Judas was innocent!

[iROBOT]

Stop the Press! : Contradiction in the Bible!

My wife was brought up with hardcore chrisitian parents - she rebelled early on: one of the awkward questions she asked was about Judas:

Christians have it that Jesus' death was all part of (god's) plan - it was a test and a sign. If so, then how could Judas have been a traitor? Surely he was "part of the plan"? She's happy about this new parchment thing, feeling she was right all along!

This is the flaw in all religions that regard God as Omnipotent. If this was played out in a secular sense then Judas would be the victim of entrapment.

Very interesting programme last night on National Geographic, shame the Gnostics lost out, they seem to be much more metaphysical and poetic then the dirge that’s in the Bible at the moment.

 

[inflatable jesus]

Nobody's said this yet and it seems barely worth pointing out, but my first impression is that A) Judas had absolutely nothing to do with this manuscript and B) It's probably less 'true' than the standard Judas and Jesus story.

It all just seems like an attempt at incorporating characters from popular religion into the gnostic worldview. Which was kind of their schtick as I understand it.

 

[Badger Kitten]

It was written in the 4th century, the Gospels were c. A.D 70 and Q even earlier. So yes, clearly it is grinding an axe and written with the knowledge of the Gospel version to put forth a point of view; whether you think the POV of an obscure 4th century sect trumps the earlier material conclusively or whether you recognise that both are fascinatingly of their time and should be viewed in that context, or whether you think the Gospels are holy writ and the other an abominable heresy rather depends on where you stand on the literature/faith continum.

 

[iROBOT]

It was written in the 4th century, the Gospels were c. A.D 70 and Q even earlier. So yes, clearly it is grinding an axe and written with the knowledge of the Gospel version to put forth a point of view; whether you think the POV of an obscure 4th century sect trumps the earlier material conclusively or whether you recognise that both are fascinatingly of their time and should be viewed in that context, or whether you think the Gospels are holy writ and the other an abominable heresy rather depends on where you stand on the literature/faith continum.

They can only be regarded as holy writ if the Bible was written/narrated by Jesus himself (as the Koran claims).

As they were passed down as aural tradition there's no way that one can say one way or the other which of the Gospels is a true representation of Jesus’ time on this Earth. As was mentioned in the programme, the first gospels representation is very light on condemning Judas whilst the last puts the blame for Jesus’ betrayal firmly in his hands.

This (the programme) supposes is primarily an attempt by the Christian community to distance themselves from the Jewish community that was (at the time) violently resisting The Roman Empire for its occupation of Israel. Therefore it’s quite clear that politics played a very important part in the formation of the Bible as we know it now.

I was very struck by how beautiful some of the passages in Judas’s gospel were. Can anybody explain how the Gnostic tradition started? Was it based on anything that Jesus might have said to give this movement within the Christian Cannon any credence?

It (the Gnostic tradition) seems very much more open and less dogmatic then what Christianity eventually became.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Some Gnosticism links

Wiki

& here

 

[iROBOT]

Thanks Badger Kitten

I'll print it out...give me something to do over Easter.

 

[Jorum]

There is an old science fiction story from the 70's set in the far far future - the main character is part of the powerful and galaxy-spanning "Church of St Judas"

The idea in the book is that as Jesus's death was required to achive redemption of mortals, Judas was only doing his part in the larger scheme.
In fact he is considered a self-sacrificing martyr as he was prepared to accept betraying Jesus, losing his friends, and damnation in order to do what was necessary.

An interesting book. Can't remember the rest apart from one of the cardinals is a big frog-like alien.

Anyway nice to the Church has caught up with fiction after 30 years
(apart from the frog-alien thing)

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Was it based on anything that Jesus might have said to give this movement within the Christian Cannon any credence?

It (the Gnostic tradition) seems very much more open and less dogmatic then what Christianity eventually became.

IIRC correctly Jesus was from a sect called Essenes, I'll have to re-visit them but they lived a life without priests, etc. i,e, a more direct connection.

 

[iROBOT]

That's very interesting. I've come across a website (not having heard of them before) and the Essenes sect certainly seems to be a type of proto-Christianity.

The Essenes considered themselves to be a separate people--not because of external signs like skin color, hair color, etc., but because of the illumination of their inner life and their knowledge of the hidden mysteries of nature unknown to other men. They considered themselves to be also a group of people at the center of all peoples--because everyone could become part of it, as soon as they had successfully passed the selective tests.
They thought, and rightly so, that they were the heirs of God's sons and daughters of old, the heirs to their great ancient civilization. They possessed their advanced knowledge and worked assiduously in secret for the triumph of the light over the darkness of the human mind.

Also this passage is very interesting.

They were not limited to a single religion, but studied all of them in order to extract the great scientific principles. They considered each religion to be a different stage of a single revelation. They accorded great importance to the teachings of the ancient Chaldeans, of Zoroaster, of Hermes Trismegiste, to the secret instructions of Moses and of one of the founding Masters of their order who had transmitted techniques similar to those of Buddhism, as well as to the revelation of Enoch.
They possessed a living science of all of these revelations.
Thus, they knew how to communicate with angelic beings and had solved the question of the origin of evil on the earth.

source http://www.essenespirit.com/who.html

This certainly seems to back up Judas' Gospel which seems (on the little that I've seen) slighty Pagan non coporial nature of existance. Also found out from this site that the Dead Sea Scrolls were written by the Essenes.

Thanks RubberBuccaneer for the lead, yet more good reading over the break

 

[Badger Kitten]

Another good article on Gnosticism , from Beliefnet, a very good website

 

[Badger Kitten]

...and an article on the Gnostic Gospel of Judas

 

[lostexpectation]

pope wrath - "judas was greedy liar"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1754385,00.html

i thought the pope might dig the whole Jesus knew exactly what was happening thing?

 

[laptop]

Libération investigates how an art dealer and lawyer from Switzerland look set to make $3m out of the document - despite holding it illegally.

Echoes of Foucault's Penulum in there too...

 

[fishfingerer]

Peter was the real traitor and coward was he not, and a power hungry twat to boot.