Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by hash tag, Jun 24, 2016.

  1. Smokeandsteam

    Smokeandsteam Well-Known Member

    The power of the constructed narrative of the 70's is fascinating. There is absolutely no doubt that those, like my dad, who lived it often remember it wrongly and it's wholly due to this constructed narrative. The creation of a 'crisis', using the cyclical slowdown of the economic model of the previous 25 years, sparking popular fears of a return to the poverty of the years before and after the second world war was and is for that generation still imagined as real. I do wonder what it means for those aged under 40 though. They've never lived through a period where unions were held to enjoy too much power for example.
     
    tim and SpookyFrank like this.
  2. chilango

    chilango Neither Westminster nor Brussels....

    Quite.

    In a row the other my Mum was going on about "the Unions" being to blame for all kinds of ills.

    My exasperated response was that it was 50 bloody years ago.
     
  3. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model every man and every woman is a star

    except for the 1980s

    and it's a theme to which the tories periodically return
     
    Badgers and agricola like this.
  4. Smokeandsteam

    Smokeandsteam Well-Known Member

    Around 96% of employers in Britain experienced zero strike action in the 1970's. Heath and Wilson legislated against the unions and the social contract was being disassembled throughout a period when job losses were increasing. None of this you'd know from reading popular histories of the period.

    The Thatcher histories on TV this year have all emphasised her leadership against the prevailing crises of the period without asking first if they were actually real or constructed.
     
  5. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy Arsed

    My mum and dad had a massive row once about the 1970s which involved my dad repeatedly shouting 'how many dead bodies did you see on the street then eh'
     
  6. Smokeandsteam

    Smokeandsteam Well-Known Member

    But with diminishing returns as you move down the generations? I don't know and would be interested to hear what others think
     
  7. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model every man and every woman is a star

    i think it's very hard for anyone below the age of say 45 to remember large scale industrial action of the level of wapping or the miners strike, great industrial conflicts. so while people born in 1979 would have lived through the period in which union power was curbed, they would be unlikely to recall those struggles or the passage of the laws. in some ways the nearest in (fairly) recent years has been the student protests of 2010
     
  8. agricola

    agricola a genuine importer of owls

    Trump is going to stop the flow of information to Putin by cutting Corbyn out of the loop:

     
  9. mx wcfc

    mx wcfc Well-Known Member

  10. scifisam

    scifisam feck! arse! girls! drink!

    One of the best lines from that is:

    No. That means he was saying it was Russia but he can't actually say that outright because it would create a diplomatic incident.
     
    Dom Traynor and agricola like this.
  11. killer b

    killer b Minimum Waste / Maximum Joy

    would it?
     
  12. Riklet

    Riklet procrastinación

    Surely the diplomatic incident is not nasty mean words but a Russian hit squad bringing in several vials of nerve agent and then attempting to assassinate a former spy, leading to 2 near deaths, then abandoning one of the weapons in public (leading to a future death) and then brazenly lying about it.

    Its this kind of political caution which doesnt make Corbyn look good.
     
    LynnDoyleCooper likes this.
  13. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    I don't think it would. I think he just doesn't want to say it because of 1) years of conspiracy thought on his own part and 2) lots of his more vocal labour member supporters being russia freaks. Time after time with regards to russian enabled chemical attacks by the regime in syria he refuses to say who he feels is guilty and says it's for the UN. Knowing full well that russia has (until a few months ago anyway) vetoed investigations being able to name the guilty. And when they do come back with their findings, suggesting as far as possible - under their then remit - that the regime did it/them, we don't hear another word. Until they do it again and he starts the whole charade all over again. He talks repeatedly of fair process but never ever deals with the findings of that process. It's just lefty sounding rhetoric stuck in the cold war.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  14. teqniq

    teqniq DisMembered

    Yeah I've said it before in one way or another but this is one major thing that really bothers me about foriegn policy under a prospective Labout government with Corbyn at the head. Foriegn policy you say? Aren't there enough domestic ills to deal with that they may have the solution for? All well and good but enabling war criminals the likes of Putin, the Iranians and and last but not least, Assad is something I am not prepared to buy into. I took Emilly Thornberry to task over some completely ill-informed bollox wrt to things in Syria a couple of years ago on Twitter, not that I expected a reply and I got trolled by a bunch of rabid Assadists for my pains.
     
  15. Mation

    Mation real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold

    This might be of interest, if you haven't read it already:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. William of Walworth

    William of Walworth Festographer

    I'd like to read that :)
    Andy Beckett's book on the 70s was also pretty informative :)
     
    Mation likes this.
  17. Smokeandsteam

    Smokeandsteam Well-Known Member

    I’d recommend this:

    Reassessing 1970s Britain - Research, The University of York

    The book has a series of essays by those influential in generating and disseminating new ideas in the 1970s to reflect on key texts and arguments in which they were closely involved during that decade. These are then debated with historians.

    Stuart Holland’s essay on Labour’s Alternative Economic Strategy is particularly interesting in terms of how Labour was pushed, and pushed itself, to the right in terms of its thinking and policy formulation on state intervention and management of the economy. A timely story. It’s also brilliantly revealing of how being opposed to the EU was once an integral position of a left that had ambition to build a politics it recognised were incompatible with the European Project that was busy cutting jobs and rolling back the state

    The essays on the construction of declinist narratives are also well worth reading.
     
  18. William of Walworth

    William of Walworth Festographer

    'Liked' for the historical interest of reading a book of that kind (if I ever manage to get around to it :oops: )
    I might be remain-minded in general, but I try to be fairminded -- especially about historical perspective.
     
  19. brogdale

    brogdale Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism

    No official party position for an 'in/out' European referendum?
    Corbyn going right back to 1975.
     
  20. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

  21. Smokeandsteam

    Smokeandsteam Well-Known Member

    Not quite. The policy as of yesterday is to negotiate a deal first. Under Labour's formulation, they would go off to the EU and ask for a deal that the EU know will be up against remain in a Referendum. In those circumstances it would be barmy for the EU to offer up anything remotely enticing given it'll be up against their preferred option.

    On the surface Labour now looks centrist on this, given the massive LD error, but the policy is bollocks. And it'll increasingly be exposed as bollocks once it leaves the Labour bubble to face reality.
     
  22. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

    Most of Labour's position has already been negotiated with them.

    "a new customs union with the EU; a close single market relationship; and guarantees of workers’ rights and environmental protections"

    Of course the question remains of what a 'new' customs union actually means, and there should be a No Deal option in any referendum, imo, but it's wrong to say that te work still has to be done, it overwhelmingly already has been.
     
  23. Smokeandsteam

    Smokeandsteam Well-Known Member

    To suggest that a new customs union is a trifling detail is well wide of the mark. It is the defining point of the remain argument - that there would be economic doom outside of it. But of course, things that Labour want to do in office are prevented by the rules of the union. I suggest that as night follows day Labour's deal will be the current rules v remain. A Hobson's Choice.
     
  24. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

    I didn't suggest a new customs union was a 'trifling thing', why you have to make so many things up is beyond me.
     
  25. Smokeandsteam

    Smokeandsteam Well-Known Member

    No, you said the work was 'overwhelmingly already done'. Which is wrong.
     
  26. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

    So you agree you were wrong, that's a start.

    Now please expand upon what you are actually now saying is wrong.
     
  27. Smokeandsteam

    Smokeandsteam Well-Known Member

    You stated "but it's wrong to say that te work still has to be done, it overwhelmingly already has been".

    That's not accurate. In fact it's a nonsense.

    Once the work does begin it is inevitable that the EU will give Labour either nothing or next to nothing as their interests lie in British people rejecting the deal in a referendum. Everyone, including Labour, know this.

    Given the growing body of academic work on working class leaver motivations Labour, under their 'policy', far from moving closer to large swathes of the class it professes to speak for is moving further away and continuing a long process of political alienation between the party and the class.

    Hope that is easy enough for you to understand.
     
  28. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

    Of course, drivel is always easy to understand.

    You tried the 'growing body of academic work;' argument yesterday, but couldn't answer at all on why your latest evidence was so thoroughly flawed (poor methodology and inconsistency within its reporting, for two). You also ignore its conclusion that Corbyn was actually reversing that alienation (it was at the end, so maybe you didn't get that far).

    And, still, all you can do is repeat your claim, rather than evidence it. Maybe you're right, but you have to shot it not just say it. Come on, give us more than bluster for once.
     
  29. Smokeandsteam

    Smokeandsteam Well-Known Member

    In terms of your first point: the journal article I linked to yesterday is situated in a much wider and growing body of work - cited in the report - examining working class leaver motivations. What is the pattern? That neolberalism and working class political alienation are the dominant factors. That race was a factor but not the dominant factor. That the grievances that propelled the vote are not being addressed. That attitudes are hardening.

    Now let's turn to your second point. There is some evidence it is true that Corbyn and Labour were beginning to engage with this. But Corbyn started from a position of a 'People's Brexit' and has been pushed and pushed to a new position of a second referendum with remain or an inevitably shit deal as the options on the paper. How, do you think that plays out in these communities? The answer, in case you are still struggling, is disastrously.

    Finally, let's enquire further into your claim that the Labour deal is basically done bar agreeing a new customs union. There are two scenarios:

    1. Labour will sign up lock, stock and barrel to a May style deal and present this as the best achievable. Given that Labour has rejected May's deal three times this could prove problematic.
    2. Labour negotiate a deal of their own - with the EU knowing whatever they agree to will be up against remain in a a referendum.

    In neither scenario does your clam - that a deal is basically done - appear remotely sane.
     
  30. Smokeandsteam

    Smokeandsteam Well-Known Member

    Talking of which in the last week you've claimed:

    1. Labour has an iron grip on the Parliamentary game playing
    2. That there is no threat to Corbyn from the processes unleashed by Labour right wingers, Tory remainers, Swinsone etc
    3. Labour's EU deal is basically done.

    To be fair to you that's not drivel. It's delusional gibberish.
     

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