John McDonnell admits the game is up

[nightbreed]

dennisr. Sorry to be weird.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/unions/story/0,,2182949,00.html

I found this article in the Guardian.It very much reflects the position I take. While I want to stay as a LP member I want to be totally involved in struggles outside of it.
Why is that wrong?

All you want is for me to join with you in forming an electoral alternative. I dont think we are at that stage yet.

As for leaving the votes to the hard right? Back in 2003 the BNP stood 6 candidates in the local elections in Southampton. The Socialist Alliance who also stood 6 received less votes in total. I think the results can be checked. Google it. Its not because voters are reactionary its because the left arent seen as credible. To become credible the left has to do work elsewhere such as in the Trade Unions and in the communities.

We are a million miles from presenting a left of Labour alternative at elections, at the moment. The minute Labour Left would in no way contribute to increasing this size. I can confidently predict that even if the 20 or so Left MPs left Labour tomorrow and stood against New Labour they would get crap 5th/6th place votes. This will happen to Wareing in Liverpool, you'll see.

While this situation is occuring, the question to me is what we do in the meantime?

In your reply to tbaldwin you say (I dont want to be associated with him or his ideas!!)

'let alone any idea of organising those masses as apposed to doing nowt'

Does 'nowt' include taking part in broad based Trade Union and/or community campaigns against the neo liberal government?
John McDonnells article does not reflect the politics of doing 'nowt'.

 

[dennisr]

dennisr. Sorry to be weird.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/unions/story/0,,2182949,00.html

I found this article in the Guardian.It very much reflects the position I take. While I want to stay as a LP member I want to be totally involved in struggles outside of it.
Why is that wrong?

Thanks for the link - I will have a read of it.

You can rest assured I am not in any way putting you in the same category as baldwin - the comments aimed at him are aimed only at his own very special views. Its a problem on these boards at the moment that everyone has to have a secondary disagreement going off on the 'baldwin tangent' that has little to do with what was being raised in the first place

I was in the Labour Party myself for 10+ years and would have been the first to point to the lack of credibility of some of the so-called far left. (left in Liverpool along with the rest of the membership)

Yes, you have a point that in some instances elections have show the hard right having more credibility or at the least easier to see as a 'serious' alternative. But that is not a constant. Even where the right has defeated the left the importance of putting a left alternative to Labour can be raised.

In Stoke for instance where with 3 sitting councillors the BNP defeated the SP in one ward (not helped by a 3-way left split) - but the already established BNP vote in that ward did not go up (unlike the rest of Stoke). Unfortunately the 'lesser of evils' approach does not wash with voters either - Labour has also lost credibility especially where it is the sitting party implimenting cuts etc, the very reason for the (even if uneven...) swing to the hard right.

I wouldn't want to overemphesise some crude arguement that the hard right are the major problem (actually, I think we are actually quite lucky in the UK in that respect). I've got to ask - at what point is the qualitative change in what is New Labour mean you say 'enough is enough' - and decide you are forced to begin re-building that independent left credibility? (ie even without the sort of mass movement that we would both agree would be the main growth for a left alternative). At what point do you decide you have to make a mark that other folk can potentially gather around at some point in the future?

And the stand against Labour can take things the other way. Like I say the patterns are not consistent. Yes, a few well established councillors in the likes of Coventry and Lewisham are not enough - but they are a marker. They make an alternative less invisible. They are a start in the other direction and they have been able to achieve in a way they could not tied to new labour's apron strings. Beyond that electoral side of things, the SP has many members in important positions in the Trade Union movement (20-30 in Union NEC positions for instance) - which is where real 'credibility' can be re-built from the left and from where new labour can be threatened.

I think the joint initiatives between labour lefts and those outside are excellent - they are already happening in effect in local campaigns I am involved in over housing and nhs cuts where a few decent labour party members are working closely with folk like me whatever our differences. Re-building trust and cooperation between genuine lefts (regardless of which organisation) is also important (and something that has been held back by the methods used by some fools who consider themselves part of the hard left).

 

[dennisr]

While I want to stay as a LP member I want to be totally involved in struggles outside of it.
Why is that wrong?

One final thing mate - do you not get that feeling that you are a bit like a soldier that stands there refusing to give up your position at any costs even though completely surrounded, the battle tactically lost, and even though the rest of the army has retreated somewhere else - that it might not have been better to retreat with the rest of them to a stronger position elsewhere (I hope that makes sense)

 

[butchersapron]

GREATER LONDON
LABOUR REPRESENTATION COMMITTEE
Chair: John McDonnell MP
Vice Chairs: Maria Exall (CWU NEC), Christine Shawcroft (LP NEC)
Secretary: Simeon Andrews
Treasurer: Graham Bash
www.l-r-c.org.uk


PLANNING MEETING
Greater London LRC
Saturday 13th October 1pm
Lucas Arms, 245a Gray’s Inn Road, London, WC1X 8QZ
(5 mins walk from King’s Cross Station)

For directions, see: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&h...734&spn=0.01116,0.021157&z=15&iwloc=addr&om=1

Dear Comrade,

I am writing to let you know that Greater London LRC will be holding a planning meeting on Saturday 13th October at 1 pm in the Lucas Arms, 245a Gray’s Inn Road (5 mins walk from King’s Cross St Pancas).

The meeting is open to all members of the Labour party or of no party at all. The main aim of the LRC is to fight for socialist policies in the labour movement and wider society. This meeting will discuss aims and objectives, setting up local groups across London, campaigns and other issues.

We hope that you will be keen to get involved and help build a vibrant network of socialists and trade unionists. It’s a great opportunity to meet other socialists in your area and create a new dynamic, campaigning force in our movement.

The meeting will be chaired by Gary Heather (CWU Exec / Chair of Islington North CLP / Chair of Islington LRC).

If you have any questions or want to add items to the agenda, please email Owen Jones at [email protected].

To subscribe to the Greater London LRC email group, please send an email to [email protected].

Best wishes,
Owen Jones
LRC National Committee

No spam please. esp not from Owen Jones.

 

[poster342002]

To become credible the left has to do work elsewhere such as in the Trade Unions and in the communities.

The communities I can agree with - the Trade Union movement is a busted flush with pitifully few members and negligable impact.

 

[Streathamite]

Realism Jezza?
Most people want to see a better fairer world, less not more inequality.

except precisely the opposite has happened under Labour; the gap between rich and poor has widened, which is a truly awful thing to happen under any party which has even the slightest claims to social justice.

But most people are every bit as suspicious of political and community activists as they are of political parties.

oh really? you've spoken to 'most people' have you? I'd say that's a candidate for sweeping generalisation of the year, myself. I don't claim to know what most people - in this broad, diverse nation of 60million - are like, and I don't think you can eithewr

I have listened to so much bullshit over the years about "grass roots" "Class based" etc etfucking cetra......
It ends up with the same types of people slowly but surely falling out with each other...And ending with virtually no political impact.

that's the UK far left, and the fact that the trot left is so f-ing hopeless does NOT, in and of itself, deliver a get outta jail card to an organisation which has betrayed its' grassroots (what's left of them; 50% leaving in 10 years tells its' own story) and its' class completely, and has now finally deserted them to suck yuppie cock

LP with all its faults....I look at the minimum wage, the minimum income guarantee, the educational maintenance allowance etc etc etc.....And think well its not all bad..... [/QUOTE]
nope, and thatcher gave us the anglo-irish deal, lancaster house etc, and a few other things; yes OF COURSE nu labour has given some good things, just nowhere near enough, not even to justify me devoting 5 minutes of my time to go and vote for it.
and its;' once-proud mission of social justice is as dead as dead can

 

[dennisr]

The communities I can agree with - the Trade Union movement is a busted flush with pitifully few members and negligable impact.

thats a serious comment?

oh well the CWU members shouldn't bother then... ?

The Classroom Assistants in Northern ireland should just go home and give up... ?

The Care Workers on Strike in Bolton should just fold... ?

The Remploy Workers should just retire... ?

The local government workers nationally should just cave in... ?

And UnISON members in Kirklees who just stopped the closure of two nurseries - it was all an illusion... ?

(thats just this week in the real world - it may surprise you but just because it does not appear in the bosses press that does not mean nowt is happening - mainly becasue folk don't have a choice but to stand up and defend themselves)

 

[Streathamite]

While I want to stay as a LP member I want to be totally involved in struggles outside of it.
Why is that wrong?

.

as tbaldwin answered this question for you last time, I'll ask it again - why? What on earth can you hope to achieve from within the LP, and what makes you think you can achieve those ends?

All you want is for me to join with you in forming an electoral alternative. I dont think we are at that stage yet.

OK....what in the history of the LP in the past 30 years gives you faith in the progressive potential of the LP?

As for leaving the votes to the hard right? Back in 2003 the BNP stood 6 candidates in the local elections in Southampton. The Socialist Alliance who also stood 6 received less votes in total. I think the results can be checked. Google it. Its not because voters are reactionary its because the left arent seen as credible. To become credible the left has to do work elsewhere such as in the Trade Unions and in the communities.

but when leftist have stood on a basis of a self-c onfident, unashamedly socialist manifesto AND good grassroots organisation, they win; the SSP before the 'swingers' disaster, the Militant results in Liverpool and Coventry....
e2a; for clartirty, leftist above should read 'leftists' or 'left groups'

 

[poster342002]

thats a serious comment?

oh well the CWU members shouldn't bother then... ?

The Classroom Assistants in Northern ireland should just go home and give up... ?

The Care Workers on Strike in Bolton should just fold... ?

The Remploy Workers should just retire... ?

The local government workers nationally should just cave in... ?

And UnISON members in Kirklees who just stopped the closure of two nurseries - it was all an illusion... ?

(thats just this week in the real world - it may surprise you but just because it does not appear in the bosses press that does not mean nowt is happening - mainly becasue folk don't have a choice but to stand up and defend themselves)

Those are the exceptions, and not the norms.

 

[dennisr]

but when leftist have stood on a basis of a self-c onfident, unashamedly socialist manifesto AND good grassroots organisation, they win; the SSP before the 'swingers' disaster, the Militant results in Liverpool and Coventry....

.. and Lewisham. Both Coventry and Lewisham being folk re-elected after being tested by those electors. Not huge - but not insignificent either

 

[Streathamite]

The communities I can agree with - the Trade Union movement is a busted flush with pitifully few members and negligable impact.

7 million is 'pitifully few'? besides which, the underlying class structure is there, and that is what counts most

 

[dennisr]

Those are the exceptions, and not the norms.

fair enough, well, fair enough if you can simply dismiss 1000's and 1000's of balwin's 'masses' time and time again - after all all all been done a thousand times before whats the feckin point, ehh?


(which begs the question why do you waste so much time repeating how pointless it all is - i've asked this before and you never answer me)

 

[dennisr]

7 million is 'pitifully few'?

yep, feckin hopeless, complete waste of time

(me and my illusions have been shattered by posterX - don't know about you Jezza?)

 

[Streathamite]

absolutely splintered into a thousand tiny pieces!

 

[poster342002]

7 million is 'pitifully few'? besides which, the underlying class structure is there, and that is what counts most

7 Million out of a workforce of, what? And nigh-on zero presence in the private sector?

We need to seriously look at where we are rather than where we'd rather be...

 

[poster342002]

which begs the question why do you waste so much time repeating how pointless it all is - i've asked this before and you never answer me

That's a rather simplistic reduction of what I say, but basically the "point" is to try and get people to wake up and smell the coffee so we can begin to work on a solution. No problem in the history of the world was ever solved by pretending it didn't exist.

 

[dennisr]

That's a rather simplistic reduction of what I say, but basically the "point" is to try and get people to wake up and smell the coffee so we can begin to work on a solution. No problem in the history of the world was ever solved by pretending it didn't exist.

Or by pretending that -"it's all been done a thousand times before and therefore can be dismissed".

Solutions require learning from history - not repeating the same mistakes - formally, at least we would agree on that. That does not mean dismissing historical examples.

Yes, unpresidented changes in the nature of the workforce in the UK (although you cannot seperate the UKs economy from that of the rest of the world). Yes, low level private sector (and pretty - relatively - low level of public as well) organisation. Does that mean you can wrote off the 7 million still organised in the UK? (because that is what i would call "simplistic reduction"). Does that mean you write off the millions who are not organised at present and talk about some mythical 'grass roots' as a replacement for real analysis of how changes in the nature of the working class in the UK effects ho folk organise resistence to attacks? No

In France the public and private sector is, in theory, even less organised and always has been (for specific reasons) - does that mean the French working class have not been able to move decisively to turn government/boss class attacks - of course not. In Sweden there are high levels of organisation - does that mean they simply stop the attacks their government/boss class are using against them - of course not.

You are a cheeky sod for daring to call my views simplistic - given yours dismissal of millions

 

[Streathamite]

7 Million out of a workforce of, what? And nigh-on zero presence in the private sector?

out of some 26-28 million. way down from what it was, but still a lot. And the most inevitable stat of a post-manufacturing, post-smokestack economy is falling TU rolls.

We need to seriously look at where we are rather than where we'd rather be...

who here is saying otherwise?

 

[Streathamite]

That's a rather simplistic reduction of what I say, but basically the "point" is to try and get people to wake up and smell the coffee so we can begin to work on a solution. No problem in the history of the world was ever solved by pretending it didn't exist.

I honestly don't think ANY leftist is pretending we ain't up shit street...

 

[The Black Hand]

I honestlty don't think ANY leftist is pretending we ain't up shit street...

Well said Red jezza.

 

[butchersapron]

And you'll see him friday!

 

[The Black Hand]

And you'll see him friday!

Are you coming?

 

[butchersapron]

Are you coming?

I don't go scab shops

Unforuntunately, i'll have to wait till bookfair - do reseve me two if you can please.

 

[The Black Hand]

I don't go scab shops

Unforuntunately, i'll have to wait till bookfair - do reseve me two if you can please.

They will be on our stall - come and say hello

I look at it as supporting a radical outlet, one of the few left.

 

[tbaldwin]

You show me how your 'politics' for what they are represent anything that is 'socialism from below' or 'unothodox left' (or unorthodox anything) - genuinely - and i'll eat my hat.

let alone any idea of organising those masses as apposed to doing nowt

i live in the real world mate - i listen to and work with plenty of people who agree/disagree, are sympathetic or are very critical. my reading of you is you project your inability to listen onto those you are ignoring under the guise of disagreeing with

Its genuine Socialism from Below.
Because it puts faith in people in the here and now. Not sometime in the future when they have all been happily re-educated.

 

[Streathamite]

.. and Lewisham.

christ I forgot my own back yard!

 

[Maidmarian]

What on earth can you hope to achieve from within the LP, and what makes you think you can achieve those ends?

The honest answer to the first question is : "power"

& the second : experience.

 

[Streathamite]

& the second : experience.

I trust this is ironic, given that Labour's 'achievements' list only looks good if you start in may 45 and stop in, ooh, 1951...

 

[dennisr]

Its genuine Socialism from Below.
Because it puts faith in people in the here and now. Not sometime in the future when they have all been happily re-educated.

you are not even trying to fool yourself with that "answer" are you?

 

[Maidmarian]

I trust this is ironic,

Good call !