john bowden

[revol68]

To be fair though it hasnt stopped you and numerous others from passing judgement as it?

yes it's true we have passed judgement on his past crimes and his bullshit rationalisation of them, so what? What the fuck do you expect when you've been banged up for chopping someone up alive?

 

[Luther Blissett]

So the ABC sat down and made this whole story up, as well (presumeably) as planting stories in the media branding themselves a terrorist group?

Whilst everyone in the anarchist movement is by now used to your shit stirring, you really have surpassed yourself with that one.

I think you've misunderstood, revol68 is talking alot of sense here.

 

[october_lost]

People keep going on about the head in the fridge, can you please explain to me how that rates according to the hierarchy of other crimes for example out of interest is premeditated murder worse than a war crime, a racist killing, or even rape?
Im also thinking is there ever a hope of winning people over who have strayed off the beaten track, or are there some people who are just too much harm for the PR of anarchism that they shouldnt be touched?

 

[Luther Blissett]

I'm quite baffled that you of all people would think anarchists should anything to do with John Bowden, afterall Class War have some pretty clear positions on their own prisoner support.

I'm baffled by it too, and I'm an anarchist.
I personally don't need a group to tell me which prisoners to support. I wholeheartedly supported US blogger Josh Wolf, for example. Israelis who are imprisoned for their conscientious objection to serving in the occupied Palestinian Territories get my support to. But do I want to support a dismembering murder whose crimes have been downplayed by an anarchist prisoner support group? Not really - I think that's misguided. Bowden's crime was not politically motivated. Bowden's imprisonment was not politically motivated. By the same measure, I don't support anyone who uses violence or intimidation to achieve their aims. Why? Because violence and intimidation are what many state and corporate security forces use to achieve their aims. To resort to such tactics can never bring about the type of society which all anarchists profess they want to live in.
Like revol68, I think Bowden's association with ABC is being used to cover other reasons why they don't want to release him, and no, I don't think that ABC are a 'terrorist group' or 'ecoterrorist group', they're just a prisoner support group. If anything, this current state of affairs shows the lack of genuine prisoner support provided by the state who's detained the ex-convict 'at her majesty's pleasure' for however many years. The state has no viable prisoner support system for soon-to-be-released prisoners who were convicted for violent or murderous acts, to me, that's the real issue here - the failure of the prison system to provide genuine, viable, workable, meaningful support for these types of long-term prisoner upon their release back into wider society.

(edit to add clarity).

 

[revol68]

People keep going on about the head in the fridge, can you please explain to me how that rates according to the hierarchy of other crimes for example out of interest is premeditated murder worse than a war crime, a racist killing, or even rape?
Im also thinking is there ever a hope of winning people over who have strayed off the beaten track, or are there some people who are just too much harm for the PR of anarchism that they shouldnt be touched?

The point is that anarchists shouldn't be extending solidairty to anyone in jail for such vicous anti social crimes!

Strayed off the beaten path? What the fuck! Are you a christian, is god our sheperd?

Just how much recruitment or strength do you think would come from the self organisation of sadistic murderers? I mean if we can't relate ourselves to them then who can we.

 

[Luther Blissett]

People keep going on about the head in the fridge, can you please explain to me how that rates according to the hierarchy of other crimes for example out of interest is premeditated murder worse than a war crime, a racist killing, or even rape?
Im also thinking is there ever a hope of winning people over who have strayed off the beaten track, or are there some people who are just too much harm for the PR of anarchism that they shouldnt be touched?

This is the problem of the prison system itself - they don't have a meaningful external prisoner support network in place. They're the one's who are panicking and grasping at straws here. It's obvous the ABC aren't a 'terror' group, but what is obvious is the lack of foresight and provision for a support network for when long-term prisoners convicted of violent crime (murder, rape, abh, etc) are released back into society.

 

[In Bloom]

To be fair though it hasnt stopped you and numerous others from passing judgement as it?

Why would the fact that he's only released details that are sure to bring ABC and the surrounding milleu dashing to his defence prevent me from forming an opinion?

 

[In Bloom]

People keep going on about the head in the fridge, can you please explain to me how that rates according to the hierarchy of other crimes for example out of interest is premeditated murder worse than a war crime, a racist killing, or even rape?

Are you seriously suggesting that anarchists should be cosying up to racists and nonces? Maybe we should be doing community outreach programs for scabs, poor lost lambs that they are.

 

[october_lost]

Are you seriously suggesting that anarchists should be cosying up to racists and nonces? Maybe we should be doing community outreach programs for scabs, poor lost lambs that they are.

Read my post, Im not suggesting anything of the sort, but nothing is so black and white as you argue there are only shades of grey and gradients to pull in our direction. Scabs, racists and murderes have deserted their posts for our movement before and I hope many more do so in the future, albeit with the best of intentions.

 

[llantwit]

Radical and uncompromising behaviour like torturing somebody to death and then keeping their head in the fridge?
Yeah, I'm afraid I'll have to side with the liberals on this one.

Yeah, cos that's exactly what I meant.
Obviously, I'm not saying his crime should be condoned, but his behaviour at the hands of an unjust prison system, and his critique of that system in his writings since being banged up, should be supported.

 

[revol68]

Yeah, cos that's exactly what I meant.
Obviously, I'm not saying his crime should be condoned, but his behaviour at the hands of an unjust prison system, and his critique of that system in his writings since being banged up, should be supported.

How is the prison system unjust to him? Because they keep him locked up?

the guy carried out a brutal murder and has never been able to do his time.

I've far more respect for those lifers who do their time than some guy who doesn't seem able to accept responsibility for his crime nor accepted his punishment.

 

[october_lost]

How is the prison system unjust to him? Because they keep him locked up?

Because they are punishing him by admitance of most on here due to his politics.

the guy carried out a brutal murder and has never been able to do his time

I've far more respect for those lifers who do their time than some guy who doesn't seem able to accept responsibility for his crime nor accepted his punishment.

Im not sure what criteria you judging this by, if John came out and said is previous criminal act was heinous would that satisfy?

 

[revol68]

Because they are punishing him by admitance of most on here due to his politics.

Im not sure what criteria you judging this by, if John came out and said is previous criminal act was heinous would that satisfy?

I've went over this plenty of times!

He should never have been touched by the ABC in the first place. If it is true that he is being vicitimised because of his connections with the ABC then at best the case for him getting political support is circular and self fufilling.

Considering he escaped for two years in 1992 I'd say he's never been able to face up to what he done and accept the punishment.

 

[agricola]

Because they are punishing him by admitance of most on here due to his politics.

Im not sure what criteria you judging this by, if John came out and said is previous criminal act was heinous would that satisfy?

I think you'll find that the majority of posters who have actually looked deeper than Bowden's self-serving articles both here and on the other thread have recognized that Bowden's continued detention probably does have rather more justification than his political contacts - for instance, there is the matter of whether his sentence is actually served (his life tarriff was 25 years, plus 5 years for two linked GBH's, plus ten years for a hostage taking, and 18 months of an escape).

As for Bowden admitting that his previous criminal act (one would also of course point out this should be acts) was heinous, that is of course both stating the obvious and somewhat irrelevant, given that he invariably excuses himself ("it was the state wot dun it, guv").

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ive tried to avoid this debate on both here and libcom, but I think its taking a turn for the worse because those who wish to steer clear of JB fail to recognise that JB is being punished by association, and simply reiterating how bad the politics are of the ABC doesnt really side step the issue.

Let me put this more simply, it appears the British state was all but willing to release John but for the fact that he as a mutual relationship with the ABC, forgive me but doesnt that mean that some anarchists are asking or supporting of more authoritarian measure that those currently dished out by the state?

If John Bowden is a bit too grisly when and where will the poster boy for prison solidarity make an appearance?

It's likely that if, as has been claimed, it's John Bowden's association with ABC that is putting the kybosh on him obtaining a life licence, then the parole board has reason (or pretends to have reason, or has been duped by the CPS or the police [probably SB]) to believe that such an association would lead Bowden into criminal activity.

It's bullshit, but it's well-used bullshit that's very hard to challenge, basically "guilt by association".

 

[llantwit]

How is the prison system unjust to him? Because they keep him locked up?

No. What they did to him and others who organise against prison repression inside. I'm basing my comments on a reading of his recent pamphlet "Tear Down the Walls", which talks about lots of ways in which the prison system is unjust. It's not online, and my copy's at home, so I can't quote here. But I'll try and post a few key points from that when I get back later. Admittedly, I only have his word here, and he could be making it all up. But I doubt it. And a lot of what he's campaigning against is general stuff about the prison system, and not specific to his individual case at all.

 

[agricola]

No. What they did to him and others who organise against prison repression inside. I'm basing my comments on a reading of his recent pamphlet "Tear Down the Walls", which talks about lots of ways in which the prison system is unjust. It's not online, and my copy's at home, so I can't quote here. But I'll try and post a few key points from that when I get back later. Admittedly, I only have his word here, and he could be making it all up. But I doubt it. And a lot of what he's campaigning against is general stuff about the prison system, and not specific to his individual case at all.

For some sad reason "Tear Down the Walls" doesnt seem to be available online.

I guess though that might be a good thing, given this quote from it:

"For having stood up to and resisted unlawful and inhuman treatment in prison, and retained some basic human integrity and humanity in the process, I probably shall now remain imprisoned far beyond what even a reactionary judge deemed an appropriate period of time all those years ago. Hell will freeze over, however, before I surrender that part of myself that had the courage and integrity to fight back and resist when resistance often seemed futile."

Can anyone who, given what he did, produce such unmitigated, self-serving and unpleasant tripe have anything meaningful to say about anything? The fact that he uses the term "reactionary judge" says it all, really.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The fact that he uses the term "reactionary judge" says it all, really.

You're right.

It's jolly bad form to use oxymorons, what!

 

[Luther Blissett]

Because they are punishing him by admitance of most on here due to his politics.

I don't think they are. He was given a 25 year minimum sentence of Life, plus add-on years for subsequent acts of violence, hostage taking, and escape. Without being paranoid it's possible that the American(?) social-worker (is their nationality important here - do they work for GEO?) who exploited the link to ABC, likely to be politically motivated as part of a wider smear on anarchist 'organisations' that's creeping into the media presently. The newspaper story serves the anti-anarchist 'aspect', rather than being a valid reason for denying Bowden release at this point in time.

Revol68 is still making excellent points about the nature of prisoner support that political organisations make, whatever their ideology.

Personally, I haven't been able to identify with where ABC are coming from, and like revol68, assumed they supported political prisoners, rather than prisoners with politics. I don't easily recognise the origins of their ideology, and would find it interesting if they could provide an explanation, or point me to somewhere I could read about it. Thanks.

(mending a sentence that didn't scan)

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Considering he escaped for two years in 1992 I'd say he's never been able to face up to what he done and accept the punishment.

That statement is utter tripe - you're seriously claiming that the fact of having transgressed 15 years ago means the guy is (1) still a danger to society (2) unable to demonstrate contrition for his crime? wtf? get a grip man. Consider the following:

'As far as my past goes, i don't think that it should be forgotten about or swept under the carpet as though it doesn't exist. It does exist. It does exist and is very much a part of me. My own personal experiences have taught me that mistakes made are very much a part of living. Certainly we must try and learn from them, as in this instance, and use this knowledge to let others see what can happen. I dread the thought of other kids going through my experience in order to gain the insight that i have now. Perhaps this could be used as a short cut.

What worries me in the field of human contact is that there are too many professional status seekers and not enough patients. By that I mean not enough people wanting to look at their own personal problems but quite content to diagnose the problems of others. What I have written here is not intended to be an apologetic account about what happened in my life. Certainly i have caused much suffering and have suffered, but the disease is much larger and older than me. An environment has been created that has encouraged change and that is what must be looked at.'

It's Jimmy Boyle from A Sense of Freedom. I'm not for a second suggesting an equivalence between Boyle and Bowden I would, however, raise the fact that whereas the former 'found' art, was released and became a feted serious artist, the other has 'found' politics with the result that the possibility of his release has seemingly been removed.

 

[In Bloom]

Personally, I haven't been able to identify with where ABC are coming from, and like revol68, assumed they supported political prisoners, rather than prisoners with politics. I don't easily recognise the origins of their ideology, and would find it interesting if they could provide an explanation, or point me to somewhere I could read about it. Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Black_Cross
For many years, the origin of the organization was under dispute, but recent documents have resurfaced that has narrowed down the time frame. According to Rudolph Rocker, once the treasurer for the Anarchist Red Cross in London, the organization was founded during the "hectic period between 1900 and 1905." Most material discussing ABC history points to this era as the birth of this group. However, according to Harry Weinstein, one of the two men who began the organization, the activties of the group began after his arrest in July or August of 1906. Once released, Weinstein and others provided clothing to anarchist sentenced to exile in Siberia. The group broke off from the Political Red Cross - an organization that provided support for all revolutionary political prisoners- when Weinstein and other anarchists received no support despite ample donations from the anarchist community. Weinstein continued his efforts in Russia until his arrival in New York in May of 1907. Once there, he helped to create the New York Anarchist Red Cross.

During the Russian Civil War (1918-20), the group's name was changed, so as to avoid confusion with the Red Cross. In this era, the groups used various names including: Chicago Aid Fund, Society to Aid Anarchist Prisoners in Russia, Joint Committee to Aid Revolutions Imprisoned in Russia, and the Anarchist Black Cross. During the 1960s, it was reformed in Britain by Stuart Christie and Albert Meltzer with a focus on providing aid for anarchist prisoners in Francisco Franco's Spain. The reason for this was Christie's experience of the fascist regime's jail and the importance of receiving food parcels. At that time there were no international groups acting for Spanish anarchist and Resistance prisoners. The first action of the re-activated group was to bring Miguel Garcia, who Christie met in prison, out of Spain on his release. He went on to act as the group's International secretary, working for the release of others[3].

The organization continued to grow, spreading throughout Europe and North America. In 1995, ABC chapters in the US merged into a Federation- the Anarchist Black Cross Federation. While other formations tried to startup, they were unable to maintain long term support. Around 2001, a new organization, Anarchist Black Cross Network, began and attempted to present themselves as an alternative to the ABC Federation. A conflict existed until members of both organization sat down at the Break the Chains conference; since then the two groups have tried to develop a working relationship.

Hope that helps

 

[llantwit]

For some sad reason "Tear Down the Walls" doesnt seem to be available online.

It's not online - it's pamphlet sold for £1 by Leeds ABC. Well worth a read, too. I'd offer to sumarise key points when I get home, but I'm away til next Monday now, so it'll have to wait.

I guess though that might be a good thing, given this quote from it:
[snip]
Can anyone who, given what he did, produce such unmitigated, self-serving and unpleasant tripe have anything meaningful to say about anything?

WTF? What's wrong with that statement? That prison is inhuman and degrading? That judges are reactionary? The fact that resistance is legitimate in a prison environment?

The fact that he uses the term "reactionary judge" says it all, really.

Quite. That bit should go without saying, really, shouldn't it?

 

[revol68]

WTF? What's wrong with that statement? That prison is inhuman and degrading? That judges are reactionary? The fact that resistance is legitimate in a prison environment?

that he has the balls to big himself up like that after what he's done!

And i'm sorry but if you chop someone up alive I don't really give a fuck for your struggle for dignit, he should shut the fuck up and accept his punishment.

And how exactly is a judge sentencing John Bowden to 25 years for what he did 'reactionary'?

Should he have let him go free and instead pointed his finger at capitalism in general?

 

[llantwit]

I guess what it comes down to for me is a separation of condemnation for Bowden's previous acts from the usefulness and veracity of his current critique of the justice and penal system (which I think has a lot of merit) and support for his organising against that system while inside.

That's not an unproblematic distinction to make - it's difficult and messy, but I think it just about holds, and is preferable to simply saying fuck him and cheering on the state that wishes to break, destroy, and pound him (and others like him) into the ground.

 

[revol68]

so would you support paedo's and rapists in their struggle against the prison system?

 

[agricola]

I guess what it comes down to for me is a separation of condemnation for Bowden's previous acts from the usefulness and veracity of his current critique of the justice and penal system (which I think has a lot of merit) and support for his organising against that system while inside.

It has no merit coming from an "abolitionist" who is probably one of the only type of criminals who even anarchists would agree deserves to be locked up for what he did. Its not as if he is Mark Barnsley, you know.

To back up what Revol68 says, I was not aware that robbing a park keeper, then boiling him alive, then dismembering him (as well as GBH'ing two other dossers) counted as revolutionary behaviour that was harshly dealt with by the forces of reaction.

As for his resistance in prison, if you are acknowledging that he has been doing that why are you surprised that he isnt getting released?

 

[agricola]

That's not an unproblematic distinction to make - it's difficult and messy, but I think it just about holds, and is preferable to simply saying fuck him and cheering on the state that wishes to break, destroy, and pound him (and others like him) into the ground.

Break him? From his position of holding his "basic human integrity and humanity" that resulted in him committing an especially evil murder? He should be broken.

 

[llantwit]

so would you support paedo's and rapists in their struggle against the prison system?
Reply With Quote

I don't know is the simple honest answer. But I wouldn't rule out support because of past acts. People change - a monster isn't a monster for life. It's just not that simple.
Let me put it this way.
I read John Bowden's pamphlet knowing nothing about his crime, and his general critique stood up on it's own. That's what I support. Since then I've found out more about what he did (and been disgusted by it), that does change things a bit, but it doesn't really lessen my agreement with what he's written.

 

[revol68]

I don't know is the simple honest answer. But I wouldn't rule out support because of past acts. People change - a monster isn't a monster for life. It's just not that simple.
Let me put it this way.
I read John Bowden's pamphlet knowing nothing about his crime, and his general critique stood up on it's own. That's what I support. Since then I've found out more about what he did (and been disgusted by it), but that does change things a bit, but it doesn't really lessen my agreement with what he's written.

Well where do you think John Bowden should be instead of prison? Should he have been just allowed to escape off?

 

[llantwit]

It has no merit coming from an "abolitionist" who is probably one of the only type of criminals who even anarchists would agree deserves to be locked up for what he did. Its not as if he is Mark Barnsley, you know.

I know that - and I still think it's difficult to separate wider critique of a system from the previous (disgusting) acts of the person making that critique.

To back up what Revol68 says, I was not aware that robbing a park keeper, then boiling him alive, then dismembering him (as well as GBH'ing two other dossers) counted as revolutionary behaviour that was harshly dealt with by the forces of reaction.

It's clearly not revolutionary behaviour. It's sickening. And maybe he doesn't deserve to be released. That doesn't lessen the veracity of much of his critique - whichy is all I'm talking about here.

As for his resistance in prison, if you are acknowledging that he has been doing that why are you surprised that he isnt getting released?

I'm not surprised at all, and neither is he, I suspect. He not only acknowledges, but details his resistance in prison in his writing.