Italians: Soviets tried to kill John Paul

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's hardly rocket science, the claims of US responsibility were almost the antithesis of the claims of Soviet responsibility.
The theory is that the US wanted destabilisation of the Catholic populations of the eastern Bloc (many devoted to JPII for his work with the underground priesthood in the eastern bloc), the cause of which would be the assassination of the pontiff by someone (Mr Agca) with known ties to the Bulgarian security apparatus (well-known for providing the USSR with many of it's finest assassins). The punchline being riot, unrest and possibly the same "domino effect" the USSR feared.

That's pretty twisted. The best organized and most coherent resistance to communism in those countries was the catholic church. JP was fomenting resistance to the USSR, enemy of the US.

With the pope in essence doing their job for them, why would the americans kill him and throw the organized catholic resistance into disarray?

And if they were going to do so, why would they work through the Bulgarian security apparatus?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Wow, well that's told me, hasn't it?

Well, it is a pretty lame conspiracy theory.

I suspect that even you don't really think that it holds any water.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's pretty twisted. The best organized and most coherent resistance to communism in those countries was the catholic church. JP was fomenting resistance to the USSR, enemy of the US.

With the pope in essence doing their job for them, why would the americans kill him and throw the organized catholic resistance into disarray?

Because destabilising the Catholics, making them believe that the Kremlin had planned and commissioned JPII's assassination would likely have caused shockwaves throughout the eastern bloc, causing the religious (including the Orthodox Christians) to rise up against the Soviets.

And if they were going to do so, why would they work through the Bulgarian security apparatus?

Sigh. The US wasn't.
Ali Agca's connection to Bulgarian intelligence was through his membership of and activities with the Turkish fascists, (also his connection to the CIA, given their funding of domestic rightwing networks throughout Europe and NATO members), covert. It was supposed to be "uncovered" as "proof" of the Soviet commissioning of the assassination, thereby sparking an uprising against "the evil empire".

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Because destabilising the Catholics, making them believe that the Kremlin had planned and commissioned JPII's assassination would likely have caused shockwaves throughout the eastern bloc, causing the religious (including the Orthodox Christians) to rise up against the Soviets.

Sigh. The US wasn't.
Ali Agca's connection to Bulgarian intelligence was through his membership of and activities with the Turkish fascists, (also his connection to the CIA, given their funding of domestic rightwing networks throughout Europe and NATO members), covert. It was supposed to be "uncovered" as "proof" of the Soviet commissioning of the assassination, thereby sparking an uprising against "the evil empire".

Of course...... it's all so simple!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, it is a pretty lame conspiracy theory.

I suspect that even you don't really think that it holds any water.

The thing is that unless this commission has unearthed any startling new evidence (which we'll know about soon enough), then in terms of evidence the balance is even for either explanation.

However, credibility is where the "the USSR did it" story has the edge.

 

[Lock&Light]

Of course...... it's all so simple!

Sorry, Johnny. I know you're trying to be nice. But it has to be called by it's true name. Simplistic.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The thing is that unless this commission has unearthed any startling new evidence (which we'll know about soon enough), then in terms of evidence the balance is even for either explanation.

.

So then: what are you drinking?

 

[rogue yam]

However, credibility is where the "the USSR did it" story has the edge.

Wow! I have to keep re-reading this to try to see what I've missed!

But really, how credible is it that the United States, under President Ronald Wilson Reagan (of blessed memory), would attack the Holy Father (also of blessed memory). Ronnie loved the Pope. So did millions upon millions of other Americans, not all of whom were Catholic. Our government and security agencies are filled with devout Catholics who loved the Pope, as is the Conservative movement which Pres. Reagan rode to the White House. We are a Christian nation. We don't kill Popes.

Now, communists on the other hand...

 

[vimto]

Now, communists on the other hand...

What about communists yam?

You got something to say?

 

[newharper]

Wow! I have to keep re-reading this to try to see what I've missed!

But really, how credible is it that the United States, under President Ronald Wilson Reagan (of blessed memory), would attack the Holy Father (also of blessed memory). Ronnie loved the Pope. So did millions upon millions of other Americans, not all of whom were Catholic. Our government and security agencies are filled with devout Catholics who loved the Pope, as is the Conservative movement which Pres. Reagan rode to the White House. We are a Christian nation. We don't kill Popes.

Now, communists on the other hand...

Like this guy.

" On April 27, 1997, Bishop Gerardi was killed the way 150,000 Guatemalans died -- hideously and mercilessly. His mutilated body was found 48 hours after this report was made public."

"about what happened to them during Guatemala's 36 year war--a war supported by U.S. military and political advisory monies. More than 1,646 Guatemalan military officers have graduated from the School of Americas including Colonel Julio Roberto Alpirez, who ordered the killing of U.S. citizen Michael Devine and Efraim Bamaca, husband of U.S. lawyer Jennifer Harbury."

http://www.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/r-5-murder.html

It would naturally remiss to forget,

"It was 20 years ago, on March 24 1980, that Oscar Romero was killed. No one was brought to trial and yesterday in "The Guardian" a story alleged that the CIA knew a great deal more about his killers than they admitted at the time but did not investigate.

Oscar Romero was a quiet and unassuming priest. In the turmoil of political upheaval in San Salvadore in 1977 he was seen as a safe, neutral choice."

""Like Jesus", he said, "The world that the church ought to serve is, for us, the world of the poor". For this and such simple truths he was denounced on TV as a terrorist."

"So today, in the churches calendar, Oscar Romero’s life is not mourned but celebrated: as a martyr for the faith, that is, a witness to authentic Christianity."

http://www.oxford.anglican.org/page/657/


Yup, commies.

 

[rogue yam]

What about communists yam?

You got something to say?

Sure. Communists are liars and murderers and sociopaths, down to the last man. Every last one of them. How's that?

 

[oi2002]

Good for them; so if al Qaida attacks the vatican, will that organization gain converts in Belfast as well?

My bretheren, who love christ, are washed in the blood of the lamb and in the true spirit of Christianity will skull fuck any heathen who disputes a single comma in the Bible are not likely to become Salafi.

 

[rogue yam]

Yup, commies.

So here's an idea: Why don't you simply express your ideas directly, using words. You know, just for a change...

 

[newharper]

So here's an idea: Why don't you simply express your ideas directly, using words. You know, just for a change...

Well ok;

Liar, fuckwit, retard.

I'm sure I've missed a couple of your choicest; but I'd imagine someone of your intellect can put the tissues down for long enough to fill in the blanks.

 

[rogue yam]

Well ok;

Liar, fuckwit, retard.

I'm sure I've missed a couple of your choicest; but I'd imagine someone of your intellect can put the tissues down for long enough to fill in the blanks.

Just as I suspected; you've got nothing.

 

[bluestreak]

i keep reading this as "soviets tried to kill john peel". that would make me mad.

as it is, i have no reason whatsoever to believe the italians, the former soviets and their current sympathisers, or anyone who says without releasing the evidence who tried to take potshots at JP. the americans are always game for a bit of assassination, as were the soviets, as are the italians, and indeed the catholics bumped off at least one pope last century cos he was too honest. they're all lynig murdering scum and most governments will kill anyone they think they can get away with to retain or increase power, or prevent anythign nasty getting out.

 

[vimto]

Sure. Communists are liars and murderers and sociopaths, down to the last man. Every last one of them. How's that?

Much the same as freepers and neo-cons perhaps?

 

[nino_savatte]

Much the same as freepers and neo-cons perhaps?

He's blind to this vimto...but then that's the way of the freeper: a life of denial.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wow! I have to keep re-reading this to try to see what I've missed!

But really, how credible is it that the United States, under President Ronald Wilson Reagan (of blessed memory), would attack the Holy Father (also of blessed memory). Ronnie loved the Pope. So did millions upon millions of other Americans, not all of whom were Catholic. Our government and security agencies are filled with devout Catholics who loved the Pope, as is the Conservative movement which Pres. Reagan rode to the White House. We are a Christian nation. We don't kill Popes.

Given your nation's history, and given what occurred during Cowboy Ron's own presidency (Cardinals, priests, nuns and believers slaughtered in Latin America by US-sponsored terrorists) then surely you realise you're talking nonsense?

perhaps not, you do exhibit a massive capacity for self-delusion.

Now, communists on the other hand...

That's right, much more likely to have been the boogeyman, isn't it?

 

[nino_savatte]

Given your nation's history, and given what occurred during Cowboy Ron's own presidency (Cardinals, priests, nuns and believers slaughtered in Latin America by US-sponsored terrorists) then surely you realise you're talking nonsense?

perhaps not, you do exhibit a massive capacity for self-delusion.

That's right, much more likely to have been the boogeyman, isn't it?

Ironic isn't it, that a country whose president claims to be Xtian is actually responsible for killing other Xtians. None of this was "terror" in Ron's mind, it was a "fight for freedom"...the freedom of the market to dictate terms to the poor.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Where did I make a value judgement about the church and the vatican?

Stop reading in things that aren't there, and just read what is.

Fair point, my mistake - but the general point still stands about the Vatican.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

My bretheren, who love christ, are washed in the blood of the lamb and in the true spirit of Christianity will skull fuck any heathen who disputes a single comma in the Bible are not likely to become Salafi.

Well, it's good to have something to believe in, I suppose.

 

[vimto]

So what's your point then Johnny?

Do you have a point?

 

[nino_savatte]

So what's your point then Johnny?

Do you have a point?

He has to 'win' the debate at any cost.

 

[Lock&Light]

He has to 'win' the debate at any cost.

That sounds more like you, nino, though you never do actually manage to 'win' the debate.

You will now, no doubt, call me all sort of nasty names, like VP also so often does, but that won't help you to 'win' the debate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That sounds more like you, nino, though you never do actually manage to 'win' the debate.

You will now, no doubt, call me all sort of nasty names, like VP also so often does, but that won't help you to 'win' the debate.

Nice.

Thought you'd get in a free cheap shot, did you?

Just about the sum of your worth really.

 

[Lock&Light]

Thought you'd get in a free cheap shot, did you?

You don't need to talk about cheap shots, mate. You can never reply to me without using them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You don't need to talk about cheap shots, mate. You can never reply to me without using them.

Always sinned against, never the sinner, are you?

 

[Lock&Light]

Always sinned against, never the sinner, are you?

You are the one within the glasshouse, throwing the stones.

 

[nino_savatte]

That sounds more like you, nino, though you never do actually manage to 'win' the debate.

You will now, no doubt, call me all sort of nasty names, like VP also so often does, but that won't help you to 'win' the debate.

Well that's where you're wrong, Locko me boyo, I actually do win debates and not by using cheap shots like Johnny Boy either. Whereas you never manage to debate anything with anyone; you prefer to snipe and post irrelevant replies which you think are intelligent and well thought out.

How about talking the talk for a change? When have you ever posted a link and commented on its contents? Never, to my recollection, so until you've actually got something to say that isn't based on your obvious hatred of me, keep schtum....or post something meaningful.

It's your choice, numbnuts.