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John McDonnell admits the game is up

Louis MacNeice said:
Isn't a twin track strategy suggested by the article; both inside and outside the Labour Party? While such a situation would not be tenable in the long-term (if it was effective then the Labour leadership would expell the 'guilty parties'), it might make possible/encourage some potentially useful joint working at community, organisational, campaign level (no prizes for guessing where I think the priority should be placed).

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

That's one possible interpretation, but i think it's one that's unlikely given that he argues that it's no longer possible to use the parties structures to achieve anything - of course, the argument could go that you stay in thre party, don't try and use those now worthless structures but directly get involved with community campaigns or something similiar - but then why stay in the labour party at all, given these things can be carried on without that membership, and the possibility that your membership might actually hinder full involvement - esp in local politics where people tend to know each other and suspicions can easily arise.

Maybe i'm reading too much into it, but it seems pretty clear, to me at any rate, that the implication is that the left (whatever he means by that) needs to get out of the party as the game is up. The other possibility is too close to the sort of argument whereby the left goes outside the party (whilst staying members of course), builds up influence, then comes back in and reclaims their supposed birthright. Which to me is just a longer version of the same strategy that's failed already.
 
People won't leave the Labour because they've been in it a long long time and they find it very hard to imagine life outside it; this might be especially true when they look at the alternatives on offer (or more likely the lack of them). In this situation the twin track approach could make leaving Labour - or at least initially accepting that their is the possibility of life outside Labour -less of a wrench.

If it is being promoted as a way of ultimately ressurecting a re-claim Labour project then I think that is doomed to failure.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
 
Zeppo said:
Things may have to get worse in the UK for the left to get its shit together but another 5 years of Brown new labour may do the trick. Something has got to give.
Not necessarily. Most likely all that'll happen after Brown is that we'll get 10 years of David Milliband.
 
Louis MacNeice said:
People won't leave the Labour because they've been in it a long long time and they find it very hard to imagine life outside it; this might be especially true when they look at the alternatives on offer (or more likely the lack of them). In this situation the twin track approach could make leaving Labour - or at least initially accepting that their is the possibility of life outside Labour -less of a wrench.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
ermm....given that I was a member for 14 years, how come all that don't apply to me, or to the 200000+ who've left since the mid-90s?

e2a; yes, many people are like that, but they've STILL lost c.40% of their members inside a decade
 
Louis MacNeice said:
People won't leave the Labour because they've been in it a long long time and they find it very hard to imagine life outside it; this might be especially true when they look at the alternatives on offer (or more likely the lack of them). In this situation the twin track approach could make leaving Labour - or at least initially accepting that their is the possibility of life outside Labour -less of a wrench.

If it is being promoted as a way of ultimately ressurecting a re-claim Labour project then I think that is doomed to failure.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I think this is true as it goes - i know a lot of people from my time in the party whose social life is entirely built around the party - the poltics of the party no longer comes into it - or at least not that often, and like anything you've been involved in for a long time, especially something that you may have felt very passioanately about when you first get involved it does become part of you.

One question springs to mind - are those who decide to get involved in this twin track approach going to be prepared to point the finger at labour, esp in situations in which the tories or another local rival is doing well. Of course for some this approach may well be the thing that finally leads to them leaving for whatever reason (and effective alternative appearing, being woken up to the effects of their parties policies etc) but i'm afraid i'm going to be a bit cynical about this, if they've not left by now i'm not convinced that they ever will - not if they'd decided to stick with the party despite what it has done since 1997. And the other danger is these initiatives acting instead as a path into a revitalised party...but that's just throwing the kitchen sink at it really :D

I may well be 100% wrong on this - i hope that i am and that i hope there is some movement around joint activities like this. I've posted enough about the potential pitfalls and the negative side of a few things - how about someone post something positive :p
 
Being a LP member has never stopped me criticising or campaigning against bad Labour policies inside and outside the party.
 
I think this is true as it goes - i know a lot of people from my time in the party whose social life is entirely built around the party - the poltics of the party no longer comes into it - or at least not that often, and like anything you've been involved in for a long time, especially something that you may have felt very passioanately about when you first get involved it does become part of you.

This is very true. And it's a big problem with political organisations full stop. There are many people in political organisations, even tiny far left groups, who stay involved because of the social life and nostalgic attachments rather than because of the politics. What do you think can be done about that out of interest?

PS Why do people refer to political organisations as "the party" I always find it slightly strange........
 
nightbreed said:
Butchers, OK so what you are saying is that the Labour left , who have ignored the non labour left , outside in their various workers parties, for the last 15 years, should just leave the LP.
And do what?

Respect is shit.

CNWP is not credible.

SSP/Solidarity in Scotland is a mess.

Are you saying the Labour left should just leave and not bother?

While people like John McDonnell continue to hold their course , they can create the publicity needed to attract workers to the ideas of socialism.It isnt just about publicity. Its about working with other socialist to create an alternative that doesnt have to be one that involves standing aimlessly at every election conjuring up pathetic votes.
I will continue to work for McDonnell and his ideas, but not neccessarily the party and the ideas that New Labour represent. Are you asking me to dump that and support a weird organisation like Respect with a complete wanker like Galloway who I believe is to the Right of McDonnell?

Sorry mate. I would like to keep some sanity in this in sane world.

BTW Groucho seems to be going in the right direction. Of a sort.
so what has the LP achieved in the past 5 years that makes you feel your continued membership was worthwhile?
 
glenquagmire said:
Being a LP member has never stopped me criticising or campaigning against bad Labour policies inside and outside the party.

Fair enough Glen, but i was thinking more of something along the lines of say a local campaign very effectively eating away at labour support to such an extent that the tories or lib-dems look like they'd be in with chance of taking the seat or the ward/council. In those circumstances? As i noted above though, it's perfectly possible that this situation could lead to that perosn deciding to leave the party rather than the campaign. But in my experience the tribal loyalty or fear of the tories seems to win out. Which is why the 'break with labour' debate is pretty important i think.
 
Hocus Eye. said:
NewLabour as it is not really called - they never officially changed the name of the party, is a replacement for the Tory party aimed at the 'upwardly mobile' as a kind of life-style accessory.

It is time the trade unions got wise and stopped bankrolling Labour and then set about helping form a real new party for the working class.
Yep, although I think it's true to say the unions are themslves more and more becoming similar bastions of those same upwardly mobile, aspirational "I'm all right jack" individualist fuckwits - not interested in solidarity but in "developing their career" (I:E; climbing the corporate ladder and shitting on those beneath them).
 
cockneyrebel said:
This is very true. And it's a big problem with political organisations full stop. There are many people in political organisations, even tiny far left groups, who stay involved because of the social life and nostalgic attachments rather than because of the politics. What do you think can be done about that out of interest?

What can be done about it? Offer that same attraction as they felt when they were driven to join the party?
 
poster342002 said:
Yep, although I think it's true to say the unions are themslves more and more becoming similar bastions of those same upwardly mobile, aspirational "I'm all right jack" individualist fuckwits - not interested in solidarity but in "developing their career" (I:E; climbing the corporate ladder and shitting on those beneath them).

'Twas ever thus with the unions, especially when it came to working in the TUC, where they get into a cosy club with so called Labour politicians, but it is down to the ordinary members to get active and elect or stand as reps and branch secretaries who will represent the concerns of members. Often the bureaucrats and in particular General Secretaries claim that they are being cautious because they don't think that the members will support industrial action. They must be given no excuse to think that members are conservative. The initial drive for action must be at 'grass roots' level within the unions themselves.
 
butchersapron said:
Fair enough Glen, but i was thinking more of something along the lines of say a local campaign very effectively eating away at labour support to such an extent that the tories or lib-dems look like they'd be in with chance of taking the seat or the ward/council. In those circumstances? As i noted above though, it's perfectly possible that this situation could lead to that perosn deciding to leave the party rather than the campaign. But in my experience the tribal loyalty or fear of the tories seems to win out. Which is why the 'break with labour' debate is pretty important i think.

If and when that situation arises I'll let you know how I deal with it.

Living in a safe Labour area, I can afford to attack the (fairly right-wing) local party as much as I want without having to consider the possibility of a Tory or Lib Dem council.
 
Hocus Eye. said:
'Twas ever thus with the unions, especially when it came to working in the TUC, where they get into a cosy club with so called Labour politicians, but it is down to the ordinary members to get active and elect or stand as reps and branch secretaries who will represent the concerns of members. Often the bureaucrats and in particular General Secretaries claim that they are being cautious because they don't think that the members will support industrial action. They must be given no excuse to think that members are conservative. The initial drive for action must be at 'grass roots' level within the unions themselves.
Yes, but increasingly even the grass-roots memebership itself seems to be more and more made up with those same upwardly mobile, aspirational "I'm all right jack" individualist fuckwits - as this demographic has swollen to obscene proportions during the last 30 years. It's probably even the majority, now.
 
What can be done about it? Offer that same attraction as they felt when they were driven to join the party?

But what I'm saying is that someone could join initially for political reasons (some people do get involved in political organisations for social reasons from the very beginning but that's not what I'm talking about. Having said that your life would have had to have hit a low ebb ;) ). But over time the organisation might change (shift to the right for instance). By that time though people's social lives have got meshed in with that organisation so they stay on regardless.

I've seen it happens loads of times when you know that people aren't staying involved for political reasons but because of social and/or nostalgic ties and will swallow almost any political line whatsover. How can that kinda thing be minimised?

I have to say I share butchers sceptisism that what's left in the Labour Party could be broken away, whatever happens. I remember someone saying to glenquagmire what would it take for you to leave Labour and she/he basically said it didn't matter what happened they'd stay on board.
 
As long as the union link exists, is the most likely answer.

But what do you mean by union link? Would you support the Democrats in the USA for that reason?

I have to say I haven't got a set view on this or on Permanent Revolution's view of critical support.

The trade union link to the Labour Party has become more and more bureaucratised and from my experience doesn't exist at a rank and file level any more, only at a top level. So what does that mean? Where does the leverage exist, especially given Brown's recent changes to conference.

I mean look at John McDonnell. I went to his main national rally in London and he couldn't even fill up a hall of 500. And out of the 350 there it was mainly older people and a fair layer of the far left. Even now the Labour Party probably has more than 150,000 members and not even 500 of them showed up. Doesn't this say something about the Labour Lefts links to the working class?

The SWP has probably got more activists and supporters than the Labour Left.
 
A report from Yorkshire:

McDonnell slaughters some sacred cows…as Brown gets “Blue Tongue disease”

On Saturday September 29th around 60 activists attended a forum in Hebden Bridge Trades Club, Yorkshire to discuss “21st Century Socialism”. This meeting took place immediately after the end of the LP conference in Bournemouth..

The first part of the day focussed on what Gordon Brown’s leadership of the party is likely to result in. Some comrades, in a very lively debate, argued that it was not right to slag off the new leader, that he must be given time to “turn things round”. They argued that he had already shown some encouraging steps in the right direction, notably in relation to “social” housing and halting further privatisation in the NHS. Other comrades, including your reporter, made the point that Gordon Brown was the chief architect of New Labour and that we should have no illusions about him.

For those that did, they should carefully study his first speech as leader in Bournemouth. His speech showed how fast the new “BlueTongue” disease was spreading. The speech was extremely right wing, with its focus on “Britishness” , including at one point the infamous reference to “British jobs for British workers” – taken straight from the BNP’s manifesto. Some comrades even tried to defend this chauvinist nonsense, by saying that he was meaning to include Black workers – yeah right!

As the various speakers, including McDonnell, arrived on the platform, contributors turned their attention to the role played by TU leaders last week. All agreed that the TU leaders had played a disgraceful role in their collaboration with Brown’s scheme to shut down the Conference as a democratic event where positions could be debated and decided. Their climbdown was universally condemned by the meeting.

There then followed a remarkable contribution from the platform by John McDonnell. In line with his piece in Saturday’s Morning Star, he spelled out what he saw as the “qualitative changes” in the LP as a result of the events in Bournemouth. He argued that “the old strategy of reclaiming the party had failed”, that “we need to reappraise”, that, “changes were non existent”. There has been “no movement forward” and the “party is degenerating”. Although he went on to argue against leaving the party, this was undoubtedly a departure from the relative complacency of many LRC supporters, who, in the previous discussion had reduced the problems to simply the Left having vacated the LP arena and if they would only return, things could be a lot different.

Any thoughts that McDonnell was simply “banging on” after Bournemouth were removed by what he next had to say. He said that the strategy of winning positions in the TUs by the Broad Lefts had ALSO failed and that in future we had to “take on the bureaucracy”! Further, the left had to engage with youth, direct action strategies and the new social movements for it to be relevant. Clearly, after his failed leadership campaign, the consolidation of Brown in power and the capitulation of Simpson, Woodley, Kenny et al, McDonnell has had a gutful.

How far this translates into a serious fight in the TUs and LP in the next period will depend on revolutionaries and other militants seizing on these remarks and translating them into action. It will also need us to “move on” from the warmed up old labour nostrums in the LRC’s “Another World is Possible” manifesto.

http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1681
 
Red Jezza said:
so what has the LP achieved in the past 5 years that makes you feel your continued membership was worthwhile?

Good question. And what has happened in the last 5 years to make anybody think there is any hope to the Left of Labour?
 
cockneyrebel said:
But what do you mean by union link? Would you support the Democrats in the USA for that reason?

The Democrats don't have the same institutional link with the unions. In fact, I think the Labour Party is pretty unique in that regard.

I have to say I haven't got a set view on this or on Permanent Revolution's view of critical support.

I know of at least one PRer in my constituency. Not active in the party, as far as I can tell

The trade union link to the Labour Party has become more and more bureaucratised and from my experience doesn't exist at a rank and file level any more, only at a top level. So what does that mean? Where does the leverage exist, especially given Brown's recent changes to conference.
It's always been fairly bureaucratised. Let's not get too misty-eyed for the days of Ernie Bevin. But it exists. I'm a union delegate to my local GC and there are a few others of varying political stripes, though not as many as there used to be. The national leverage is much, much less since the changes to conference.

I mean look at John McDonnell. I went to his main national rally in London and he couldn't even fill up a hall of 500. And out of the 350 there it was mainly older people and a fair layer of the far left. Even now the Labour Party probably has more than 150,000 members and not even 500 of them showed up. Doesn't this say something about the Labour Lefts links to the working class?
Most of the Labour lefties I know didn't know that meeting was happening. Organisationally, the left is very weak indeed. That doesn't mean they're not there. Plenty of them wouldn't consider coming down to London for a weekend talking shop but that doesn't diminish their politics, does it?

The SWP has probably got more activists and supporters than the Labour Left.
More activists, possibly, but certainly not more members or more supporters in the British working class.
 
Louis MacNeice said:
People won't leave the Labour because they've been in it a long long time and they find it very hard to imagine life outside it;


It must have escaped your attention but so many labour activists have now left the party, labour will have difficulty fighting a general election effectively at street level.
 
chymaera said:
It must have escaped your attention but so many labour activists have now left the party, labour will have difficulty fighting a general election effectively at street level.

But they can still win it at TV level.
Some people may be persuaded by activists going round trying to do impressions of ordinary people....But the real battle for hearts and minds is not going to be on the doorsteps its going to be in front rooms....
It doesnt matter how many Lib dem canvassers go round...People will see ming campbell on their TV and never vote for them....
Its going to be a straight contest between the Tories and Labour...
 
chymaera said:
It must have escaped your attention but so many labour activists have now left the party, labour will have difficulty fighting a general election effectively at street level.
No party needs to win at "street-level" any more. They just need the other parties to get slightly less votes than them on the sliding-apathy scale and they're in.
 
tbaldwin said:
But they can still win it at TV level.
...

Most people I know can't change channels fast enough if anything political appears on TV.

Street level door to door canvassing does make a difference, as proven by the BNP.
 
tbaldwin said:
But they can still win it at TV level.
Some people may be persuaded by activists going round trying to do impressions of ordinary people....But the real battle for hearts and minds is not going to be on the doorsteps its going to be in front rooms....
It doesnt matter how many Lib dem canvassers go round...People will see ming campbell on their TV and never vote for them....
Its going to be a straight contest between the Tories and Labour...
This sad process began some time back. I can remember back in the 80s when people would say fuckwitted things like "oooh, I agree with Labour's policies, but I can't vote for them with that Kinnock - he's welsh, you know". :rolleyes: So they'd plump for yet another dose of Maggie Thatcher. :rolleyes: :mad:
 
chymaera said:
It must have escaped your attention but so many labour activists have now left the party, labour will have difficulty fighting a general election effectively at street level.

What I was putting forwaard was an explanation for those who are still in. Apart from a few entrists I think the familiarity factor must have something going for it.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
 
Louis MacNeice said:
What I was putting forwaard was an explanation for those who are still in. Apart from a few entrists I think the familiarity factor must have something going for it.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
I suppose the obvious corollary to that is that if someone hasn't left, what with all that's happene,d there's nothing absolutely nothing that could prompt their consciences
 
The Democrats don't have the same institutional link with the unions. In fact, I think the Labour Party is pretty unique in that regard.

I agree with that. My point is that having union support in and of itself doesn't always mean anything. And the institutional link you're talking about is getting weaker and weaker, as you say yourself. So my point is that at what point do you think that weakening becomes a qualitive change? You said you'd remain an LP member all the time there is support from the unions, but if nearly all the leverage is cut off, what does that support mean?

I totally agree with not getting misty eyed, the Labour Party has always been the party of big business and imperialism, its history clearly shows this. But in the past the organised working class had organisational leverage, this seems to have all but disappeared.

On the point about McDonnell's meeting whatever way you look at it not being able to fill up a hall of 500 when an organisation has over 150,000 members says something fairly significant to me.
 
I still believe that the reason the Labour left stay in is because there is no alternative.
The justification is that you hang on to the few left MPs, who have a media profile, to provide some kind of 'beacon of hope' that they can be a pole of attraction to layers of workers trying to change things. Some of the labour supporting TU leaders occassionally come out with socialist rhetoric to gather some support.

Unfortunately while the Union movement largely remain affiliated to the party we are going to stay in the same mess.

Therefore there is no point in leaving.
 
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