarily pragmatic. for his style of policing and the results its getting, and not based on political or philosophical axe grinding?

    As for the Mail. My own feeling is that action on the streets may make the partcipants feel good, but rarely persudes anyone. Exceptions are when its grannies to babes in arms and its in marginal constituences - as with the Poll tax - or its seismic stuff like Paris in 68. I'm not sure were talking either of those here. As for the courts, the libel laws are a rich man's pasture I'm afraid.

    But there is a need to think through sustainable ways for ordinary people to challange the dominance of the press in our lives and I suggest you set up a thread for this.

    Sorry to go on - I seem incapable of writing short postings! Must get back to work.

    Best,

    Pooka
     
  11. pooka

    pooka Can't Re Member


    Heartened to hear that, detective-boy - why do you think so?
     
  12. theoderic

    theoderic Apostate

    Weekend

    I'm available for any mundane legwork required this weekend, but I really need to know today, or I'm out of town.

    But remember, no party-specific banners on my patch!

    Pooka, thanks for yours, but I'll have to get back to you later.
     
  13. detective-boy

    detective-boy Banned Banned

    Tactics

    As Cmdr Paddick has not been suspended, just moved administratively to another job temporarily, and especially as his post has not been filled by someone else (his deputy is looking after things), there is nothing to stop his being returned to Lambeth even before the investigation is complete.

    That said, it would be unlikely as it would appear inconsistent - take him away, send him back ... I think the best bet is to hope enquiry to be done as quickly as possible (and, unfortunately, these things do have a habit of dragging on ... and on ... and on ...).

    Pooka - Why do I think if anyone will, John Stevens will? Because he is an extremely able and savvy chief officer. I am sure that he will see that, no matter what his own opinion about Brian Paddick is, there is a once in a lifetime opportunity to move community relations on by a quantum leap. And, oh yeah, he's one of the most decisive chief officers I've ever met.
     
  14. pooka

    pooka Can't Re Member

    Rely to Theodoric and Detective Boy

    Detective Boy - thanks for that. Also note comment attributed to Stevens that the Brixton trial results are the best ever achieved by the Met.

    Given what you say about immediate reinstatement being unlikely, then perhaps the real virtue of the "amendment to the resolution" (god, that phrase takes me back and sends a chill down my spine!) calling for it is that it gives the MPA something to say no to?

    Incidentally, presumably the easiest way for this thing to be brought to a close would be for James Whatsit to withdraw his allegations?

    Theodoric - my post "what's next?" was in fact in further to yours saying "Town Hall meeting all well and good but what do we do now". What ideas did you have in mind?

    Like Theodoric, I can make some time available over the weekend - prob BH Monday - for mundane leg work, if anyone has some lined up.

    pooka
     
  15. bbsnews

    bbsnews New Member

    BBSNews coverage

    Over at BBSNews we are pleased as can be at the support that Brian Paddick and his policies are getting. There is still plenty of coverage here of the issue. http://bbsnews.net/page-two.phtml has a live news query which is providing up to the hour (or so)news matching Brian Paddick Lambeth as search terms and links to the most recent research to the story in Lambeth as well.

    Y'all have a perfect opportunity there and the correspondence that I've received here at BBSNews recently bears this out.

    You are living in an incubator of an idea that was long past coming, simple common sense in policing. And acceptance of everybody for who they are as long as they are not attacking people or stealing their property. A libertarian idea that "they" said would never work.

    I believe as others do that your community and Brian Paddick and his policies are the cusp of a new reality, like maybe for once real truth, that is within our grasp. The folks that emailed me about the meeting all had the same fire in their eyes.

    Like Mrs. MagPie I see some hope that was not there before. Maybe these years of work have not been for nothing. So I shamelessly offer BBSNews for the cause.

    Like Mike Slocombe at http://urban75.com I believe in no ads, no crap, just the content I promise. And that means no pop-ups.

    When the editorial staff over here at BBSNews gets behind an idea we do so because we believe in it. I first personally registered voters for marijuana law reform in 1976. It's long overdue and ridiculous that a person can kill themselves by smoking tobacco legally and be jailed for smoking a plant that the Lancet says is "relatively harmless, even long term."

    The US Drug Czar is currently telling American teens through millions of dollars of advertising that they are responsible for 9/11 by smoking a joint or using ecstasy during the weekend. Even so far as to have a teen say on camera "I helped murder a Colombian Judge." And they even show box cutters. Please don't let your country do such stupid things.

    My suggestion would be just to stay with the common sense of the ideas shown to be workable by the Paddick Policies. And stick with it. Common sense can't fail to deliver what one expects.

    Fairness and justice.

    Michael Hess
    Editor, BBSNews
    http://bbsnews.net
     
  16. newbie

    newbie undisambiguated

    pookie I'm not sure about what "comment attributed to Stevens that the Brixton trial results are the best ever achieved by the Met" actually means. I heard him say, on the radio, that Haringey crime reduction figures are better than Lambeth, but using more standard methods. I've no idea what that means (except that reliance on statistics is dodgey)- anyone from Haringey care to comment?

    As for whatsit to withdraw the allegations, that isn't really possible- BP has admitted that at least two are true (allowing premises, and association on bail), and the allegations have been published, not made as a complaint which could be withdrawn.

    Rolling the allegations up into 'bringing the police into disrepute' and using the public clamour to show that that just isn't the case may provide a face saving mechanism for Stevens to reinstate Brian. I don't think I'd approve of that in different circumstances: imagine a commander who was outed as a fox hunter after being overly restrictive of sabs- would a public clamour to reinstate be acceptable? There is an old saying that hard cases make bad law, and it may well apply here: however hard on Brian the precedent may be a serious longterm problem.
     
  17. pooka

    pooka Can't Re Member

    I think it was in coverage of the press conference releasing the results of the trial - but may have related to the support measured by the MORI poll rather than the trial results themselves. Don't have time to search at the moment, but will do......

    Take your point about whatsit....

    I think your analogy about the fox-hunting commander is an interesting one - raises the issue of how variable policing methods can be across the country and whether we townies would be if a rural police service chose to be lax in prosecuting a hunting ban, if such is ever introduced.

    However, the analogy you make isn't exact but would be if the fox-hunting commander had introduced an explicit policy with the appoval of his superiors and police authority. In which case he would just be doing his job.

    pooka (though "pookie"'s kinda sweet :) )
     
  18. VotePaddick

    VotePaddick Guest

    keeping the message tight

    there is such a volume of constuctive debate developing here that it might be called the 'Fourth Way'.

    As with the media face facts; colomnists criticize and could start a fight in an empty house. Jounalists write what the editor wants and the editor's job is to sell papers.

    I know its Easter and we shouldn't be expecting PB to rise again on Sunday ( I hope this doesn't offend on religious grounds ) and very little progress will be made while Parliament is in recess. However I did read the annual report on Tuesday and it should from Rt Hon David Blunkett's opening summary suggest that a question could be tabled in parliament. But this is of course a bit highbrow for us in Lambeth to consider.

    I'd like to propose a St. Paddicks Day.
    Or a ReinSt. Paddick something cathchy like that.
    Sometime in the near future to keep the massage alive.

    With 10 qualified reasons why he should be reinstated so that everyone knows exactly what the demo is about.
    Quotes from Ken Livingstone and prominent church figures things like that.

    Create a carnival, lots of sections from the community with their own ideas and descend on a spot in Lambeth.

    The best way to stick two fingers up to the Daily Mail is to have religous leaders espousing their views as was done on Tues.

    Middle England then might just get an idea of what Lambeth is about.
     
  19. hatboy

    hatboy Banned Banned

    Excellent idea VoteP. I think this will come together in April. Not sure yet. I've heard other people propose a St Paddicks day. Next week all the different people in this will hopefully be able to get together and start firming the next big date up. I think Windrush Square and a fun atmosphere like you suggest. Maybe a sound system?
     
  20. GaryJenkins

    GaryJenkins totally banned Banned

    Total respect to all Urban 75ites who feel so strongly re Brian Paddick's exile that you're trying to do something about it. However I'm puzzled about the claim from some of Brian's disciples that there has been a Paddick-inspired reduction in crime during his time in Lambeth.

    He became Divisional Commander in December 2000

    The Met Police website shows crime levels in Lambeth for the first 11 months of the current year (ie April 2001-Feb 2002) as follows


    Violent crime 7493
    Robbery 5760
    All crime 52178

    Equivalent figures for the previous year (ie April 2000-Feb 2001)

    Violent crime 7280
    Robbery 4188
    All crime 46656


    So in Paddick's first year there has been a 3% increase in violent crime, a 38% increase in robbery and a 12% increase in all crimes.

    It's perhaps fairer to compare Lambeth with London as a whole rather than using the raw figures. The London figures over the same period show a 5% increase in violent crime, a 29% increase in robberies and a 7% increase in all crime.

    So no evidence of Messianic tendencies, indeed a worse performance than other parts of London with less enlightened Divisional Commanders.

    I'm not saying these figures are conclusive, but if my arithmetic is correct then people are entitled to be Doubting Thomases at Brian's supper table.
     
  21. hatboy

    hatboy Banned Banned

    Yeah but we know what it's like to live here. There was a mad patch about 9 or 10 months ago, but things have got better since then. I think you've been very selective with the statistics, especially as you've been here before and your opinions aren't exactly reformist when it comes to the Police. I remember how dismissive you were of the Stephen Lawrence enquiry.

    Whatever the stats Brian Paddick is respected locally because he is humane, honest and approachable. Look at the BBC report titled "Paddick wins hearts and minds" if you want to see how genuinely popular he is here.

    Remember the Mori poll: 83% of Lambeth people polled supported his policies. But more than that, people also respect the man. Because he seems like one of us, rather than some far off bully-boy or bureaucrat (sp?) like so many police and politicians.
     
  22. VotePaddick

    VotePaddick Guest

    Thanks Hatboy for your praise. Its always good to get feedback from a TV personality.

    On the subject of St. Paddicks day and two fingers to the Mail. How about an 11 oclock start with some classical music recorded if necessary followed by a sunshine opera - la traviata springs to mind and let the middle classes mingle before more inductive music.

    May sound poncy but bits of Brixton lit up one day ( sound system permitting ) with Verdi, Brahams, and Wagner ( nazi overtones omitted ) could throw the police into complete confusion.

    Chopin for repetitive beats if we want to get arrested.

    Perhaps I've had too many sherries. But I like the thought of relaxed folk wandering to the sound majestic tunes culminating around Mozart's 'A Musical Joke' K.522 4th presto really putting the squash on these idiots' reaction down.

    Good Press.

    Brixton revels in classical carnival to celebrate the return of 19th century ideas -- that is my irony.

    Then go fucking ballistic after sunset.
     
  23. Mrs Magpie

    Mrs Magpie On a bit of break...

    I'd favour Shostakovich. The Leningrad perhaps?
    :)
     
  24. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Gary: you should be judging crime figures after Paddick introduced his drugs policy:
     
  25. John Wisehammer

    John Wisehammer lifestyle trendy vicar

    Firstly, from a statistical point of view, figures of 3% and 5% are insignificant when recorded by thousands of different respondants in different places and different criteria - there's just too much policy for error. (Interestingly, you could also perfectly truthfully say that the rate of growth of violent crime in Lambeth has been 2% lower than across London as a whole since Paddick began - but that's just playing data games to make it sound positive). Obviously the bigger numbers will have more worth - fair enough.

    Secondly, as we all know, crime figures are notoriously poor indicators of the *actual* level of crime going on and the way they're compiled can produce counterintuitive results. For instance, you could easily find that the switch of policing away from cannabis to other crime actually shows an increase in other crime - simply because cops are spending more time attending to, recording and (hopefully) investigating crime. This might or might not have been the case in Lambeth since the policy introduction - only a very concentrated micro-level study would tell you anything with any sort of certainty - but those raw numbers alone won't tell you much. Crime and policing just isn't measureable in such crude terms (unfortunately).
     
  26. Mrs Magpie

    Mrs Magpie On a bit of break...

    Wheras the fact that Lambeth has largely united behind Paddick can be quantified, because of the way he has gone out of his way to honestly engage and listen to the community, we can actually notice the difference. I still am amazed that there was a large public meeting with a very wide cross section of the community attending, supporting a police officer in Brixton. That says more than statistics can.
     
  27. pooka

    pooka Can't Re Member

    Statistics

    Gary (and subsequent posts) raises an interesting point and there should always be room for Doubting Thomas's
    But...

    If the guy was appointed in Dec 2000, over what period should we make a judgement? Seems to me that even those who percieve a Messiah would give him time to get his feet under the table.

    The cannabis trial didn't start till mid-summer.

    More important, which direction are the numbers moving? Tried to download the monthly stats from the Met site, but it is soooo slow - will try again when I've got more time.


    But that aside, surely the point is that the guy seems to be setting about things in a productive way and should be judged on sustained outcomes? If he screws up - then fine,he should be out. What he shouldn't be is driven out by a grubby news paper which doesn't give a toss about Lambeth and is accountable to no one.
     
  28. VotePaddick

    VotePaddick Guest

    stats mean f**k all if you interpret them.
     
  29. VotePaddick

    VotePaddick Guest

    you don't choose to have a baby on stats.
    you don't get engaged cos of stats.
    you don't buy Creme deMenthe cos of stats
    you do it cos you like it,
    we like PB. end of story.
     
  30. jema

    jema New Member

    I am a bit of a newbie on the experiments being carried out on policing and I know enough about stats to know that by the time they have been miscollected, spun and headlined they can be utterly misleading and meaningless.... but I can't recall from what I have heard about Paddock him claiming that his methods were god given and due for automatic success. I do recall seeing words like trial and experiment :cool:

    To me it all seems like common sense, stop harrassing and criminalising people for trivia and concentrate on real crime and maybe you will enage the communitiy and have more success against real crime. But that is all it will ever be anyway, Paddock if allowed to continue might have a measurable impact on crime, but it can only ever be finite in a tough area.

    jema
     

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