John Allen Muhammad; washington sniper to die tonight

[derf]

Well If someone decided to take out our politicians I'm not going to cry too many tears frankly. I didn't cry any when the IRA narrowly missed Thatcher in Brighton and neither did a lot of people at that time. Some of us cheered.

Perhaps "hero" is too strong a word. What I mean is that if he was determined to throw his life away, he could have left a more politically understandable legacy if he had chosen a more justifiable target. Instead he left a pointless bloodbath. He wasted an opportunity.

He claimed to be politically motivated at his trial but this random shooting of innocents just looks like nihilistic madness which of course is what it was , of course my speculation is pointless cus he was clearly a nut job.

You cheered at murder and would support killing people in the street?

Add yourself to the list of nut jobs.

 

[weltweit]

There must have been something wrong with him.

Normal people do not assasinate 10 other normal people.

He had traumatic events in his life, it would not surprise me to find that he had mental abberations.

 

[oryx]

I'm pro and see his death as a good move.

Random murder and murder by the state amount to the same thing.

The end result is a corpse, or corpses.

This guy should have been imprisoned for life as long as he was clearly a danger to others, which he obviously was, but the death penalty is just as barbaric as random killing.

IMHO.

 

[weltweit]

When is a perpetrator sane and in control of themselves and therefore guilty of crime and when is a perpetrator mentally ill and not of sound mind?

 

[Azrael]

Everyone should watch A Short Film About Killing

Fine, if alongside it we have a film about the "long-winded bureaucratic precision" of locking someone up until they die, the likely fate of Muhammad's accomplice Lee Boyd Malvo.

While I commend efforts to speed up executions, I don't like Virginia's 21 day rule. (Does it have any link with the "three clear Sundays" rule England used to employ, or is the duration coincidental?) Sacrificing justice for efficiency will endanger innocents and undermine support for capital punishment.

But as a general supporter of capital punishment, I have no problems with Muhammad's fate. He appears to be guilty beyond any reasonable doubt of inciting and conspiring in random murders, premeditated in the extreme. I can't see any extenuating circumstances. Good job, USA.

 

[derf]

Random murder and murder by the state amount to the same thing.

The end result is a corpse, or corpses.

IMHO.

You really think they are the same?
One is a killer, the other simply wipes away the dog shit from society's shoe.

 

[oryx]

You really think they are the same?

Yes. To me one of the marks of a civilised society is not having the death penalty.

There are some of us that don't see other people as tantamount to 'shit' - if you do you have a very simplistic and dangerous view of the world.

 

[Azrael]

Personally, I don't see people as shit. I support capital punishment because I believe it's a proportionate and humane response to the uniquely wicked crime of murder. My support is contingent on due process and jury trial, and a humane method of execution. At no point do I deny the murderer's humanity, or wish to see them suffer needlessly. It's precisely because they're human that I believe they should be held to account.

 

[cliche guevara]

Anyone who supports the death penalty should be executed.

 

[Azrael]

An attitude befitting your username.

 

[oryx]

a humane method of execution.

Do you honestly think any methods of execution are humane?

Yeah, that well-known wonderful method of punishment, The Death Penalty. Proportionate, humane and such a great deterrent that yeah, like, in countries like the US no-one murders anybody.

 

[Azrael]

Do you honestly think any methods of execution are humane?

Variable-drop hanging appeared to kill the condemned quickly and painlessly. If you're talking about the psychological effects of execution, I doubt life imprisonment is much better. I think it's much worse, as the Italian lifers who begged to be executed testify.

Yeah, that well-known wonderful method of punishment, The Death Penalty. Proportionate, humane and such a great deterrent that yeah, like, in countries like the US no-one murders anybody.

Perhaps because you've probably got more chance of being hit by a metiorite than being executed in the USA. Even allegedly execution-happy Texas kills under 1% of convicted murderers. Most "death penalty" states execute a minuscule number of folk devils to appease the voters. Mr Murderer knows he has little to fear. Deterrence relies on extensive and regular executions, like in England pre-1957, where all murderers were sentenced to death, and around half those sentences were executed.

 

[weltweit]

When Britain stopped executions, why did we stop them?

 

[Azrael]

Because they weren't civilised, according to Roy Jenkins.

If people think Muhammad shouldn't have been put to death, what should the courts have done with him? "Rehabilitate" him? Unlikely, isn't it? We'd end up with him rotting in a cage until, probably frail, senile and traumatised, he died in prison as an old man. What purpose would this be serving? Is it kind?

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Variable-drop hanging appeared to kill the condemned quickly and painlessly. If you're talking about the psychological effects of execution, I doubt life imprisonment is much better. I think it's much worse, as the Italian lifers who begged to be executed testify.

i think having a choice in the matter changes things greatly

life with a option of volentary euthenasia is an idea

personally i think a life inside is better than death

 

[oryx]

I reckon there are three extremely strong arguments against the death penalty:

- it's inhumane - I've never seen an execution (!) but have read descriptions and seen them re-enacted (from The Tudors to The Green Mile! ) - give me life in a cell any day

- there's the chance of being wrong - cf Timothy Evans, Derek Bentley

- it's not a deterrent.

 

[weltweit]

I am sure it is possible to humanely execute people, the trouble is, spectators don't always appreciate it. A bullet in the head is pretty instant for example and cheap as chips.. Then there is the method applied to my cat, an injection of something into the back of the neck which killed my cat pretty much instantly.

 

[Azrael]

i think having a choice in the matter changes things greatly

life with a option of volentary euthenasia is an idea

personally i think a life inside is better than death

I foresee lots of prisoners being "persuaded" by gaolers. And where does it stop? If it's voluntary, there's no logical reason it couldn't apply to crimes other than murder. Do child abusers get to opt for a visit to the execution cell? Before you know it, our whole system could be corrupted, and life ends up not just cheap, but in the bargain bin.

I reckon there are three extremely strong arguments against the death penalty:

- it's inhumane - I've never seen an execution (!) but have read descriptions and seen them re-enacted (from The Tudors to The Green Mile! ) - give me life in a cell any day

What bearing do sensationalist historical executions from fiction have on a debate about execution in the modern world? The method is everything. You're comparing apples and oranges. Variable-drop hanging, after some early and grisly mistakes, is notable for its complete absence of drama.

- there's the chance of being wrong - cf Timothy Evans, Derek Bentley

Absolute opposition to the taking of innocent life allows no exceptions. Unless you're a pacifist who thinks cars should be banned, you can't oppose execution on those grounds.

- it's not a deterrent.

Evidence, please.

 

[Azrael]

I am sure it is possible to humanely execute people, the trouble is, spectators don't always appreciate it. A bullet in the head is pretty instant for example and cheap as chips.. Then there is the method applied to my cat, an injection of something into the back of the neck which killed my cat pretty much instantly.

Spectators can salivate over The Green Mile and The Tudors until they must be led to the locked ward. The legal system can get on with executing murderers. Sounds fair.

 

[oryx]

Evidence, please.

If the death penalty was a deterrent, then people in countries where it existed wouldn't carry out crimes which carried it as a penalty.

But hey, they still do!

 

[ymu]

I suppose his defence could have been insanity, I mean shooting that many people is pretty much a gurantee of a death penalty so he was committing suicide. I wonder what his defence was?

His plan (according to his accomplice) was to kill 6 people a day for a month in one city, to repeat this in another city, to blackmail the USG into giving him millions of dollars to stop, and then to drive to Canada picking up black kids on the way to establish a new homeland north of the border.

I doubt he was of sound mind.

Evidence, please.

Why don't you provide evidence? Do states/countries with the death penalty have lower murder rates than those which don't?

 

[weltweit]

But when is a perpetrator a bad person who does bad things and can therefore be fully punished including being put to death?

And when are they not the full ticket and therefore more suited to care and whatnot?

 

[Azrael]

If the death penalty was a deterrent, then people in countries where it existed wouldn't carry out crimes which carried it as a penalty.

But hey, they still do!

This only flies if a deterrent is absolute. The world doesn't work in absolutes. It isn't about whether all murders will be deterred, but whether some will be. If a state hardly ever executes, capital punishment has minimal deterrent power.

Why don't you provide evidence? Do states/countries with the death penalty have lower murder rates than those which don't?

Some do. Some don't. I don't claim any universal, clear principle of deterrence. I think it's probable in some circumstances, in some cultures. The rise in British homicide and attempted homicide shows that something is up. We could reintroduce capital punishment for 10 years as an experiment. How about it?

 

[Azrael]

But when is a perpetrator a bad person who does bad things and can therefore be fully punished including being put to death?

And when are they not the full ticket and therefore more suited to care and whatnot?

When their counsel convinces a court that they're insane. Virginia allows the traditional common law defence of being so mad you can't tell right from wrong, and also a defence of "irresistible impulse". Has Muhammad's counsel claimed either?

 

[oryx]

It isn't about whether all murders will be deterred, but whether some will be. If a state hardly ever executes, capital punishment has minimal deterrent power.

But the murder rate is about twice as high in the US where they have capital punishment than in the UK where they don't.

So if it's not an effective deterrent, why have it? Locking someone up for life will get rid of a murderer's ability to go out and kill more people, and taking away someone's freedom is a huge punishment, so why murder murderers?

 

[gaijingirl]

One of the most powerful movies I've ever seen. Should be shown in schools.

Just researched this - sadly it's an 18 so can't be shown in schools (in the UK anyway).

 

[ymu]

But the murder rate is about twice as high in the US where they have capital punishment than in the UK where they don't.

So if it's not an effective deterrent, why have it? Locking someone up for life will get rid of a murderer's ability to go out and kill more people, and taking away someone's freedom is a huge punishment, so why murder murderers?

Closer to three times as high.

# 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
# 2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
# 3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
# 4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
# 5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
# 6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
# 7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
# 8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
# 9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
# 10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
# 11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
# 12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
# 13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
# 14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
# 15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
# 16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
# 17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
# 18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
# 19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
# 20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
# 21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
# 22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
# 23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
# 26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
# 27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
# 28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
# 29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
# 30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
# 31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
# 32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
# 33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
# 34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
# 35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
# 36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people
# 37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
# 38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
# 39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
# 40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
# 41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
# 42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
# 43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
# 45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
# 47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
# 48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
# 49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
# 50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
# 51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
# 52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
# 53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
# 54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
# 55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
# 56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
# 57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
# 58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
# 59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
# 60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
# 61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
# 62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

 

[Azrael]

But the murder rate is about twice as high in the US where they have capital punishment than in the UK where they don't.

I've already explained this. Deterrence relies on fear changing our behaviour for the good, which relies on a criminal thinking there's a high chance of dying if they commit murder. There's a low chance in the USA, where a tiny, tiny number of people are executed.

In Texas, it's less than 1% of convicted murderers. Pennsylvania has the death penalty, but has executed a mere three murderers since 1976. New Hampshire officially has the death penalty, but it hasn't actually hanged anyone since Hitler invaded Poland!

In short, execution in the USA is tokenistic, and does nothing to prove deterrence, either way.

So if it's not an effective deterrent, why have it? Locking someone up for life will get rid of a murderer's ability to go out and kill more people, and taking away someone's freedom is a huge punishment, so why murder murderers?

I know it's popular to call execution "murder", but its a contradiction in terms. Murder is by definition unlawful killing. Executions are lawful. Ipso facto, they cannot be murder.

Execution is less cruel than caging a man until their dotage, where they die in a pen, having been reduced to shadows of men by a lifetime of confinement. I can think of few things so cruel and unusual, yet Amnesty International and the ranks of anti-execution people seem untroubled by this calculated deterioration.

Most importantly, execution is a proportionate punishment for the unique crime of intentionally annihilating another human being's existence for your own benefit. Gaol isn't qualitatively different to the punishment for assaults and thefts. Therefore it isn't just. When you can devise a proportionate alternative to execution, such as the mind wipe seen in sci-fi, get back to me on this point.

 

[Azrael]

Closer to three times as high.

That glib comparison ignores a host of factors, like the stability of a society, its wealth, and its culture. Although Japan is near the bottom of your list, I don't think its occasional hangings are the cause. Japanese culture probably has far more to do with it. Likewise, I don't think the fact that Colombia has abolished execution is responsible for it being at the top.

 

[ymu]

I wasn't presenting it as evidence, just correcting the statistical claim.

I've asked you to present evidence. If it's a deterrent you'll be able to show cases where the death penalty was introduced and murder rates went down. Or cases where it was abolished and murder rates went up. Or even cases where increasing the severity of a sentence acts as a deterrent in murder cases.

As far as I know, no such evidence exists. Which is why I'm asking you to produce it.

[O]ne of the main arguments given for this increase in minimum sentences is a perceived deterrent effect. This is presumably what home secretary Alan Johnson had in mind when he said that the government is "sending out a clear message to the small minority of people who commit such serious and premeditated crime that it will not be tolerated". Whatever the commonsense arguments supporting this conclusion, it is simply not backed up by the evidence. In fact, an overwhelming body of evidence shows that increasing sentence lengths has no significant impact on offending.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/13/knife-crime-minimum-jail-sentence

The death penalty costs considerably more than whole life imprisonment, and runs a substantial risk of an irreversible miscarriage of justice. If you can't demonstrate that it keeps people safer, it has no justification.