Joint Statement Against the Israeli Airstrikes on the Gaza Strip...

[durruti02]

"Global players"? If there are any others apart from the US and UK, then please list them.

Aye. you've swallowed the Euston Manifesto, all right.

I hope that you're not going to suggest that Palestinians are all Muslim. But I see that you're using the word "Jew" as if it means the same thing as "Israeli". It is not. But then, I suspect, that you may have a problem with the word "Zionist" too.

global players .. iran and saud and previously Russia and it's allies ( who ironically supplied Israel with the weapons it won the 1948 war with .. not sure what Russia and china are doing now but we can be sure they are involved

re Euston ( for you i will do anything) .. ok yes right wing bollox masquarading in 'democratic clothing' .. e.g. i disagree with them on the US, which yes has an interesting democratic history, but is currently perhaps the most dangerous imperialist country in the world; on terrorism .. which i totally oppose but regard state terrorism as 99% of all 'terrorism'; and think it idiotic to think that the Iraq war had anything to do with democracy .. ok?

yes i do have a problem with the word zionism .. or rather zionism in general .. it is a failed ultra nationalist ideology ( that came out of oppression and pogram ) that has caused no end of damage like all nationalisms

 

[nino_savatte]

global players .. iran and saud and previously Russia and it's allies ( who ironically supplied Israel with the weapons it won the 1948 war with .. not sure what Russia and china are doing now but we can be sure they are involved

Eh? So who does Saudi Arabia supply arms to in this conflict? How about Russia and China?

The two principal players are the US and UK for obvious reasons. Israel relies heavily on US financial and materiel* support. You've also forgotten the number of resolutions vetoed by the US on behalf of Israel.


*this word refers to the objects used by the military.

 

[durruti02]

You know what I mean, you're just playing thick (no, you're like that normally )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euston_Manifesto

You like Harry's Place too, don't you?

oh nino nino nino ..

i do NOT 'like' HP .. i think it is USEFUL!

and performs regularly a task the left itself should, by exposing reaction in places the left prefer's to ignore it

 

[nino_savatte]

oh nino nino nino ..

i do NOT 'like' HP .. i think it is USEFUL!

and performs regularly a task the left itself should, by exposing reaction in places the left prefer's to ignore it

Oh, durutti, durutti, durutti, why do you have to be such a tool?

Why do you think HP is "useful"? Because they avoid such things as erudition and the materialism of history?

You're beginning to sound more and more like a Eustonite these days...maybe you don't know what you are and you're just spewing out whatever bile happens to correspond to your ideas.

 

[durruti02]

Eh? So who does Saudi Arabia supply arms to in this conflict? How about Russia and China?

The two principal players are the US and UK for obvious reasons. Israel relies heavily on US financial and materiel* support. You've also forgotten the number of resolutions vetoed by the US on behalf of Israel.


*this word refers to the objects used by the military.

nino nino nino .. i agree with you! i totally agree Israel relies on the US UK .. and the arab states used to rely on Russia and now iran and saud, and that china and iran are involved .. my point is simply .. you have to look outside of palestine to understand the situation and to solve the situation ...from both sides

 

[durruti02]

Oh, durutti, durutti, durutti, why do you have to be such a tool?

Why do you think HP is "useful"? Because they avoid such things as erudition and the materialism of history?

You're beginning to sound more and more like a Eustonite these days...maybe you don't know what you are and you're just spewing out whatever bile happens to correspond to your ideas.

nino nino nino! i have just said to you i almost TOTALLY disagree with the Euston manifesto! it is a rightwing front .. no question

BUT why do you not allow that undoubted right wingers like HP will provide information that the left wing prefers to ignore?

 

[nino_savatte]

re Euston ( for you i will do anything) .. ok yes right wing bollox masquarading in 'democratic clothing' .. e.g. i disagree with them on the US, which yes has an interesting democratic history, but is currently perhaps the most dangerous imperialist country in the world; on terrorism .. which i totally oppose but regard state terrorism as 99% of all 'terrorism'; and think it idiotic to think that the Iraq war had anything to do with democracy .. ok?

The US has an "interesting democratic history"? Could you please expand on this? The Euston Manifesto is more than just "right wing bollox masquerading in democratic clothing", it deliberately ignores history to arrive at a place that is most beneficial for capitalism to flourish.

yes i do have a problem with the word zionism .. or rather zionism in general .. it is a failed ultra nationalist ideology ( that came out of oppression and pogram ) that has caused no end of damage like all nationalisms

I'm not sure that you're saying here. So why did you use the word "Jew" instead of "Israeli"?

 

[nino_savatte]

nino nino nino! i have just said to you i almost TOTALLY disagree with the Euston manifesto! it is a rightwing front .. no question

BUT why do you not allow that undoubted right wingers like HP will provide information that the left wing prefers to ignore?

What do you mean by "almost totally disagree"? You have regurgitated some of the EM's highlights in your posts on this thread.

 

[durruti02]

The US has an "interesting democratic history"? Could you please expand on this?

The Euston Manifesto is more than just "right wing bollox masquerading in democratic clothing", it deliberately ignores history to arrive at a place that is most beneficial for capitalism to flourish.

I'm not sure that you're saying here. So why did you use the word "Jew" instead of "Israeli"?

1) the american 'federation/state was based in a revolutionary republicanism ( that still has a message today .. and is of course ignored by the US rulers .. but there are still elements of democracy e.g. electing the school board and sheriff that far outweigh what we have here .. of course sadly theh US population generally do not understand how much of their liberties are based on 'imperialism'

2)nino i AGREE WITH YOU ON EUSTON!

3)yes i did use the word jews and palestinians .. of all creeds .. i was saying they have all BEEN USED!!

 

[durruti02]

What do you mean by "almost totally disagree"? You have regurgitated some of the EM's highlights in your posts on this thread.

what are referring to??

 

[nino_savatte]

1) the american 'federation/state was based in a revolutionary republicanism ( that still has a message today .. and is of course ignored by the US rulers .. but there are still elements of democracy e.g. electing the school board and sheriff that far outweigh what we have here .. of course sadly theh US population generally do not understand how much of their liberties are based on 'imperialism'

2)nino i AGREE WITH YOU ON EUSTON!

3)yes i did use the word jews and palestinians .. of all creeds .. i was saying they have all BEEN USED!!

You're a proper dissembler, aren't you?

If you "agree" with me on Euston, then why are you repeating the same dogma that appears in their manifesto vis a vis the Middle East?

On your third point, you're are being disingenuous: you used the word "Jews" to refer to Israelis. They are not the same: there are many Jews who are not Israeli.

 

[nino_savatte]

what are referring to??

Ah, pretending that you didn't understand. A classic durutti response.

 

[durruti02]

You're a proper dissembler, aren't you?

If you "agree" with me on Euston, then why are you repeating the same dogma that appears in their manifesto vis a vis the Middle East?

On your third point, you're are being disingenuous: you used the word "Jews" to refer to Israelis. They are not the same: there are many Jews who are not Israeli.

this is what EM say about this

7) For a two-state solution.
We recognize the right of both the Israeli and the Palestinian peoples to self-determination within the framework of a two-state solution. There can be no reasonable resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that subordinates or eliminates the legitimate rights and interests of one of the sides to the dispute.

i totally disagree with a two state solution .. it is impossibility with the issue of the 'return' and disputed 'holy places' .. so i do not see your point atall

no i did not refer to jews as israel .. i have made that quite clear ..

please for clarity if you have a problem with what i say make exactly what you disagree with explicit ..

 

[nino_savatte]

no i did not refer to jews as israel .. i have made that quite clear ..

Yes, you did and no, didn't make yourself "quite clear".

 

[durruti02]

Yes, you did and no, didn't make yourself "quite clear".

nino this was my post

"yes i accept that totally .. my point re palestine is that both zionism and hamas/Hizbollah have grown out of oppression and that BOTH the jews and palestinians are being USED by global players in a geopolitical resource war .. yes we need to highlight israels wrongs but we must understand the context and ALSO that actually HERE in the west it is our system that controls this and that probably the solution lies in US here changing power "

what in here confuses 'israel' with ' the jews'?

 

[nino_savatte]

nino this was my post

"yes i accept that totally .. my point re palestine is that both zionism and hamas/Hizbollah have grown out of oppression and that BOTH the jews and palestinians are being USED by global players in a geopolitical resource war .. yes we need to highlight israels wrongs but we must understand the context and ALSO that actually HERE in the west it is our system that controls this and that probably the solution lies in US here changing power "

what in here confuses 'israel' with ' the jews'?

This does

BOTH the jews and palestinians are being USED by global players

So Palestinians cannot be Jewish? They were before 1948. In fact, the indigenous Palestinian Jews were often regarded as second class citizens by the newly arrived immigrants. There is no mention of Israelis in your post, you say "Jews". There is a difference.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino:"Win gate helped Jews carry out this or that against native populations...": OR maybe it could be phrased as such, the Jews who WERE enlisted into the British Army for the greater good of all (recognising Hitler for what he was) carried out allied missions against axis aligned Arab irregulars, and unfiroemed soldiers.

Do you dare to defend the Axis now Nino?

You are right that Arabs did not coopt the label "Palestinian" until 48. Indeed my own Dad has it on his birth certificate courtesy of your colonialist countrymen.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino:"Win gate helped Jews carry out this or that against native populations...": OR maybe it could be phrased as such, the Jews who WERE enlisted into the British Army for the greater good of all (recognising Hitler for what he was) carried out allied missions against axis aligned Arab irregulars, and unfiroemed soldiers.

Do you dare to defend the Axis now Nino?

You are right that Arabs did not coopt the label "Palestinian" until 48. Indeed my own Dad has it on his birth certificate courtesy of your colonialist countrymen.

What's this about me "defending the Axis"? What an interesting imagination you have. I don't suppose you've heard of Godwin's Law, because you're a quarter-step away from it.

So those Palestinians who were forced from their homes under Wingate's watchful eye were working for the Axis? Aye, and Mickey Mouse is the King of Togo.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So those Palestinians who were forced from their homes under Wingate's watchful eye were working for the Axis? Aye, and Mickey Mouse is the King of Togo.

Now you're getting it.
And don't forget that all Palestinians at that time were Nazis too. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was acquainted with Hitler, and resided in Germany, so the Pals must have been*.

*Even though we know that one of the reasons the GM was there was because he'd been virtually forced into exile by his own people.

 

[tangentlama]

I read that Hitler courted Arab Nationalist as he was wanting Nazis to access to Middle Eastern oil (Iraq, Saudi) and used the exiled Jerusalem Mufti Husseini in attempt to override the Islamic resistance to Nazism and the trump the clerical fatawa against siding with Nazism. I heard Hitler and his generals feared the Islamic resistance to Nazism both in Europe and in Middle East.

 

[durruti02]

This does


So Palestinians cannot be Jewish? They were before 1948. In fact, the indigenous Palestinian Jews were often regarded as second class citizens by the newly arrived immigrants. There is no mention of Israelis in your post, you say "Jews". There is a difference.

nino maybe i should have said ' all palestinians .. jews druze xtian and muslim etc' .. ok BUT my point actually was palestinians IN palestine of all types and jews .. everywhere ..

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: "Forced from homes...": Not all, most probably were, as claimed, Axis agents. Are you ignorant of al Husseini Clan? Ahhhh, Panda does mention it, bravo.

Tangent: Why do you think Husseini was "exiled in Berlin?" He was wned and dined and yes, for Arab oil in the end but it was a very real allianxce that would have fnished what 1920 began.

 

[tangentlama]

i totally disagree with a two state solution .. it is impossibility with the issue of the 'return' and disputed 'holy places' .. so i do not see your point atall

Let us go point by point

1) Two states is what both peoples want.
2) Holy Places are not disputed - they are shared sacred space. The problems arise when one religion seeks to dominate the narrative, or revise along narrow nationalistic lines, or seeks to museum-ify the space to favour one religious narrative only.
3) The issue of return is not only of Jewish return and Judaisation of once-Arab villages/village land, or Christian and Muslim Arab return. The issue is also
a) the status and treatment of religious Jews outside of Israel by other cultures - e.g. in America (the worst place in the Western world for anti-Jewish/antisemitic prejudices, especially against unassimilated Jews)
b) the status and treatment of Christian and Muslim Palestinian diasporah - both in Palestine refugee ghettos and also of the status and rights of the larger exiled populace living in other states, e.g. Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, etc. Also in USA, where antisemitism is now clearly extended to Arabs and by some strange narrow-defined default against religious Muslims. Basically, antisemitism has morphed over the last 60 years to include both Jew and Muslim and also Arab Christian - this was ever the root of the problem and no amount of ingathering or resettlement or peace in Israel-Palestine can solve the antisemitic rhetoric against Jew and Arab that is still rife in the Western World.

 

[tangentlama]

Nino: "Forced from homes...": Not all, most probably were, as claimed, Axis agents. Are you ignorant of al Husseini Clan? Ahhhh, Panda does mention it, bravo.

Tangent: Why do you think Husseini was "exiled in Berlin?" He was wned and dined and yes, for Arab oil in the end but it was a very real allianxce that would have fnished what 1920 began.

I am against using Husseini as a rod to beat the modern Palestinian back with.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am against using Husseini as a rod to beat the modern Palestinian back with.

Especially as Hajj Amin al-Huseyni, as I mentioned earlier, wasn't representative of Palestinian sentiment, having to all intents and purposes been forced into exile through his involvement in terrorism, something he wasn't supported in by the majority of Palestinians, despite the frequent unsupported claims otherwise.
It's easy, though, to transpose al-Huseyni's Judaeophobia onto the entirety of the Muslim population of the mandate, in order to further cast the Palestinians as "the enemy", rather than address the rather complex realities.

 

[Spion]

1) Two states is what both peoples want.

How do you know that? I find it hard to believe, tbh

 

[tangentlama]

How do you know that? I find it hard to believe, tbh

No-one has made a poll that asks both Israeli and Palestinian if they are willing to live in one state together, with equal rights, and under the same law applied equally to all.

Unless you know of one?

 

[Spion]

Why do you think Husseini was "exiled in Berlin?"

For the same reason Ghandhi praised Hitler and some Indians sided with the Japanese - ie, they hated their oppression by the British Empire and sought help from its rival. And it's not as if the British Empire and its representatives in Palestine weren't anti-jewish either . . . but then Zionism's founders had plenty of complaints about jews too

 

[Spion]

No-one has made a poll that asks both Israeli and Palestinian if they are willing to live in one state together, with equal rights, and under the same law applied equally to all.

Unless you know of one?

I don't. Equally there's no poll to back up your claim is there?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

. . . but then Zionism's founders had plenty of complaints about jews too

Very true. From my reading it was partially distaste for the image of the bookish Yeshiva student and the cowering victim of pogroms and also a distaste for the - as they saw it effete - intellectual life that led the early Zionists to disregard the idea of having Yiddish (at the time spoken more widely amongst European Jews) instead of Hebrew as the main language of the new re established State of Israel.

So many people who were doctors and lawyers and academics abandoned their work in these areas in pre Nazi Europe to go back to their ancestral lands and break their bodies and in some cases their minds on farms and other economic enterprises accross the land of Israel before the creation of the state itself.

It would help to remember that there is not one Zionism but many. Zionism isn't just religious settler bigots in Hebron but is also generations of brave men and women who gave their all to build a nation.

FWIW where I stand is Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state but it must live in peace with its neighbours and compensate financially those Palestinians and their descendants who were affected by the communal and religious convulsions that occurred at the creation of the state of Israel.