IWCA in the North

[LLETSA]

Okay then

Or they could have said there are several groups doing stuff, and there have been union struggles too. But 'they don't like to admit it' because that would be admitting their 'strategy is flawed'.

There are several groups doing stuff, and there have been union struggles too.

 

[hibee]

Tho the IWCA's approach is more based on that of Sinn Fein I would suggest.

Certainly this makes sense in terms of the political links of people behind the IWCA (I speak not as a member with insider knowledge, just as someone who's read up on them via the internet).

While not everything about Sinn Fein's community politics is 100% positive or indeed transferable outside republican communities, its strategy of grassroots activity is obviously a world away from Liberals deigning to come down from on high and benificently write letters about blocked drains. Because the latter approach makes no attempt to alter the structure of society or see responding to local concerns as anything other than a mechanism for getting Lib Dems elected.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Or they could have said there are several groups doing stuff, and there have been union struggles too. But 'they don't like to admit it' because that would be admitting their 'strategy is flawed'.

What is doing 'stuff' excatly or is it part of the EP Thompson tradition that you have hijacked like a dandy highwayman.

 

[soulman]

Certainly this makes sense in terms of the political links of people behind the IWCA (I speak not as a member with insider knowledge, just as someone who's read up on them via the internet).

While not everything about Sinn Fein's community politics is 100% positive or indeed transferable outside republican communities, its strategy of grassroots activity is obviously a world away from Liberals deigning to come down from on high and benificently write letters about blocked drains. Because the latter approach makes no attempt to alter the structure of society or see responding to local concerns as anything other than a mechanism for getting Lib Dems elected.

We're talking about the Liberal Party when it was slightly more radical. If I remember rightly there were occasions when direct action was used. Picketing the town hall, blocking roads and probably some other things as well. It doesn't sound very radical now but it seemed so at the time.

I agree about SF's community politics not being 100% transferrable. In fact there must be quite a lot of it that isn't relevant to say Oxford where the IWCA have had some success. The social and political conditions are very different to those in Ireland at the time when SF's strategy was developed. So I'm guessing, and it is only a guess, that the IWCA are picking what they think is relevant from the SF strategy, adopting it and using it to further their political representation of sections of the community at local government level.

I think that can be compared to how the Liberals used a similar strategy to further their political representation at local level.

 

[LLETSA]

What is doing 'stuff' excatly or is it part of the EP Thompson tradition that you have hijacked like a dandy highwayman.

Madazza Attica sounds like he's done plenty of 'stuff' in his time.

 

[LLETSA]

I agree about SF's community politics not being 100% transferrable. In fact there must be quite a lot of it that isn't relevant to say Oxford where the IWCA have had some success. The social and political conditions are very different to those in Ireland at the time when SF's strategy was developed. So I'm guessing, and it is only a guess, that the IWCA are picking what they think is relevant from the SF strategy, adopting it and using it to further their political representation of sections of the community at local government level.

You don't have to guess at anything-it's all explained on the national website, while there are several local sites which show how the organisation operates in communities.

 

[liampreston]

We're talking about the Liberal Party when it was slightly more radical..... (snip)

Brief off-track anecode. Yesterday I was in Lancaster on a LibDem action day, including a not-that-bad few hours trying to get signatures from people against the planned merger of Lancashire Constabulary with neighbouring forces.

A man walked up to me, shaking his head; "Right, the thing is, I'm an anarchist. And I can't believe, in all honesty, that the Liberals, the only radical party with a chance of power, are trying to save the police force. I'd get rid up 'em all!"

And off he trotted. Ah well, can't get them all, eh? =) =D

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Cheers for an honest answer. But I think the idea that the IWCA have created a new strategy isn't really the case. The Liberals used the same sort of grassroots type organising during the 1970s and early 1980s. Knocking on doors, listening to what people had to say and then campaigning on those issues at a local level to gain council seats. It certainly gives people the idea that they're being listened to but in reality all it did was empower some Liberal councillors who used it as a stepping stone to national politics and to realising their ambition of becoming an MP.

I'm not saying the IWCA councillors have the same ambitions (I don't know them) but using the same strategy suggests a desire for a similar trajectory. I don't see how taking part in a local or national election process created to maintain the domination of capital and the state can be in any way beneficial to the working class.

Maybe I'm missing something.

The IWCA are an active day to day, week to week organisation composed of local working people. It's this day to day work that has brought then success and one of those successes has been the election locally of IWCA councillors, where local workers have decided to endorse this work rather than back Labour or the Lib Dems.

I would suggets the litmus test for the IWCA is the winning of the day to day issues not the getting elected. After the last by election there was a an interesting and informative discussion on the election result and one of the conclusions was that it was the day to day stuff that had to have priority.

Standing in elections imo is a tactical question and not one of principal.

In terms of the tradition of local workers organising to tackle local issues then I think you can find better examples than the bloody Lib Dems whose political tradition and legacy includes the Isle of Dogs, Cyril Smith and the very right wing pre Militant Council in Liverpool. Even in the North West where they are gaining a toe hold their record in Stockport for example includes closure of the local swimming baths in one of the most deprived ares, the closure of the local library in the second most deprived area and the recent clisore of something like ten primary schools.

The CP campaigns for local housing in the thirties and fourties are a much better example imo. The recent defend local Council Housing campaigns and the campaigns against gentrification are issues that the Lid Dems wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

 

[cockneyrebel]

The CP campaigns for local housing in the thirties and fourties are a much better example imo.

Anyone got any links to more info on this?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

While not everything about Sinn Fein's community politics is 100% positive or indeed transferable outside republican communities, its strategy of grassroots activity is obviously a world away from Liberals deigning to come down from on high and benificently write letters about blocked drains.

Well yes, Sinn Fein are a lot more likely to smash nails into the ankles of teenagers for a start. Thuggery and religious sectarianism aside, I wouldn't say there is all that much difference between SF's variant of clientelism and that of the Liberals.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Anyone got any links to more info on this?

I thought you had me on ignore!

 

[cockneyrebel]

I wanted to see what you were saying about the IWCA....

So you got any links?

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I wanted to see what you were saying about the IWCA....

So you got any links?

No.I picked this up mainly from talking to older local CP members when I was in Harlesden and from bits and bobs in books and articles. But there is some reference to this in Our Flag stays Red by Phil Piratin when the CP were organsing against evictions in the East End.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Same with me, mainly heard it from my grandparents and their friends. Whatever the criticisms of the CP they did seem to do some genuinely good "bread and butter" campaigns.

I think they did quite a big campaign around food prices after the rationing was getting taken away.

 

[belboid]

the Piratin & the Joe Jacobs books are the main sources i know for that kinda thing. There will be something in the more official early histories as well.

 

[Herbert Read]

Im a one man IWCA

I wish people would stop mocking the IWCA its a real attempt to help the working class manage there own poverty, while creating a new layer of community leaders to moderate struggle. Im a 100% behind it.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I wish people would stop mocking the IWCA its a real attempt to help the working class manage there own poverty, while creating a new layer of community leaders to moderate struggle. Im a 100% behind it.

The only person 'mocking' seems to be you Herbie and you are 100 years behind not 100%.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

The IWCA are an active day to day, week to week organisation composed of local working people. It's this day to day work that has brought then success and one of those successes has been the election locally of IWCA councillors, where local workers have decided to endorse this work rather than back Labour or the Lib Dems.

I would suggets the litmus test for the IWCA is the winning of the day to day issues not the getting elected. After the last by election there was a an interesting and informative discussion on the election result and one of the conclusions was that it was the day to day stuff that had to have priority.

Standing in elections imo is a tactical question and not one of principal.

In terms of the tradition of local workers organising to tackle local issues then I think you can find better examples than the bloody Lib Dems whose political tradition and legacy includes the Isle of Dogs, Cyril Smith and the very right wing pre Militant Council in Liverpool. Even in the North West where they are gaining a toe hold their record in Stockport for example includes closure of the local swimming baths in one of the most deprived ares, the closure of the local library in the second most deprived area and the recent clisore of something like ten primary schools.

The CP campaigns for local housing in the thirties and fourties are a much better example imo. The recent defend local Council Housing campaigns and the campaigns against gentrification are issues that the Lid Dems wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

In both Rochdale and Liverpool, the LibDems are selling off the libraries.

The CP did campaign hard on community issues, where it didn't conflict with their international subservience to Moscow - in Oxford there is the famous story of how they led a mass campaign that tried to knock down the 'Cutteslowe Wall' between a council estate and a private estate.

 

[Harold Hill]

I wish people would stop mocking the IWCA its a real attempt to help the working class manage there own poverty, while creating a new layer of community leaders to moderate struggle. Im a 100% behind it.

Take a day off.

 

[rednblack]

Take a day off.

or the next 60 years

 

[hibee]

I wish people would stop mocking the IWCA its a real attempt to help the working class manage there own poverty, while creating a new layer of community leaders to moderate struggle. Im a 100% behind it.

You're about as funny as a burning pet shop

 

[LLETSA]

Take a day off.

Or a big fucking bottle of laxative.

 

[soulman]

The IWCA are an active day to day, week to week organisation composed of local working people. It's this day to day work that has brought then success and one of those successes has been the election locally of IWCA councillors, where local workers have decided to endorse this work rather than back Labour or the Lib Dems.

I would suggets the litmus test for the IWCA is the winning of the day to day issues not the getting elected. After the last by election there was a an interesting and informative discussion on the election result and one of the conclusions was that it was the day to day stuff that had to have priority.

Standing in elections imo is a tactical question and not one of principal.

In terms of the tradition of local workers organising to tackle local issues then I think you can find better examples than the bloody Lib Dems whose political tradition and legacy includes the Isle of Dogs, Cyril Smith and the very right wing pre Militant Council in Liverpool. Even in the North West where they are gaining a toe hold their record in Stockport for example includes closure of the local swimming baths in one of the most deprived ares, the closure of the local library in the second most deprived area and the recent clisore of something like ten primary schools.

The CP campaigns for local housing in the thirties and fourties are a much better example imo. The recent defend local Council Housing campaigns and the campaigns against gentrification are issues that the Lid Dems wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

I'm not talking about the Lib Dems I'm talking about the Liberal Party pre the merger and the strategy they had of using grassroots organising to further their political representation at local and then national level.

If I need to spell it out for you - I believe the working class were used by the Liberals to further political ambitions. I also believe that all politicians use the working class, making promises that are seldom if ever kept regardless of the initial intent. I say regardless because even if there is a desire to improve material conditions once that's translated into political representation at local or national level it's impossible to realise any concrete changes. The current political system was created to maintain the dominance of capital and the state and it doesn't allow for any permanent improvement in material conditions.

That's why I question the IWCA strategy, or as you prefer to call it tactic, of seeking to represent people within the current political structures.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I'm not talking about the Lib Dems I'm talking about the Liberal Party pre the merger and the strategy they had of using grassroots organising to further their political representation at local and then national level.

If I need to spell it out for you - I believe the working class were used by the Liberals to further political ambitions. I also believe that all politicians use the working class, making promises that are seldom if ever kept regardless of the initial intent. I say regardless because even if there is a desire to improve material conditions once that's translated into political representation at local or national level it's impossible to realise any concrete changes. The current political system was created to maintain the dominance of capital and the state and it doesn't allow for any permanent improvement in material conditions.

That's why I question the IWCA strategy, or as you prefer to call it tactic, of seeking to represent people within the current political structures.

Well thanks for spelling it out to me. So in a nutshell: all 'politicians' are the same, the transition from feudalism and autocracy to capitalism and bourgeios democracy was a waste of time and despite ,for example, the fact that we live longer (even though their are vast diffrences still in class and mortality) that there has been no permanent improvement in material conditions. Ok if day to day reform is out of the window I will wait for the revolution. Have you got a date?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

What's his personal life got to do with it?

 

[Chuck Wilson]

What's his personal life got to do with it?

I had to read that several times to get the joke Donna!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Blimey. Have yourself a cup of coffee, man.

 

[soulman]

Well thanks for spelling it out to me. So in a nutshell: all 'politicians' are the same, the transition from feudalism and autocracy to capitalism and bourgeios democracy was a waste of time and despite ,for example, the fact that we live longer (even though their are vast diffrences still in class and mortality) that there has been no permanent improvement in material conditions. Ok if day to day reform is out of the window I will wait for the revolution. Have you got a date?

There's no denying that material conditions can change but you only have to look at the so called post war consensus on welfare to see concessions can be removed when it suits - it's impossible to realise any permanent changes using the current political system.

There's also no denying that statistics show that people are living longer subject to their class position in this country. The political response is to increase the retirement age so if we do live longer we will be expected to work longer.

The only viable alternative that I can see is for grassroots self-organisation in the community and workplace. A shift towards self-management that doesn't labour under the same old illusion that capital, the state and the current political structures have anything positive or permanent to offer.

 

[Streathamite]

The only viable alternative that I can see is for grassroots self-organisation in the community and workplace. A shift towards self-management that doesn't labour under the same old illusion that capital, the state and the current political structures have anything positive or permanent to offer.

errr....i'd have said the IWCA were very much about the first of these two sentences, and can see nothing in them to indicate a burning belief for or against the second proposition - they just seem to me to put issues before ideology and airy theorising.
which - seeing as just about every UK trot group has gone down the opposite route and got precisely fuck all for their pains - strikes me as quite sensible

 

[hibee]

There's no denying that material conditions can change but you only have to look at the so called post war consensus on welfare to see concessions can be removed when it suits - it's impossible to realise any permanent changes using the current political system.

True, but you make the same mistake as Sir Herbert in confusing a rigid adherence to the limits of the system (ie social democracy) with using some of the system's structures tactically as part of a broader campaign without regard to their limitations.

If you think that using these structures on whatever basis corrupts your soul then say so, because that's a very different argument.