Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
TAE said:
Yep, it's one of the reasons why I've always been opposed to ASBOs because it doesn't follow a judicial process but has a judicial outcome (punishment).
Judges liken terror laws to Nazi Germany
- Thread starter bigfish
- Start date
Yep, it's one of the reasons why I've always been opposed to ASBOs because it doesn't follow a judicial process but has a judicial outcome (punishment).
The Fabian Society, which is hardly the most secret or controversial of organisations has always been about creating elite socialism through democratic means, by using gradualism. Members have publicly praised Stalin, but abhorred the revolutionary and conspicuous nature of communism presumably because it is risky and the oppression is overt. The Fabian gradualist philosophy is exactly what we have taking place now, and I think the majority of the cabinet have been members.
The government bring in seemingly disparate and unrelated legislation to tackle the current moral panic or phantom threat. Almost every piece of legislation the New Labour government have brought in seems to have one thing in common; giving the state more control. No legislation, militarisation or technology can guarantee security, but it can guarantee the state more control. The Fabian trick is not to show their hand too soon by enforcing the legislation too soon, which allows them to pass more legislation to counter the still present problems they have contributed to creating. Perhaps the recent use of anti-terrorist legislation is a beating of the chest show of force to the protesters to discourage them, because the government now have nearly everything in place and don't want to public to see the level of disapproval.
I see ID cards as the real founding stone (or perhaps capstone) of totalitarianism because of how they will fundamentally alter society and turn all rights into privileges as granted by the state. They allow the state to effectively disappear someone by deleting their record or marking them as 'suspected terrorist' thus suspending all privileges and citizenship which are conditional on registering and owning a card. It is the ultimate caste society when someone's existence and worth can be defined by the state who now own their details and effeclively their very person. The governmemnt have suggested that purchases over about £200, for example, could require an ID card and biometric verification. They will also be required for employment, benefits, transport, travel, hiring a lawyer, healthcare, education, driving, public transport and just about anything other transaction or public behaviour.
The database would allow employment, medical, education, criminal, financial and many other records and history to be searched at the will of the authorities. It would also create a databank of various biometric information (which i'm sure will eventually include DNA) on every person, would allow a simple search of records to find a 'suspect'. Because it is a trusted technology, identifiers like DNA could also be planted and people convicted on that evidence alone.
I agree it started long before 2001 but has accelerated since then and become obvious to those who have studied the legislation passed since then. What worries me is that if a the Tories get in they might use the existing legislation to advance a different side to the agenda like finishing off the unions, privatising everything, cutting welfare etc. although this government are doing those already. What worries me is Cameron 'the moderniser' seems to have a lot of similarities to Blair and could make the two parties almost indistinguishable. The Civil Contingencies Act already allows imposing of curfews, and closing down of communication and transport networks amongst other things. CCTV could enforce the curfews and life could then be conducted over the internet and through bank accounts and ID cards, with special permission or privileges needed to travel outside. A hyped disease like bird flue would be a good pretext for such measures.
I see the only solution is to set up communities in which can function autonomously without no need for outside private or state assistance. We also need a genuinely independent media which can inform people what is really happening. It can't be that difficult to set up a local newsletter or radio station which talks about important local, national and international issues and can be distributed to a critically significant number of the population for free and on a regular basis. I think gun ownership would be a good idea too...
The government bring in seemingly disparate and unrelated legislation to tackle the current moral panic or phantom threat. Almost every piece of legislation the New Labour government have brought in seems to have one thing in common; giving the state more control. No legislation, militarisation or technology can guarantee security, but it can guarantee the state more control. The Fabian trick is not to show their hand too soon by enforcing the legislation too soon, which allows them to pass more legislation to counter the still present problems they have contributed to creating. Perhaps the recent use of anti-terrorist legislation is a beating of the chest show of force to the protesters to discourage them, because the government now have nearly everything in place and don't want to public to see the level of disapproval.
I see ID cards as the real founding stone (or perhaps capstone) of totalitarianism because of how they will fundamentally alter society and turn all rights into privileges as granted by the state. They allow the state to effectively disappear someone by deleting their record or marking them as 'suspected terrorist' thus suspending all privileges and citizenship which are conditional on registering and owning a card. It is the ultimate caste society when someone's existence and worth can be defined by the state who now own their details and effeclively their very person. The governmemnt have suggested that purchases over about £200, for example, could require an ID card and biometric verification. They will also be required for employment, benefits, transport, travel, hiring a lawyer, healthcare, education, driving, public transport and just about anything other transaction or public behaviour.
The database would allow employment, medical, education, criminal, financial and many other records and history to be searched at the will of the authorities. It would also create a databank of various biometric information (which i'm sure will eventually include DNA) on every person, would allow a simple search of records to find a 'suspect'. Because it is a trusted technology, identifiers like DNA could also be planted and people convicted on that evidence alone.
I agree it started long before 2001 but has accelerated since then and become obvious to those who have studied the legislation passed since then. What worries me is that if a the Tories get in they might use the existing legislation to advance a different side to the agenda like finishing off the unions, privatising everything, cutting welfare etc. although this government are doing those already. What worries me is Cameron 'the moderniser' seems to have a lot of similarities to Blair and could make the two parties almost indistinguishable. The Civil Contingencies Act already allows imposing of curfews, and closing down of communication and transport networks amongst other things. CCTV could enforce the curfews and life could then be conducted over the internet and through bank accounts and ID cards, with special permission or privileges needed to travel outside. A hyped disease like bird flue would be a good pretext for such measures.
I see the only solution is to set up communities in which can function autonomously without no need for outside private or state assistance. We also need a genuinely independent media which can inform people what is really happening. It can't be that difficult to set up a local newsletter or radio station which talks about important local, national and international issues and can be distributed to a critically significant number of the population for free and on a regular basis. I think gun ownership would be a good idea too...
jiggajagga
Judge_Mental
lastmanineurope said:
Another well thought out post but I have one question.
You say "We also need a genuinely independent media which can inform people what is really happening."
If we had one would it make any difference when the vast majority are already brainwashed and up to their necks in Mortgage debt?
What can they do if they see injustice in Britain in 2005?
Go on strike?...Cant afford that!
Write to their MP?.... What diff will that make?
The ONLY way to bring about change is to change through force as in Russia, USA, France and even England has done in the past to name but a few revolutions.
Can you see this happening in sleepy old braindead Britain?
jiggajagga said:
It would make a vast difference. The Mirror in the 60s and 70s?? The independent now (albeit with the lowest readership)??
They're only brainwashed BECAUSE of the media's emphatic failure to do the job required of them in a supposed DEMOCRACY.
Technology, celebrity obsession, and debt is holding the british public back from knowing what's going on. If they knew the half of it, blair would never ever have been voted back in, nor would the tories, the libs would have got power for the first time in fucking decades.
It is PRECISELY because of the media that the british public are not fully informed. If they were, they'd be more outspoken, they'd be more active.
Remember the tsunami? Britain was at the forefront of helping those who suffered. I mean, the british public.
That's coz the press informed them of this natural disaster.
But when it's a man-made disaster (ie the bastard politicians) then we never hear the half of it.
You can only do something with the knowledge you have.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
They also exist, in the main, to shore-up the establishment's position.In Bloom said:
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Maybe some form of "national unity goverment" merging all the current parties in to one "emergency government of national unity"? This would, effectively, be the creation of a one-party state.TAE said:
I believe a genuine independent media, even if just a newsletter would be a good start for informing and organising. The problem as you say is most people are too busy keeping up payments, supporting family and holding down a job that when they have free time they just want some escapism. There are so many discontent people that I believe we should all unite under one banner (rather than artificial racial, political or class constructs) and march on parliament and stay there. When protests are actually covered by the media they tend to be big like the first big anti-war protest.
Educating people as to how the financial system works would certainly help people stay out of debt to a system designed to live of their labour through interest, bankrupt them, and steal their property through repossessions. The banks (this works on an international scale through the World Bank also) create money out of nothing everytime they approve a loan, because they are only required to hold a small percentage of reserves in relation to what they lend out. The bank running the economy (BoE) also decides the interest rates and so can manipulate the economy to raise prices and create a false boom, which it can then manipulate to crash when the market is at its highest point and so repossess property and indebt people. It is understanding the economic system, who controls it, and why, is fundamental to understanding most of the problems we encounter today.
I don't think we need a physical revolution, although solidarity and the option of force would certainly help a movement be taken seriously. We need a revolution in the minds of the masses so they will stop functioning as cogs in a machine, and start to become conscious of their power and how they can make a difference. Supposedly democratic channels rarely make any real difference which is why I suggest organic community-based movements of reciprocal trade and services, co-operatives, alternative fuels, energy and health, bartering, homegrown produce and so on, so that before turning against the system people step outside of it so they are not dependent on it. This also works well because it is positive and leads by example. Therefore people will want to join once it has shown to be beneficial to them.
I think it could happen here. I think one advantage we have here is that the majority of people are extremely sceptical and rarely believe politicians like they tend to in countries like America. I believe once the beast has been awoken it will be very stubborn and the powers that be will panic.
Educating people as to how the financial system works would certainly help people stay out of debt to a system designed to live of their labour through interest, bankrupt them, and steal their property through repossessions. The banks (this works on an international scale through the World Bank also) create money out of nothing everytime they approve a loan, because they are only required to hold a small percentage of reserves in relation to what they lend out. The bank running the economy (BoE) also decides the interest rates and so can manipulate the economy to raise prices and create a false boom, which it can then manipulate to crash when the market is at its highest point and so repossess property and indebt people. It is understanding the economic system, who controls it, and why, is fundamental to understanding most of the problems we encounter today.
I don't think we need a physical revolution, although solidarity and the option of force would certainly help a movement be taken seriously. We need a revolution in the minds of the masses so they will stop functioning as cogs in a machine, and start to become conscious of their power and how they can make a difference. Supposedly democratic channels rarely make any real difference which is why I suggest organic community-based movements of reciprocal trade and services, co-operatives, alternative fuels, energy and health, bartering, homegrown produce and so on, so that before turning against the system people step outside of it so they are not dependent on it. This also works well because it is positive and leads by example. Therefore people will want to join once it has shown to be beneficial to them.
I think it could happen here. I think one advantage we have here is that the majority of people are extremely sceptical and rarely believe politicians like they tend to in countries like America. I believe once the beast has been awoken it will be very stubborn and the powers that be will panic.
lastmanineurope said:
Correct. We need a 'spiritual' revolution. But unfortunately that word has bad connotations in britian, but fuck it, it's the right word, and the right way forward.
It accounts for all the drawbacks you point out mate.
Politics and religion are not accidentally the defaults of our life: they allow the leaders to continually exploit the masses.
Spiritualism would subsume that default. I'm patiently waiting...
I think a level of spiritual awareness is important for (although not essential to) people transcending the physical selfish level of existence and to work for a greater good. Defeating tyranny is difficult without a belief in some sort of higher purpose or moral martyrdom. Ideologies like communism work on this concept also, by playing on the craving for significance by insignificant people to be part of something bigger than themselves and acheiving a level of power. Personally I belive in some sort of karmic or reincarnating cyclical energy which binds us all and keeps us living on. That's the only 'religion' I need. Anything else is just dividing us and fragmenting us.
jiggajagga
Judge_Mental
fela fan said:
But Fela, if the people wanted change wouldn't the Independant have the biggest readership?
Its no use knocking when there is no one in mate.
The ONLY time governments have brought about change is when they felt threatened by physical violence by the masses whether it be a full blown revolution or the Poll tax riots.
Question: If the 2 million who took to the streets about the upcoming war in Iraq had turned to violence and rushed parliament and Downing Street do you think Blair would still have had the balls to go to war?
A famous sociologist in the USA ( Adorno I think his name was) was asked the same question as to why the masses are not more political.
"Too busy living and dying and paying their way in life" was the answer he gave.
Sadly, I think he was right.
Its going to take a hell of a lot to get the British 'stiff upper lip' to quiver and begin to fight back I'm afraid Fela
jiggajagga
Judge_Mental
lastmanineurope said:
Your real name isn't Karl Marx is it mate?
jiggajagga said:A famous sociologist in the USA ( Adorno I think his name was) was asked the same question as to why the masses are not more political.
"Too busy living and dying and paying their way in life" was the answer he gave.
Sadly, I think he was right.
Its going to take a hell of a lot to get the British 'stiff upper lip' to quiver and begin to fight back I'm afraid Fela
Sadly too, i believe you're most likely right.
I'm going through a wee stage of despair about humanity at the mo, and it's in these times that all i can see is pure selfishness in individuals. I certainly don't just blame blair. He can only do what we give him permission to do.
But the mirror was the biggest selling paper in the 60s and 70s was it not? It was read by the very people we're discussing. If i'm right, then it seems the british public, as individuals, DID care about concepts such as justice and fairness for people around the globe, not just for themselves. And my point about the tsunami stands: the british gave in huge amounts and very admirably too.
My point was that: british people do care about human suffering, as evidenced by their reaction to the tsunami; and they did care about suffering caused by politics a couple of decades or so ago.
But then murdoch et al came on the scene, and it's all gone downhill since then...
lastmanineurope said:
Spiritualism is for the individual to empower themselves, thereby denying the effects of those seeking to abuse power by exploiting them. If the mass of people had spiritual awareness, they'd take responsibility for themselves, they'd be self-empowered, and those in power would not be able to con them.
In fact they'd be in prison right now.
Unfortunately the whole media, the whole of debate, of discussion, centres around a political default. With politics driving the nation, we will never ever achieve justice and fairness.
And with the connivance of the media, it is in fact going the opposite way. Britain is regressing into a police state.
Only with happy individuals can we have a happy society. Trying to fix society (as politicians and assorted other windbags do) means power and riches for a small elite, and the scraps for the mass. Only when we realise we have to fix the individuals will we get anywhere.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Depends how broad the definition of a "conspiraloon" is.rednblack said:
Something about babies and bathwaters springs to mind...
Bernie Gunther said:
Some tentative steps are being taken to flex those muscles.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1841452,00.html
Most powers are in place now. The technology is at a useable level. The judicial system is partially usurped.
Why wait?
j26 said:
"The move, confirmed last night by Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, means that extremists convicted under the new legislation could be jailed for seven years and suspects held without charge for up to three months."
So, so far to my knowledge, that is suspected terrorists, suspected animal rights activists, and suspected football hooligans that the police or mr clarke or mr blair can lock up for three months with no charge, and no dealings with courts. What other kinds of people will be added to the list? Have i missed any?
And people say britain is not turning into a police state? Such actions that clarke and blair talk about are EXACTLY actions taken in police states. So is state execution - and blair's been very active in that department in his tenure of office.
Britain is getting more and more like thailand every year.
It's just fucking unbelievable what is not discussed in the media in britain. Look, here's that man clarke again:
Speaking to the joint Lords and Commons human rights committee, he said: “I certainly think that animal rights terrorism is something that has to be attacked. Those who argue that committing violent acts of terror to promote the cause of animal rights and who justify it by referring to it would be covered by this legislation.”
Firstly, coz he thinks that, then that's what's gonna be eh? Just like thaksin in thailand.
Secondly this is the man talking who belongs to a government who are mass-terrorists themselves. He wants to throw animal activists into prison, but doesn't want to go to prison himself for the crimes against humans and humanity that his government have been perpetrating.
Why is this link not talked about? Why is it not part of the public discourse?? Why do we allow terrorists to dictate how our country should be run, and yet not see them for what they are: terrorists.
Speaking to the joint Lords and Commons human rights committee, he said: “I certainly think that animal rights terrorism is something that has to be attacked. Those who argue that committing violent acts of terror to promote the cause of animal rights and who justify it by referring to it would be covered by this legislation.”
Firstly, coz he thinks that, then that's what's gonna be eh? Just like thaksin in thailand.
Secondly this is the man talking who belongs to a government who are mass-terrorists themselves. He wants to throw animal activists into prison, but doesn't want to go to prison himself for the crimes against humans and humanity that his government have been perpetrating.
Why is this link not talked about? Why is it not part of the public discourse?? Why do we allow terrorists to dictate how our country should be run, and yet not see them for what they are: terrorists.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/25102005/325/govt-defeated-racial-hatred-law.html
Fuck you Blair get it right up you and your pals.
Fuck you Blair get it right up you and your pals.
These 'Judges' should be all given a reverse ASBO. Forced to live in depressed areas alongside real people for a couple of months. Maybe that would change their tune... Blair is right, the Constitution says Parliament is supreme. You're supposed to learn that in Law School. Obviously these do-gooders didn't study as much as they should have. 
jiggajagga
Judge_Mental
fela fan said:
Like I said Fela, its no use knocking when there is no one in mate!
I've given up!
One day there will be a wailing and gnashing of teeth the like of which has not been seen in this country before. I just hope that I'm not around when it comes about!
There was once a book burning around 1900 and an Author said " Those that start by burning books end up burning people"
It was Germany and he was Jewish.
(Sighs)
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