John McDonnell to speak in Hackney

[Donna Ferentes]

If people, in a public arena, are arguing for more leftwing politics, against the free market and neoconservatism, then this is pretty plainly a good thing from a leftwing point of view. It's only a bad thing in the sectarian/anarchist view whereby everything that's not the correct path is a diversion from same designed to prevent us from seeing the truth.

 

[belboid]

you just don't get it do you? How did the SWP, say, try and control the LP? Or even the TUC? You're simply wrong.

On the main topic, the McDonnel campaign will (hopefully) put a bit of a challenge to the Brown coronation, it will put various issues (like the right to take solidarity action) on the agenda. Thats a good thing, and so I will support his attempt to stand, and will vote for him (as an affiliated union member) if he gets on the ballot. Of course he'll get stuffed, and may well ot even get on the ballot, but even that will be something of a result as it will indicate the depths to which the party has shrunk despite the appallngly right-wing leadership.

 

[In Bloom]

If people, in a public arena, are arguing for more leftwing politics, against the free market and neoconservatism, then this is pretty plainly a good thing from a leftwing point of view.<pointless ad hom snipped out>

But the point is when they get into power, they are under huge pressures to do the exact opposite of what they've said they'll do, which leads to such ideas being discredited.

It's mainly a tactical thing for me, leaving aside arguments about representation versus a culture of resistance.

 

[belboid]

a link ?? dont be silly

it came from a GS at TUC
i also heard about it when i attended a meeting about redwatch with the tuc at the home office

so it could all be a bunch of right-wingers finding a way to 'get' dirty lefty Wrack then?

 

[belboid]

But the point is when they get into power, they are under huge pressures to do the exact opposite of what they've said they'll do, which leads to such ideas being discredited.

It's mainly a tactical thing for me, leaving aside arguments about representation versus a culture of resistance.

but you shouldnt leave those arguments aside, a camapign can feed into such a culture. No one thinks the LP will be led my McDonnel, or even that he wouldn't move sharply to the right if he won. That isn't actually the point.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

You don't understand what "ad hominem" is, do you IB?

As for "representation versus a culture of resistance" - that's precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about, opposing the thing you want to other ideas. Not just saying "my idea is better" which is fine, but considering the other idea negative.

 

[mashedmaryland]

so it could all be a bunch of right-wingers finding a way to 'get' dirty lefty Wrack then?

if you really really really think Matt Wreck is left wing then you need a wake up call mate

Seriously just cos there names appear on a few platforms dont be thinking there left wing seriously why was Matt so willing to jump into bed with the right when he became GS

 

[Donna Ferentes]

"He's not as leftwing as my slogans so he's not leftwing."

 

[belboid]

if you really really really think Matt Wreck is left wing then you need a wake up call mate

Seriously just cos there names appear on a few platforms dont be thinking there left wing seriously why was Matt so willing to jump into bed with the right when he became GS

examples? or just more whispers?

 

[SuburbanCasual]

John McDonnell and his pathetic rapidly aging delusional band of pitiful supporters can fuck off, what a fucking waste of time - don't you lefty numpties get it? Most people don't give a fuck, we long since gave up on the Labour party. What was the turnout at the last election?

This is yet another case where the vast majority of working class people are far in advance of the shattered remnants of the left.

 

[mashedmaryland]

hundreds of examples mate

ok where to start bring in his bunch of cronies into jobs bullying the staff various cuts in the education budget which went through the nec with the support of the right dtopping contributions to certain international campaigns

industrialy there are plenty of examples

its like people saying the rmt is a good union and bob crow is left winger

 

[Donna Ferentes]

You're right, SC, because they're doing....


.....er.......

 

[belboid]

John McDonnell and his pathetic rapidly aging delusional band of pitiful supporters can fuck off, what a fucking waste of time - don't you lefty numpties get it? Most people don't give a fuck, we long since gave up on the Labour party. What was the turnout at the last election?

This is yet another case where the vast majority of working class people are far in advance of the shattered remnants of the left.

you aure he isnt another one of your phantom secret state members infiltrating the LP???

 

[belboid]

its like people saying the rmt is a good union and bob crow is left winger

uhuh. is there, or has there ever been a 'left-winger' as a GS in your opinon then?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Would you like to borrow my tagline?

 

[belboid]

I rather borrow yor whiskey....

 

[mashedmaryland]

Well Bob was ok for his first two years when he got his orders straight from Mick Rix

plenty of decent GS who actually campaign to improve there members lives but Bob is just simply a sabre rattler

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Sounds like one of those archaic posts in the royal houshold.

Lord Poursuivant to the Royal Bedchamber and Rattler of the King's Sabre.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Sounds like one of those archaicposts in the royal houshold.

Lord Poursuivant to the Royal Bedchamber and Rattler of the King's Sabre.

 

[In Bloom]

but you shouldnt leave those arguments aside, a camapign can feed into such a culture. No one thinks the LP will be led my McDonnel, or even that he wouldn't move sharply to the right if he won. That isn't actually the point.

For me, that is exactly the point. It's all just a continuation of this idea that if we get the right people into positions of power, then everything will be okay.

Besides anything else, nobody trusts the Labour Party any more, what makes you think they'll listen to somebody making a grab for the position of Labour leader?

 

[In Bloom]

You don't understand what "ad hominem" is, do you IB?

You're constantly plugging away with attacking me because I'm an anarchist. Tather than attacking the anarchist argument against representaion, you merely attack it as an anarchist argument, as if that somehow makes it wrong by default. If it's not ad hominem, it's some kind of fallacy.

As for "representation versus a culture of resistance" - that's precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about, opposing the thing you want to other ideas. Not just saying "my idea is better" which is fine, but considering the other idea negative.

The two ideas are opposed by their very nature. A culture of resistance means recognising those in power as outside and against us, which defies the whole logic of representation. You can't have it both ways.

 

[belboid]

For me, that is exactly the point. It's all just a continuation of this idea that if we get the right people into positions of power, then everything will be okay.

Besides anything else, nobody trusts the Labour Party any more, what makes you think they'll listen to somebody making a grab for the position of Labour leader?

Nobody trusts Labour any more? Blatantly nonsense. Ever decreasing numbers for sure, but that is very different to 'nobody', and yet more different to the umber who might be more trusting of Blair/Brown etc weren't leaders.

The two ideas are opposed by their very nature. A culture of resistance means recognising those in power as outside and against us, which defies the whole logic of representation. You can't have it both ways.

Again, quite wrong. A culture of resistance could well include electing representatives, preferably under some kind of rapid recall, as a representative of that culture.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

You're constantly plugging away with attacking me because I'm an anarchist. Tather than attacking the anarchist argument against representaion, you merely attack it as an anarchist argument, as if that somehow makes it wrong by default.

No I'm not: I have, very obviously, consistently attacked it for its negativity, for its insistence on dismissing other means of political activity.

 

[Wilf]

I would have thought that for those involved in electoral politics (which I'm not) this should be a both political and strategic issue:

Politically, is the Labour Party now too tainted (Iraq, neo-liberal policies etc.) for anybody to go near with a bargepole? Would have thought those things alone would stop most people with any kind of left of centre views going within a mile of the party.

Strategically, if you want to build some kind of broad left opposition is that ever going to happen within the Labour Party? Is it not too late for that now - with the almost total disappearance of the left from that party, centralisation of decision making etc. Certainly the McDonnell campaign doesn't give you much confidence that 12 or 13 years of new labour, mandelsonisation can be overturned. Might even be more chance of seeking to turn Respect into a broad based coalition - getting it back to what the socialist alliance might have been (though that too would be a mighty task - gonna be very difficult to shift the swp-Muslim axis). After that your best thing to do is probably seek to build genuinely broad based campaigns around public services, climate change etc. That kind of thing does at least offer a way to be 'positive'.

 

[durruti02]

Never forgive, never forget will be your epitaph.

BarryB

well it is not long ago this year in fact ..

and yes it would be wrong to forget what happenned .. if you acknowledged you as a socialist made a mistake i obviously would forgive

the issue remains you actively campaigned in favour of a blairite yuppy and smeared your w/c opponents .. without your and pipes intervetion it is likely that hackney would have had a clear pro w/c party/councillors in the council ..

 

[SuburbanCasual]

Why would a trot scumbag want pro working class councillors though?

 

[BarryB]

well it is not long ago this year in fact ..

and yes it would be wrong to forget what happenned .. if you acknowledged you as a socialist made a mistake i obviously would forgive

the issue remains you actively campaigned in favour of a blairite yuppy and smeared your w/c opponents .. without your and pipes intervetion it is likely that hackney would have had a clear pro w/c party/councillors in the council ..

As ive said before Jules Pipe only made a few brief visits to the ward (as he did to other marginal wards) so if you want a scapegoat for your defeat blame me. But as ive also said before you cant separate Haggerston from the rest of Hackney. Except for one seat lost in Clissold Ward Labour retained every one of its 2002 seats. No mean feat when Labour were losing heavily elsewhere. Why on earth should Haggerston be so different from the rest of Hackney? You may answer that it was only in Haggerston that Hackney Independent stood and that you were pro working class. But what kind of pro working class group allows one of its election candidates to openly advocate voting Tory and Lib Dem in Hackney wards outside Haggerston? I suggest you put your own house in order before criticising anyone else.

My guess is that if I hadnt stood Labour would still have won the seat albeit with a smaller majority. But all this is speculation. Instead of keeping raking up the May election why dont you discuss what is going on in Hackney in the here and now? Anyway HI are welcome to attend the 18 October meeting and put their views forward.

BarryB

 

[durruti02]

But what kind of pro working class group allows one of its election candidates to openly advocate voting Tory and Lib Dem in Hackney wards outside Haggerston?
BarryB

because hackney labour are such a bunch of middle class yuppy pro developer pro business blairite scum .. er do you really not see this??. hence many w/c activists supportted hettie and sadly many supportted Boff ..

it is you who need to look closer to home about why ordinary people end up supportting either tories or libdems or say vote for anybody rather than new labour ..

explain to me what labour have done that is pro working class in hackney .. what any other council would NOT do ??. i do not deny that the tories and lib dems would be worse in many ways but in haggerston there was a clear choice .. between a pro w/c party ( including a candidate who was running an anti council corruption campaign who you obsess upon as somehow being pro tory ) and the pro business anti w/c candidate of Johnny Macshann ..

so you, who claims to be a socialist, campaigned on behalf of the millbank yuppy and against the w/c leftwing .. what the fuck! who on earth do you justify that??

i guess you justify it by the end justifies the means .. that by this pact with the devil the lucky people of hackney have a socialist cllr!!

how else do you justify such action?? .. or are you going to tell us johnny and jules are actually lefties in disguise!!

 

[BarryB]

because hackney labour are such a bunch of middle class yuppy pro developer pro business blairite scum .. er do you really not see this??. hence many w/c activists supportted hettie and sadly many supportted Boff ..

it is you who need to look closer to home about why ordinary people end up supportting either tories or libdems or say vote for anybody rather than new labour ..

explain to me what labour have done that is pro working class in hackney .. what any other council would NOT do ??. i do not deny that the tories and lib dems would be worse in many ways but in haggerston there was a clear choice .. between a pro w/c party ( including a candidate who was running an anti council corruption campaign who you obsess upon as somehow being pro tory ) and the pro business anti w/c candidate of Johnny Macshann ..

so you, who claims to be a socialist, campaigned on behalf of the millbank yuppy and against the w/c leftwing .. what the fuck! who on earth do you justify that??

i guess you justify it by the end justifies the means .. that by this pact with the devil the lucky people of hackney have a socialist cllr!!

how else do you justify such action?? .. or are you going to tell us johnny and jules are actually lefties in disguise!!

Why dont you discuss what is going on in Hackney today rather than defending a person who was pro Tory? But as you insist on going back to Mays election let me say that people in Haggerston had a clear choice between the Labour Party and the Tories, Lib Dems and Hackney Independent. The people of Haggerston made a clear choice. And it wasant for you.

By the way whatever happened to the anti Labour Party alliance that Peter Sutton was trying to form after the election. Down the drain I suspect.

Congratulations on opposing the tower block proposed for just off Columbia Road in Tower Hamlets. You had the same policy as Hackney Council. What was Arthur Shuters view of the proposal?

Incidentially which working class activists supported Peters and Boff? Or is this just a figment of your imagination?

BarryB

 

[netbob]

john is one of the most boring speakers around

I saw him talk a couple of years ago in batersea and was quite impressed. seemed like a nice guy. If he pulls his finger out he might be able to do a bit of a howard dean.