Italians treatment of Roma people

[nino_savatte]

You are attacking a country (Italy) and an entire nation (Italians) - some 56 million people - for something that I have proven to be a lie. I am not taing about your defence of the Rrom race - only Italians. Your continuing to try justifying your attack on all Italians is beyond belief. It is the attitude of someone with the attitude toward race and nations that you attack other for having.

You have absolutely no idea of my political stance - in fact, you have no idea of my racial background either. You attack to defend you own, indefensible position and by so doing, undermine any shred of moral high ground that you might otherwise be able to occupy by attacking racialists and racial stereotypes. It is a shame you cannot see this for yourself. Really.

I'm not "attacking Italians" and I challenge you to find a post where I have.

You have absolutely no idea of my political stance - in fact, you have no idea of my racial background either.

Why? Is your "racial" background germane to this discussion? Furthermore, where did I make any mention of your 'race'? You seem rather keen to make presumptions.

 

[nino_savatte]

The opposition aren't happy either.

The centre-left opposition, led by Democratic Party leader Walter Veltroni, said Maroni had only got the measures approved by Europe after watering it down at the insistence of his party and of the Catholic Church.

This is interesting

Critics have said that in a country that already has several different police forces, including the military-run Carabinieri, the measure amounted to a publicity stunt that merely caused criminals to move elsewhere.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ingerprint-immigrants-in-crime-crackdown.html

 

[chazegee]

The problem for the Romani, is that they don't have a nation state to protect their interests isn't it? and it's not as if they have the power and influence to have one created vis a vis Israel.
That being said, I imagine a Romani state being set up in India would be even more unpopular with it's neighbors than Israel is.

 

[nino_savatte]

The problem for the Romani, is that they don't have a nation state to protect their interests isn't it? and it's not as if they have the power and influence to have one created vis a vis Israel.
That being said, I imagine a Romani state being set up in India would be even more unpopular with it's neighbors than Israel is.

They've been hammered for centuries by European states, all of which marginalised them along with their Jewish populations. I don't think there is a demand for a homeland among the Roma community.

 

[Bang to Rights]

The photographer that took the photograph published throughout the world, Alessandro Garofalo, who works for il mattino in napoli, was disgusted that the only photograph that was used was the one showing a couple in the distance, looking sad and uncomfoirtable. He took many other photographs that show that the press - including the Guardian and Independent - were not at all truthful in their presentation of this "story".

As I've already stated, that was my impression from the very beginning.

Thank you for confirming my suspicions. My faith in humanity still stands! ..... albeit those working for the press ...

 

[Jeff Robinson]

My agenda, as you like to call it, is to defend a nation of highly intelligent people from your extraordinarily ignorant attacks.

"Highly intelligent"? Don't make me laugh. If Italians were so intelligent they'd hardly keep voting for the same mafioso media tycoon crook again and a again (“I won’t be a corrupt, authoritarian fuck against honest”). I’ve been there and it’s the most ignorant and backward dump I’ve seen in my life full of ridiculously stuck up fashionista pricks, Mussolini groupies, testosterone fueled ferrari driving dicks with slicked back hair and shades worth more than the annual rent on my flat etc.

We can read for outselves about the condition of the Roma from organizations like UNICEF and Amnesty international thanks very much.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Program starting in a few minutes on radio 4 which will probably confirm my analysis...

 

[chazegee]

I’ve been there and it’s the most ignorant and backward dump I’ve seen in my life full of ridiculously stuck up fashionista pricks, Mussolini groupies, testosterone fueled ferrari driving dicks with slicked back hair and shades worth more than the annual rent on my flat etc.

Well I went to the South on me Hols, and they were very nice, both Ethel and I thought so.

 

[nino_savatte]

Rolling back the years...

Supporters heralded Alemanno's win with fascist straight-arm salutes and enthusiastic calls of "Duce! Duce!" —the title that fascist dictator Benito Mussolini bestowed on himself. The new mayor has vowed to destroy all illegal Romani (gypsy) camps and to work toward the eradication of legal ones. He also promised to expel immediately all immigrants who have broken the law. Alemanno rode a wave of anti-immigrant sentiment fueled by the murder last year of a Roman housewife. A Romanian gypsy was arrested.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=946

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Well I went to the South on me Hols, and they were very nice, both Ethel and I thought so.

You may be right. I've only ever been to the North and that truly is a reactionary shithole. Northern League territory and that.

All me mates r in Sardinia @ the mo for the Sun and Bass festy. Kinda wish I was there.

 

[nino_savatte]

You may be right. I've only ever been to the North and that truly is a reactionary shithole. Northern League territory and that.

All me mates r in Sardinia @ the mo for the Sun and Bass festy. Kinda wish I was there.

Quite, the north is where the Liga Nord are based...and they're part of Berlusconi's right wing populist government.

 

[nino_savatte]

A Canadian human rights group is to present a dossier to the Euro Parliament and it isn't full of praise for Brillaintined One's government.

http://www.tolerance.ca/Article.aspx?ID=21428&L=fr

 

[Jeff Robinson]

A Canadian human rights group is to present a dossier to the Euro Parliament and it isn't full of praise for Brillaintined One's government.

http://www.tolerance.ca/Article.aspx?ID=21428&L=fr

In the Radio 4 docu yesterday an Italian journalist in Italy interviewed Italian politicians who openly and unashamably admitted to the fingerprinting of Roma. But apparently it's not happening because Nardini says so.

 

[nino_savatte]

In the Radio 4 docu yesterday an Italian journalist in Italy interviewed Italian politicians who openly and unashamably admitted to the fingerprinting of Roma. But apparently it's not happening because Nardini says so.

I think Nardini is living in a bubble or is wearing a pair of joke glasses because he/she even denies that this is official government policy on another thread.

What was the prog called? I'd like to hear it on the BBC iPlayer.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I think Nardini is living in a bubble or is wearing a pair of joke glasses because he/she even denies that this is official government policy on another thread.

What was the prog called? I'd like to hear it on the BBC iPlayer.

I just had a look and can't see it either. It was called summit like "The Health of Italian politics" or that. Twas on @ 5:00 pm radio 4. If I find it I'll post it up. The Italian journo had the decency to be throughly ashamed of her government .

 

[nino_savatte]

I just had a look and can't see it either. It was called summit like "The Health of Italian politics" or that. Twas on @ 5:00 pm radio 4. If I find it I'll post it up. The Italian journo had the decency to be throughly ashamed of her government .

Cheers.

There must be a lot of bitterly disappointed Italians who are embarrassed by the Greasy One and his cabinet of thugs.

 

[Fedayn]

"Highly intelligent"? Don't make me laugh. If Italians were so intelligent they'd hardly keep voting for the same mafioso media tycoon crook again and a again (“I won’t be a corrupt, authoritarian fuck against honest”). I’ve been there and it’s the most ignorant and backward dump I’ve seen in my life full of ridiculously stuck up fashionista pricks, Mussolini groupies, testosterone fueled ferrari driving dicks with slicked back hair and shades worth more than the annual rent on my flat etc.

Sweet fucking jesus..... What a pile of stereotyped shite.

We can read for outselves about the condition of the Roma from organizations like UNICEF and Amnesty international thanks very much.

Does that make Italians as a whole respoinsible or the policies and actions of the government?

 

[Fedayn]

Cheers.

There must be a lot of bitterly disappointed Italians who are embarrassed by the Greasy One and his cabinet of thugs.

"Highly intelligent"? Don't make me laugh. If Italians were so intelligent they'd hardly keep voting for the same mafioso media tycoon crook again and a again (“I won’t be a corrupt, authoritarian fuck against honest”). I’ve been there and it’s the most ignorant and backward dump I’ve seen in my life full of ridiculously stuck up fashionista pricks, Mussolini groupies, testosterone fueled ferrari driving dicks with slicked back hair and shades worth more than the annual rent on my flat etc.

You'll be sad to hear then that Italians who don't like Berlusconi don't exist apparently, well according to jeff robinson they don't. He's been there don't you know.....

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Sweet fucking jesus..... What a pile of stereotyped shite.



Does that make Italians as a whole respoinsible or the policies and actions of the government?

Oh dear, you didn't get it did you?

If you're so outraged by stereotyping maybe you could redirect your fury at the Italian Government for the fingerprinting and scapegoating of an entire ethnic group and the fact that an Italian on this site denies and apologies for this.

And while your at it how about learning the difference between reality and shit wot happens on the internet and that.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Actually on reflection sorry for having a pop Fedayn, I don't have any beef with you.

Unless you're Italian that is

 

[Fedayn]

Oh dear, you didn't get it did you?

If you're so outraged by stereotyping maybe you could redirect your fury at the Italian Government for the fingerprinting and scapegoating of an entire ethnic group and the fact that an Italian on this site denies and apologies for this.

And while your at it how about learning the difference between reality and shit wot happens on the internet and that.

Well what little I can do from Glasgow I do, as do mates of mine in Rome. Funnily enough all of them solidly anti-Berlusconi and a few members of the PRC. But hey they're just Italians and slick haired ferrarri driving pricks.

I don't think Nardini has denied what Berlusconi and co are doing. What he did do was show the fuller story behind the two dead children. Neither do I think he justified or condoned the horror behind this story.

Well reality isn't your forte so don't be offended if yours is advice I ignore.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Fedayn - you feeling alright after your recent quadruple irony bypass?

Nino - "So has Berlusconi ordered the fingerprinting of the Roma or not?"

Nardini replies - "No, he hasn't."

There, that right there is who you're defending Fedayn.

 

[likesfish]

listened to that radio 4 programme Italy has a lot more problems than just a few roma
its not like here Richard branson could become pm yet

 

[Fedayn]

Fedayn - you feeling alright after your recent quadruple irony bypass?

Nino - "So has Berlusconi ordered the fingerprinting of the Roma or not?"

Nardini replies - "No, he hasn't."

There, that right there is who you're defending Fedayn.

That wasn't irony, it was simpering anti-Italian shite.

Well, from what i've read he's wrong, very wrong. I missed it my fault, unlike your snidey attempts at irony i'm prepared to say I got it wrong.

 

[Fedayn]

Trouble is with his attempts to clear the camps and the fingerprinting of the Roma Berlusconi has tapped into a few issues within Italian, not unlike other European countries, and an issue which still has echoes in Roman society. Whilst there is alot of criticism of his fingerprinting there is a 'reluctant' support for his attempts, if not his methods, to clear the camps. Alot of Romans still remember the 'Bidoneville' (literally 'bin city') that still existed in the late 60's early 70's in and around Rome. The poverty and appalling slums that they were in reality seem, to many Italians, to be returning with the gypsy camps. And intertwined with a rather appalling anti Roma/Sinti sentiment it's a heady mix for some. Of course for those on the Left the issue is that the people living there should be regularised and allowed to move into the city and get housing like all other citizens. Obviously, despite his rhetoric, that's not Berlusconi's intention.

 

[Roadkill]

Whining there are no open meadows where they could legally park there caravans is bullshit its the 21st century times change. Theres nothing traditional about a white van or 4x4

What, so people's traditions are only to be accepted so long as they stick rigidly to them and don't move on in the slightest? What a bizarre thing to say.

No, he [Berlusconi, or rather his government] hasn't [introduced the fingerprinting of the country's Roma population].

Then why has the European Parliament condemned it as a direct act of racial discrimination? And why has the Foreign Minister not denied that it's happening, but rather dismissed objections to it as "politically motivated and based on prejudices" against the country? I know the European Commission has since accepted that the fingerprinting is not illegal, but that's not saying much, is it? Especially when it comes from a cosy clique like the EC.

"Highly intelligent"? Don't make me laugh. If Italians were so intelligent they'd hardly keep voting for the same mafioso media tycoon crook again and a again (“I won’t be a corrupt, authoritarian fuck against honest”). I’ve been there and it’s the most ignorant and backward dump I’ve seen in my life full of ridiculously stuck up fashionista pricks, Mussolini groupies, testosterone fueled ferrari driving dicks with slicked back hair and shades worth more than the annual rent on my flat etc.

Yes, and we elected a 'Labour' government that went further to the right than the Tories would ever have dared to go and launched an illegal and disastrous war against Iraq, among other things, after which we voted them in for a third time.

The Berlusconi government is a crock of shit, but so is ours, and I imagine you'd be most upset to be talked of in the way you've just described Italians solely on that basis.

 

[nino_savatte]

Trouble is with his attempts to clear the camps and the fingerprinting of the Roma Berlusconi has tapped into a few issues within Italian, not unlike other European countries, and an issue which still has echoes in Roman society. Whilst there is alot of criticism of his fingerprinting there is a 'reluctant' support for his attempts, if not his methods, to clear the camps. Alot of Romans still remember the 'Bidoneville' (literally 'bin city') that still existed in the late 60's early 70's in and around Rome. The poverty and appalling slums that they were in reality seem, to many Italians, to be returning with the gypsy camps. And intertwined with a rather appalling anti Roma/Sinti sentiment it's a heady mix for some. Of course for those on the Left the issue is that the people living there should be regularised and allowed to move into the city and get housing like all other citizens. Obviously, despite his rhetoric, that's not Berlusconi's intention.

The Italian government are claiming two things: first, the fingerprinting is necessary to 'reduce' crime and second, this policy will foster better integration of the Roma into Italian society. With regard to the latter, this policy appears to be designed to achieve the opposite. In regard to the former, presumably the Italian authorities see only the Roma as criminally inclined, yet their very own Prime Minister has managed to escape the law.

E2A: I think we could argue that the way in which the word "criminals" is being used by the Italian government is euphemistic.

 

[Fedayn]

The Italian government are claiming two things: first, the fingerprinting is necessary to 'reduce' crime and second, this policy will foster better integration of the Roma into Italian society. With regard to the latter, this policy appears to be designed to achieve the opposite. In regard to the former, presumably the Italian authorities see only the Roma as criminally inclined, yet their very own Prime Minister has managed to escape the law.

E2A: I think we could argue that the way in which the word "criminals" is being used by the Italian government is euphemistic.

Yes, it's a very nasty heady brew.

Roma in Italy

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes, it's a very nasty heady brew.

Roma in Italy

Aye.

Rome's mayor is unrepentant about fascism

In the interview, Alemanno condemned the racial laws passed by Benito Mussolini's regime in 1938, but when asked if he considered fascism "an absolute evil" the mayor took a softer stance.

"I don't think so and I never thought so: Fascism was a more complex phenomenon," Alemanno was quoted as saying by Corriere. "Many people joined it in good faith, and I don't feel like labeling them with that definition."

Alemanno added that "the racial laws enacted by fascism, which caused its political and cultural end, were the absolute evil."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/09/08/europe/EU-Italy-Fascism.php

 

[nino_savatte]

I've just seen this Time article.

Giorgio Napolitano, Italy's grandfatherly President, was trying not to squirm in his seat. But sitting center stage at a ceremony to honor World War II resistance fighters, the 83-year-old head of state couldn't help but wince as Defense Minister Ignazio La Russa shifted gears mid speech. "I would betray my conscience," La Russa declared, "if I did not recall other men in uniform."

Those "other men" were the fascist Italian troops allied with the Nazi occupiers. "From their point of view," La Russa said of the Nembo division, which served alongside the Germans in Rome, they "fought in the belief they were defending their country." La Russa's Sept. 8 speech was the second time in two days that a top leader of Italy's "post-fascist" National Alliance party — a key ally in Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's ruling coalition — had opened wounds that most Italians have considered closed for decades.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1839845,00.html

This is not a good sign.