John McDonnell says he has half the MPs he needs

[nightbreed]

I am disillusioned by New Labour, and I am a member of a trade union which is affiliated to the Labour Party. I will not be supporting the candidacy of John McDonnell.

Just so we are clear

So what do you offer trade unionists seeing that they are not going to Respect or the CNWP?

 

[Guineveretoo]

Fuck me,
I am glad because you're in a minority then.
Bollocks ; because the trade unionists I have seen at J McD meetings havent been contaminated by the shit coming from some of the far left. They are genuine class fighters just interested in their own workplaces where their members are facing daily crap from their employers.
To date NO political alternative has been offered them. Now there is.

If John McD doesnt get the nominations, well there is something to build on.

We can't have been at the same meetings. The ones I am talking about were ones which were not called by his supporters, but were on a variety of subjects, like the future of the trade union movement, or the war in Iraq, or even just a celebratory occasion for Tony Benn. I heard the same speech in each case - he came across as being completely obsessed with one thing and one thing alone - the leadership of the Labour party.

I really don't know what you mean about being contaminated by the far left. I thought the far left supported him?

What makes you so sure that I am in a minority? It's not the impression I get, from the people I know who are in the trade union and labour world.

I agree that there is a shortage of a political alternative to New Labour. John McDonnell isn't it.

 

[belboid]

So, everyone who purports to support John McDonnell is a member of an affiliated trade union?

You don't answer the other question about why they want to have anything to do with the Labour Party?

I'm a member of an affiliated union, I think Labour is terminally fucked (from a pro-working class pov), but I will strongly urge any members of my union to support JM's campaign - should they get the chance to do so.

It's about dispelling illusions, imo. If he manages to get on the ballot & I argue with my members that they just shouldn't bother, then he (and other leftists still in the labour party) would be able to say - but what if people like you had argued for him..... If I support his candidature and he still gets roundly thrashed (I'd be very surprised if he got more than 20% of any vote) then the argument that Labour is no longer a place where socialist concerns are actually on the agenda would be strengthened.

Working-class people do still have illusions in Labour, to a much lesser extent than previously, but they are still there. I want to show in the strongest possible way tht the party is lost to any kind of w-c cause, and that is best done by arguing for support for the only vaguely socialist candidate. If he gets thrashed, it will indicate more strongly that the party is a simple right-wing bastion only interested in supporting capitalsim.

There is also the very vague chance that I am utterly wrong, and Labour members want a 'real' socialist, in which case i would have no (okay, little) problem in holding my hands up and saying 'fair cop guv'

 

[Guineveretoo]

So what do you offer trade unionists seeing that they are not going to Respect or the CNWP?

Personally, I would like to break all ties with the Labour Party, because I am disgusted with the way that they have treated the trade unions and their own members.

It's not up to me to offer trade unionists anything - we merely have to continue the battle against whoever the protagonists are. If John McD became the leader, he would simply end up being one of the enemy, like the oh so many former trade unionists who are now in the Cabinet

 

[belboid]

I heard the same speech in each case - he came across as being completely obsessed with one thing and one thing alone - the leadership of the Labour party.

a fair criticism in one way, but not that surprising coming from someone....standing for leader of the labour party!

 

[treelover]

Are you for real, i an not naive and know when i am being sold a pup, and that is categorically not happening with John. I repeat he is stimulating debate and is drawing people back into left politics, i have seen it happen in my local John4leader group, and as far as people have faith in 'leaders' they have it in John..

btw, Belboid, that cynicism and opportunism is why the far left is simply not trusted by the wider 'movement'

Guinevertoo said
An awful lot of people who John McD claims have attended meetings in support of him have actually attended meetings for many other reasons, only for him to attempt to hijack said meeting by giving the same old tired speech about how we need him to lead the Labour Party. He does this regardless of the topic under discussion, or the reason he has been invited to speak. I can't even remember how many times I have heard it, and I have never supported him and never will. I may just have to walk out another time, so he doesn't count me as one of his supporters!

He is a one trick pony and his one trick isn't very good.

It would be a disaster if he became leader of the Labour Party, for everyone.

IMHO once more, of course

 

[nightbreed]

I think I'll stand with you Belboid.
I agree with that.

 

[Guineveretoo]

a fair criticism in one way, but not that surprising coming from someone....standing for leader of the labour party!

Except that he wasn't at the time of the first 3 occasions when I saw him make that speech, and it was inappropriate and, frankly, embarrassing.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Are you for real, i an not naive and know when i am being sold a pup, and that is categorically not happening with John. I repeat he is stimulating debate and is drawing people back into left politics, i have seen it happen in my local John4leader group, and as far as people have faith in 'leaders' they have it in John..

btw, Belboid, that cynicism and opportunism is why the far left is simply not trusted by the wider 'movement'

Yes, I am for real

I clearly have a completely different view of this guy from yours, and have had completely different experiences of hearing him, and watching the response of the audience. He only got a smattering of polite applause on one occasion, as everyone just looked at their feet and wondered who on earth he thought he was! I think he is deluded.

IMHO

 

[JoePolitix]

Back from the tomb?

I'm a member of an affiliated union, I think Labour is terminally fucked (from a pro-working class pov), but I will strongly urge any members of my union to support JM's campaign - should they get the chance to do so.

It's about dispelling illusions, imo. If he manages to get on the ballot & I argue with my members that they just shouldn't bother, then he (and other leftists still in the labour party) would be able to say - but what if people like you had argued for him..... If I support his candidature and he still gets roundly thrashed (I'd be very surprised if he got more than 20% of any vote) then the argument that Labour is no longer a place where socialist concerns are actually on the agenda would be strengthened.

Working-class people do still have illusions in Labour, to a much lesser extent than previously, but they are still there. I want to show in the strongest possible way tht the party is lost to any kind of w-c cause, and that is best done by arguing for support for the only vaguely socialist candidate. If he gets thrashed, it will indicate more strongly that the party is a simple right-wing bastion only interested in supporting capitalsim.

 

[treelover]

I think i will repeat my comment for effect on the JP repost,

Belboid, that cynicism and opportunism in your lenist post about how basically 'the end justifies the means' is why the far left is simply not trusted by the wider 'movement'

 

[treelover]

There is an opportunity to hear john mcdonnell talk on a variety of issues one the left usually ignoresoverty in the UK, click the link to hear his ideas

http://www.john4leader.org.uk/audio-video.html

 

[belboid]

I think i will repeat my comment for effect on the JP repost,

Belboid, that cynicism and opportunism in your lenist post about how basically 'the end justifies the means' is why the far left is simply not trusted by the wider 'movement'

bullshit, it may be why you dont, but dont call yourself 'the wider movement'. Plus it is not opportunistic. It's called being honest. As someone who isnt a member of labour, should I igonre the campaign or rejoin and pretend its the best thing since sliced bread/ Either of those would be opportunistic. You're just desperate for an alternative, any alternative that you're convincng yourself that this is it. Not for the first time either. And your assesments of the sheff meetings have been so ott, its almost laughable, sadly.

I hope he does well, but I doubt he will. Sorry, how appalingly cynical and opportunistic of me.

 

[belboid]

btw - if you want to see something really cynical and opportunistic, you need look no fursther than the people running the local john4leader campaign - and a number of the other j4l campaigns around the country.

Who are they? The AWL - people so comitted to the cause that they are running candidates against labour in hackney and (I think) elsewhere. Quite how come they're allowed in the labour party is beyond me.

 

[Streathamite]

Personally, I would like to break all ties with the Labour Party, because I am disgusted with the way that they have treated the trade unions and their own members.

It's not up to me to offer trade unionists anything - we merely have to continue the battle against whoever the protagonists are. If John McD became the leader, he would simply end up being one of the enemy, like the oh so many former trade unionists who are now in the Cabinet

thoroughly well said, and the same conclusion i reached a few years back

 

[glenquagmire]

btw - if you want to see something really cynical and opportunistic, you need look no fursther than the people running the local john4leader campaign - and a number of the other j4l campaigns around the country.

Who are they? The AWL - people so comitted to the cause that they are running candidates against labour in hackney and (I think) elsewhere. Quite how come they're allowed in the labour party is beyond me.

That confused me for a bit too. I think the AWL must have changed their policy to an entryist one in the last year or so to allow working within the Labour Party. LP rules clearly prohibit any member of a party which stands candidates against Labour from joining and the AWL did that last May in Hackney at least (I think I might even have voted for one of them in despair...)

But to say they are running all the J4L campaigns is just not true. Some are involved but the majority of people organising are not uber-Trots.

 

[Streathamite]

There is an opportunity to hear john mcdonnell talk on a variety of issues one the left usually ignoresoverty in the UK, click the link to hear his ideas

http://www.john4leader.org.uk/audio-video.html

since WHEN has the 'left' - however you define it - ignored poverty? daft claim

 

[belboid]

That confused me for a bit too. I think the AWL must have changed their policy to an entryist one in the last year or so to allow working within the Labour Party. LP rules clearly prohibit any member of a party which stands candidates against Labour from joining and the AWL did that last May in Hackney at least (I think I might even have voted for one of them in despair...)

But to say they are running all the J4L campaigns is just not true. Some are involved but the majority of people organising are not uber-Trots.

I didnt say all, I said the local one, and a number of others (being deliberately vague there as it is probably only another half dozen or so!)

I think Janine is standing again in Hackney, tho I might be wrong about that.

 

[treelover]

Er, lots of time, the 'left' (however defined) has totally ignored the issue of the welfare reform bill which will see millions of disabled people lose benefits, forced into unsuitable work and possibly pushed in having dangerous medical inteventions. Challenging the New Deal: which is basically expoitation and co-ercion. Pensioner fuel poverty and welfare, any more?, too fucking right they ignore poverty issues.

since WHEN has the 'left' - however you define it - ignored poverty? daft claim

 

[poster342002]

Er, lots of time, the 'left' (however defined) has totally ignored the issue of the welfare reform bill which will see millions of disabled people lose benefits, forced into unsuitable work and possibly pushed in having dangerous medical inteventions. Challenging the New Deal: which is basically expoitation and co-ercion. Pensioner fuel poverty and welfare, any more?, too fucking right they ignore poverty issues.

Don't exactly see them up in arms over those disgusting, stasi-like "anti benfit-fraud" campaigns that are redolent of communist Eastern Europe, either.

"COMRADES! SHOP YOUR NEIGHBOUR IF YOU SUSPECT HE'S DEFRAUDING THE PEOPLE'S STATE!"

 

[Streathamite]

Er, lots of time, the 'left' (however defined) has totally ignored the issue of the welfare reform bill which will see millions of disabled people lose benefits, forced into unsuitable work and possibly pushed in having dangerous medical inteventions. Challenging the New Deal: which is basically expoitation and co-ercion. Pensioner fuel poverty and welfare, any more?, too fucking right they ignore poverty issues.

so i presume you have some hard evidence to back this up, rather than just words, and your opinion? because speaking as a 'left' sorta person myself I've done a bit myself on ALL of those causes, and I know shitloads of people - TUers, trot sectlings, anarkids, even LPers - who have also put in considerable time and effort on ALL of these, and your perception comes from a separate world to mine.
just cos you didn't notice all that action doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[Streathamite]

This has been answered before.
Every member of a LP affiliated union has a vote in the LP leadership elections.
Not bad for a Capitalist party!!

no, chalk that one up as a major victory for capitalism, considering that any genuinely socialist candidate doesn't stand a chance

 

[treelover]

In my experience which recently has been considerable, no, there has been little evidence, particulary on the WRB, for such engaged involvement from the trot left, the unions, the trades councils, the wider progressive left, anarkids, even greens, etc I think you may be in denial, not of your activities, as going by your posts, you are fully aware of inequalities and injustices in this area, but of the wider left. To me this wider left is, when it is active, obsessed with 'the war' imperialism, the culture wars' and race issues. Why not give details on all these activities that the wider left does in the above area of poverty and welfare, i think you will struggle to fill a list!.l


Theres no ego involved here, i use a pseudonym in my campaigning, I just see how people are getting shafted and the lack of support they are receiving from a 'movement' however defined, which should be on their side

To me its the 21st century 'shame of the U.k left' which will I think return to haunt them...

again, three issues they have ignored:

The 'left' (however defined) has totally ignored the issue of the welfare reform bill which will see millions of disabled people lose benefits, forced into unsuitable work and possibly pushed in having dangerous medical interventions. Challenging the New Deal: which is basically exploitation and coercion. Pensioner fuel poverty and welfare.

so i presume you have some hard evidence to back this up, rather than just words, and your opinion? because speaking as a 'left' sorta person myself I've done a bit myself on ALL of those causes, and I know shitloads of people - TUers, trot sectlings, anarkids, even LPers - who have also put in considerable time and effort on ALL of these, and your perception comes from a separate world to mine.
just cos you didn't notice all that action doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[Streathamite]

In my experience which recently has been considerable, no, there has been little evidence, particualry on the WRB, for such engaged involvement from the trot left, the unions, the trades councils, the wider progressive left, anarkids, even greens, etc

I think you may be in denial, not of your activities, which going by your posts, you are fully aware of inequalities and injustices in this area, but of the wider left. To me this wider left is when it is active is obsessed with 'the war' refugees, the culture wars' and race issues. Why not give details on all these activities that the wider left does in the above area of poverty and welfare, i think you will struggle to fill a list!.l


Theres no ego involved here, i use a psedonym in my campaigning, I just see how people are getting shafted and the lack of support they are receiving from a 'movement' however defined, which should be on tieir side

To me its the 21st century 'shame of the U.k left' which will I think return to haunt them...

oh c'mon, all I'm asking for is substantiating 3rd party factual evidence, rather than anecdote and opinion. those things are all well and good in themselves, but not conclusive enough. it's not an unreasonable request, as I'm sure you'd agree, so have you that evidence or haven't you?

 

[nino_savatte]

You wasn't around in the 80s? So you were born in the 90s? how old are you?

Your use of grammar, here, is poor. It is "you weren't around in the 80's" not "you wasn't"...Christ on a bike!

 

[poster342002]

oh c'mon, all I'm asking for is substantiating 3rd party factual evidence, rather than anecdote and opinion. those things are all well and good in themselves, but not conclusive enough. it's not an unreasonable request, as I'm sure you'd agree, so have you that evidence or haven't you?

Perhaps he has the most compelling evidence of all: personal experience?

 

[Streathamite]

Perhaps he has the most compelling evidence of all: personal experience?

so how can I or anyone else be sure its' not just 100% bullshit?
I mean, it's a bit "trust me" and it directly contradicts all MY activist experience, which itself is hardly negligible
e2a; generally i find treelover to be an honest, trustworthy poster, but I'm finding that hard to believe for EXACTLY the reason you gave for me to believe it.

 

[BarryB]

I didnt say all, I said the local one, and a number of others (being deliberately vague there as it is probably only another half dozen or so!)

I think Janine is standing again in Hackney, tho I might be wrong about that.

Which election could that be for? As far as Hackney council elections are concerned other than by elections there wont be any until 2010.

I suspect Janine would like to be back in the LP but having stood against Labour last May she has no chance of being readmiited for several years. After all her names not Ken Livingstone.

BarryB

 

[glenquagmire]

Is that the honourable councillor for Haggerston?

 

[k84blogs]

There's a relatively interesting article/interview with John McDonnell campaign co-orindators & supporters at the newstatesman this week at

http://www.newstatesman.com/200702010002

go over there and tell them theyre trots