Jewish Settler Violence in Occupied Palestine

[moono]

Rachamim;

Moono: You are wrong as usual. You see, as I stated, renumeration and/or return was offered. There is no basis whatsoever for any such "right" under International Law.

You lie, as usual. Let's start to demonstrate that thouroughly;

Significantly, the UN maintains a separate and distinct definition of the word "refugees" for Palestinians who left Israel in 1948 and/or 1967. Palestinian refugees from Israel are classed as both the individuals who left Israel and any descendants of those individuals. This stands in contrast to the UN definition of refugee as it applies to displaced persons connected with territories other than those of the State of Israel: in the latter case it refers only to those individuals who were forced to flee, not to their lineal descendants.

In the first instance then, the Palestinian diaspora is all Palestinians, including descendants. Are you, or are you not, on record here as refuting this ?

Come in, Club Hasbara.


In the unlikely event that you succeed in evading the question by wriggling, passing blame , denying, lying or any other shyster evasive trick your next task will be to support your lie that ' there is no basis whatsoever for the 'right of return' under international law'. This must be attempted despite -;

A wide range of international legal instruments, including human rights law, humanitarian law, law of nationality, UN resolutions, bilateral and regional agreements, domestic law, as well as general legal principles considered to be binding recognize the right of refugees to return to their places of origin. Many of these same legal instruments also recognize the right to restitution of property.

Rachamim;

Moono: You are wrong as usual. You see, as I stated.....blah, blah, lie, falsify, misinform, conjure, invent, deceive etc.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: The UN's special deinfition is not in fact a legal defintion. It sprang from an anti-Israel non-binding Resolution that was of course authored by Arab states in a state of perpetually declared war with Israel. That deifnition means nothing under International Law. In addition, the UN does not make or deal in International Law or International Law precedents.

Why ask a question to which you clearly already have the answer? More to the point, please explain what your UN blurb has to do with International Law? The wording of a non-binding Resolution means NOTHING TO NOONE.

Your second blurb, on International Law, is utter nonsense. Explain oh wise one exactly what UN Resolutions have to do with International Law? Thanks.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

the UN does not make or deal in International Law or International Law precedents.

Astounding. The other six-and-a-half billion of us thought it did. We are humbled.

Repeat;

A wide range of international legal instruments, including human rights law, humanitarian law, law of nationality, UN resolutions, bilateral and regional agreements, domestic law, as well as general legal principles considered to be binding recognize the right of refugees to return to their places of origin. Many of these same legal instruments also recognize the right to restitution of property.

The truth is coming to claim you, Rachamim. Worry.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: No , only you Moono...only you.

 

[tangentlama]

Tangent: The thing to remember with "Settlers" is that roughly 80% are/were in the "Territory[ies]" for economic reasons, not religious or nationalist sentiments. Of that demographic, many could not care less whether they were living in the "West Bank" or as we see, Ethiopia.

I won't forget, and in fact, I remember clearly making a bit of a fuss about the free-flowing US funding and 'encouragement' to go against the Israeli government, because of what the Bible is supposed to prove.

You mean the Arab "Right of Return?" there is no such thing.

Not really. I meant the right of return or compensation which European Jews who lost everything to the Nazis have pioneered.

First of all, no one exiled those Arabs, those that were in the tiny group that were expelled, were given two options at wars end: Accept Israeli dominion and swear fealty and become citizens, or take a cash payout for property lost. Even if you are to theoretically allow for THeiR return, it would not include offspring born after they left, etc. So, there is no issue as far as Israel and the West is concerned.

They're still refugees. The deal seems unreal compared to the amends which European countries are making. It's a crucial keystone to peace though, and so even though these deals have already been made, they don't seem enough.

9/11 had nothing to do with Israel, etc. Bin Laden is in what he and others feelis a struggle between east and west. Israel is a facet of that struggle but not the common denomniator by a long shot. If America cut off all relations with Israel do you think Bin Laden would have NOT attacked it?

Bin Laden attacked America, not Israel. Israel's treatment of Palestinians at US involvement is a part of the reason why Bin Laden attacked America and the World Trade Center.

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: Only Jews who actually suffered at the nads of the Nazis received compensation, not their descendants.

Refugees who have made their own bed for the most part, and irregardless were compensated half a century ago. While some refused compensation, that was their bad decison. Borders were drawn, it happened all over the region with 22 other nations [21 of which were Arab]. Almost all of the Arab refugees could have stayed had they wanted to, like the antecedents of the 1.3 million Arabs now in Israel.


Bin Laden merely used the Israeli/"Palestinian" situation as a rallying call. His problem is with US's presence in Saudi Arabia. His second biggest beef is with the Shia. "Palestine" is not on the top of the list.

 

[tangentlama]

following on from the much publicised (in the Jewish world and beyond) harassments given to indiginous Palestinians in the Hebron and Tel Rumeida last year (still ongoing)

B'Tselem (Israeli Information Centre for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories) ongoing report:
http://www.btselem.org/english/Settler_Violence/

2007, June 11:
Daily harassment in Hebron; letter from a Palestinian friend
Hebron ethnic cleansing: What they don’t show you on CNN

 

[tangentlama]

A significant change in the way settler violence/tree uprootings are being handled, unfortunately, the settlers were not prevented from uprooting the trees, but the Civil Administrator, Poli Mordechai, has demanded that either the trees are replaced, or his command will see the trees restored forcibly.

Barak and the olive tree test

By Haaretz Editorial

Settlers from the illegal outpost Adei Ad in Samaria a week ago uprooted some 300 olive trees belonging to Palestinians who live nearby, according to a report by a Civil Administration source. Uprooting trees is a deplorable and illicit phenomenon that characterizes the way settlers harass their hapless neighbors. It focuses on olive trees, a source of revenue for their owners and a symbol, because of their longevity, of an ancient claim to the land. In most cases the trees are cut down simply as vandalism, but the Civil Administration suspects that at Adei Ad, those uprooting the trees are also thieves - the trees are taken to the outpost and replanted there. The administration has demanded that the settlers (who deny all charges) replant the trees in the place from which they were taken; if the settlers do not meet this request, the Civil Administration will take action to restore the trees.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/874152.html

 

[tangentlama]

A group of Israeli settlers set on fire a wide agricultural land that belongs to Palestinian farmers from the village of Tiqua, east of Bethlehem on Friday afternoon. The settlers are believed to be of the nearby Tiqua settlement, which is built on land confiscated from the Tiqua village.

The village council of Tiqua declared that serious damage resulted from the fires, and that sheep farms and olive trees were all lost.

Around 300 dunams of land, (72 Acres) were destroyed, causing a serious financial crisis for the villagers as some 400 olive trees were completely burned. Almost 80 percent of the residents of Tiqua depend on agriculture as their main source of income.

Similar to other Israeli settlements in the West Bank, the Bethlehem area settlements, do not only occupy land seized by force from Palestinians, but also control the water resources in the area. Palestinians buy their water from an Israeli company, and pay 8 times the amount an Israeli settler would pay.

http://www.imemc.org/article/49131

 

[tangentlama]

Settlers return olive trees stolen from Palestinian-owned grove

By Yuval Azoulay, Haaretz Correspondent

Residents of the West Bank settlement outpost of Adei Ad began replanting hundreds of olive trees on Tuesday that they had uprooted from Palestinian lands last week.

The trees were returned to their Palestinian owner, a resident of Kafr Karyut, at the insistence of the Civil Administration. After the farmer complained that some 300 of his trees had been stolen by settlers, the Civil Administration investigated and found that not only had the trees been stolen, but some of them had been replanted in Adei Ad or along the access road to the outpost. It then ordered the settlers to return the trees by on Tuesday.

The settlers prepared the ground at Kafr Karyut for the replanting, laid the infrastructure for an irrigation system, and replanted the first few trees.

"We are dealing with this incident in a focused manner ensuring that the land's Palestinian owner can access them freely, and we are in constant contact with him," a source in the Civil Administration said Tuesday. "We are continuing to monitor the issue and the implementation of our instructions."

Pinhas Wallerstein, chairman of the Benjamin Regional Council where Adei Ad is located, said that the settlers agreed to replant the trees in order to avoid a confrontation with the security forces, but continue to insist that the trees are actually Jewish-owned.

"This is an olive grove near the settlement of Ahiya that has been worked for years by employees and relatives of Yossi Shukar, who died a few months ago," Wallerstein said.

Since the trees bore no fruit this year, he continued, the family decided it was a good time to move them, and at the request of Adei Ad residents, they agreed to let some of the trees be replanted there. Nevertheless, in order to avoid a clash with the Civil Administration, the family later agreed to restore them to their original location, Wallerstein said.

A senior Civil Administration source responded that the agency investigated the claim that the grove was owned by Jews, but concluded that the land was in fact Palestinian-owned.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/875413.html

 

[moono]

An informative article on Palestinian olive groves.

http://www.american.edu/TED/ice/olive-tree.htm




The 'settler' method of harvesting;

 

[Tankus]

well ..they are now saved as the no longer honerable (as of 3pm today) Rev Cheesy will now be on the case full time

you may be out of a soapbox soon moono ....! arf

dont hold yer breath ..!

 

[moono]

Yo tankus. Are you doing the rounds celebrating Bliar's new 'job' as spokesman for The Hydra ?

 

[Tankus]

bit of luck....... someone will get lucky ...far more chances of that happening in the middle east .....

I am almost moist in expectation

 

[moono]

Well, he might cop a mortar shell whilst playing billiards in the Greed Zone.

I see that the Palestinian opinion has come in. 'Load of Rubbish'.

 

[ZAMB]

The 'other' Jewish POV, which, unfortunately, is mostly drowned out by the Zionists.

Israel is Bad for Jewish Ethics
By SAUL LANDAU
You can trace the current Middle East conflicts back to Moses, who was deaf. God said: "Moses, take your people to Canada." Moses heard Canaan.

One group of religious Jews believes Israel is anathema to Jewish ethics. On June 10, a group of Naturei Karta (Guardians of the City) joined a demonstration in Washington DC to protest the Israeli occupation of Palestine and of Syria's Golan Heights. Back in October 2005, Neturei Karta leader Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss had made the group's position clear about Israel and the Zionist movement. "The Zionists use the Holocaust issue to their benefit. We, Jews who perished in the Holocaust, do not use it to advance our interests. We stress that there are hundreds of thousands of Jews around the world who identify with our opposition to the Zionist ideology and who feel that Zionism is not Jewish, but a political agenda...What we want is not a withdrawal to the '67 borders, but to everything included in it, so the country can go back to the Palestinians and we could live with them ... "

Two years ago, I talked to one of the men in black suits, with black hats and the traditional curls of the Hassidic Jews--but they are not Hassidic.

"How can the ethics of Judaism be practiced by corrupt state officials, and most are corrupt in most governments?" He said this before the July 2006 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, meaning before the revelation that the then head of the Israeli army, General Dan Halutz, was busy selling off his stock portfolio on the morning of the invasion for fear that prices would plunge. In addition, as Israel prepared to go to war, two Cabinet officials were charged with pinching the butts of young women staff members.

"Do you realize, that a man who calls himself a Jew," he continued, "gave orders to Israeli young men and women in the army or police to kill Palestinian civilians, to break their bones [referring to Labor Party Defense Minister, Yitzhak Rabin, who in 1989 urged Israeli soldiers to break the bones of Palestinian demonstrators]. Is such behavior compatible with our ethics? With morality on any level? As long as Israel exists as a state, Jewish men and women will commit unpardonable sins and pollute the religion for future generations. Israeli has fomented a pernicious lobby in the United States and its equivalent in Europe to tell the non-Jewish public that it is a democratic David fighting a fanatical Goliath. This is a lie. No Messiah will ever return to such a terrible place. A state of Israel can exist only after the Messiah Returns."

http://www.counterpunch.org/landau06302007.html

 

[tangentlama]

ZAMB, you seem unable to discuss the topic - this thread is for news of, and specfic discussion about the nature of Jewish Settler Violence in Occupied Palestine, not about Neturei Karta. Please stick to the topic. If you want to discuss religious Jewish positions on Israel as a nation-state in general, then make a new thread please.

The 'other' view is not 'mostly drowned out' - there are a whole host of Israeli-Palestinian organisations who have complete freedom of speech to profess their opposition to the complicity of the Israeli govt. and the support both financial and ideological by overseas Zionist groups (majority Christian) for the continued occupation of the West Bank by Jewish settlers. The majority view in Israel of the Settler movement is wholly against their presence, and this is also true of the majority of American Jewish groups too. For example, this, from Israeli Human Rights organisation, B'tselem in Octobre 2006: "On October 26, 2006, Hashem al-'Aza, one of the last remaining Palestinian residents of Tel Rumeida, set off to harvest his olive trees. The settlers, who view his property as their own, came to stop him." )

Tel Rumeida is a hotspot of Settler violence - for decades the Settler Movement has wrought a cruel and continuous 'war' to force Palestinians to leave. Approx. 1 year ago, Tel Rumeida made mainstream news after a clip of a Jewish Settler woman abusing Palestinians in their own homes surfaced on You Tube. You can view the cataglogue of abuse here: http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...e_uploaded&search_category=0&search=Search&v=

Read more about the Project in Tel Rumeida here: http://www.telrumeidaproject.org
Read a report from May 2007 showing a typical Settler attack (mild in comparison with some of the others): http://www.ellenogrady.com/2007/tel-rumeida-2/