Italian election

Discussion in 'world politics, current affairs and news' started by brogdale, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. Fedayn

    Fedayn Well-Known Member

    There is a certain merit in that if you look at the reasons why people voted for the 5Star Movement as opposed to the politics of the ex left Grillo. Grillo has already had to clampdown on his own party with 2 leading memebrs already expelled. One for bemoaning the lack of democracy and the other for appearing on a TV talk show. Interestingly and almost certainly deliberatley the last election rally was held in Piazza San Giovanni in Rome a square noted for being a Leftist rallying point.
  2. barney_pig

    barney_pig Po-cha-na-quar-hip

    Counterfeit are trumpeting grillo with an odd article that name checks fronte del uomo qualunque as a example, somehow missing that FUQ was a home for fascists post war.
    When I look at grillo I keep seeing D'Annunzio
  3. The39thStep

    The39thStep Well-Known Member

    Is it time for a British 5 star movement? You know the bit where Rodney fell through the bar?
    Random and articul8 like this.
  4. barney_pig

    barney_pig Po-cha-na-quar-hip

    But fatter, and without the style.
  5. ayatollah

    ayatollah Well-Known Member

    I have to admit complete shameful ignorance about Beppe Grillo's Five Star Movement, now the BIGGEST SINGLE "PARTY" in the lower house, Chamber of Deputies. An amazing result, and obviously a real sign of the febrile state of Italian politics . Beyond that facile observation, what else though ? The UK press are treating it all as a joke - presumeably they can't figure it out either from a capitalist perspective. It looks like a very shallowly political populist protest movement exploding out of nowhere - with all the usual tendancies to veer off in a collaborationist /nationalist direction as soon as the pressure of being courted by the state and other traditional parties is applied. Anyone, an Italian poster would be good, with a real handle on what the Five Star Movement actually represents, and the likely direction it will go in ?
  6. Idris2002

    Idris2002 Christmas eve, you know?

    My Italian colleague - third generation PCI - tells me it exists to try and make the centre-left fight. . . good luck with that one!
  7. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    That sounds appalling. Have you a link? They situate him correctly (in not in any great detail mind) in this piece.

    I had a fascinating article on this strain in italian politics but it seems to have disappeared from the internet.
  8. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Fight among themselves or fight 'the right'?
  9. Idris2002

    Idris2002 Christmas eve, you know?

    I'll ask her that. The last time I spoke to her about this, she was pretty depressed. She genuinely hates Berlusconi and the fash - given her family's politics, I wouldn't be surprised if she partisans among her relatives.
  10. sunnysidedown

    sunnysidedown Well-Known Member

    Wu-Ming comment on 5Star:–-comment-wu-ming-26022013
  11. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Found it.

    The point about the Fronte del Uomo Qualunque is not quite fleshed out there i- they were another example of fascism attempting another mask in the face of the anti-fascist consensus, they didn't just 'flirt with the right' as the article suggests, and if they are being trotted out as a historical forerunner of the grillo movement then would they suggest the same approach to them as that article suggests should be taken today? Of curse they wouldn't. This makes me think they've severely misjudged what it happening here, suggests a lack of wider knowledge about their sort of entrepreneur-politics and have got themselves rather too excited and this surely throws their characterisation of them as being open to left-wing pressure (like the muslim brothers in egypt?) I mean why not the same approach to UKIP here then?
  12. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Grillonomics (not that this is a question that should be viewed through formal policies).
  13. articul8

    articul8 Dishonest sociopath

    Hmm but
  14. contadino

    contadino Well-Known Member

    Their Programma contains very little details. Some stuff about stopping convicts from holding office (either public or private), some good environmental stuff (generation from renewables, car sharing, bicycle routes/parking, etc..), backtracking on some freedom of information laws, Alfano, electoral reform, etc..

    Everywhere else it is shockingly thin - nothing more than ideas on promoting economic growth (certainly nothing that has had the numbers worked through), nothing really about reducing the national debt, nothing really about how M5S would govern. A promise of a vote on euro membership, and then telling the EU that they're responsible for stimulating the Italian economy seem to be the entire policy on European issues.

    The whole thing is poorly considered. For example, they promise a reduction in aides/a cap on people employed by representatives, but then when asked how former engineers or doctors can write laws, their reply is that there are plenty of experts in civil employ to assist them.

    They've made this big thing during their campaign about how Grillo isn't running for election. He would be unable to hold public office under his own rules due to various convictions for libel and a car accident that he was involved in in the 80's. (Yes, yes, roughly a third of Italians voted for someone who wasn't even standing for office....) But right now, he is negotiating on behalf of M5S about working with the other parties, which is in many ways a role of state.

    Italians haven't voted *for* anything. All they have done is voted *against* what's already there. You can't say that they've wasted their vote, but I really hope that M5S can tighten up their manifesto in the next few weeks before they have to start campaigning again.

    Of my friends who voted M5S, they're all in the 20-35 age bracket, plus the hippies. Either unemployed or in shit jobs, with several having had to move away from home to find work. Nobody seems particularly worried about the content of the programma, or their ability to govern, they are all just fed up with what the status quo.
  15. dennisr

    dennisr the acceptable face

    Like bollocks - read the article:

    "What little remains of the Left was electorally crushed. Nichi Vendola’s SEL (Left Ecology Freedom) party, which was allied with the PD, got just 3.2%. Had the party stood alone it would have failed to cross the 4% threshold and would have had no seats in parliament. This was ultimately the fate of Rivoluzione Civile, the heterogeneous electoral list headed by the former magistrate, Antonio Ingroia."
    "The unprecedented support for Beppe Grillo can only be understood in the tragic context of the collapse of the Italian Left. But now an entirely new political landscape is emerging. The anger of working class people has exploded in the ballot box rather than on the streets and in the workplaces, but continuing crisis and instability will see the development of new mass struggles."
  16. articul8

    articul8 Dishonest sociopath

    :oops: I don't have a problem with anything in that. I was going on the basis of something I saw linked to on Facebook. Perhaps it was out of context.
  17. dennisr

    dennisr the acceptable face

    I think so. The simple point is that there is an angry collapse of support for 'the establishment' (that is what this 'protest' vote shows) but there is no fighting alternative on offer - just Grillo (something this 'protest' vote also shows) and that opens up further massive social instability.

    The CWI is not cheer leading it is analysing the situation as it actually exists on the ground.
    Random and Spanky Longhorn like this.
  18. The39thStep

    The39thStep Well-Known Member

    What about the bit where Rodney fell through the bar?
    Random, dennisr and Spanky Longhorn like this.
  19. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

  20. a. man. falling. through. a. bar.

    *slowly sinks down until resting head on stage*
  21. [​IMG]
    Random likes this.
  22. Libertad

    Libertad Would it help?

    Del, you plonker.:rolleyes:
    firky likes this.
  23. :rolleyes:
  24. Lo Siento.

    Lo Siento. Second As Farce

    Grillo refusing to join any government, insisting on his programme - he seems to be better at this Leninism stuff than a lot of actual Leninist parties have been in similar situations ;)
    Random, chilango and dennisr like this.
  25. sihhi

    sihhi John 3:30

    More lunacy here

    "The centre-left party, the Democrats (PD) led by Pier Luigi Bersani (picture), will get the largest vote in the lower house of parliament at about 31%. But Berlusconi’s right wing People of Freedom (PdL) party has got about 28%, much better than was expected when the campaign began. And the euro sceptic anti-politician movement of Beppe Grillo’s Five Star party has got an amazingly high 24%, while Monti has polled just 9%. So the vote against the existing order and policies; against austerity and the Euro leaders; was at least 51%. Italy’s electorate may still be in favour of staying in the euro but they are very much against austerity and the Euro leaders. And much of the centre-left voters would also agree. Italy’s voters have decisively rejected the current pro-capitalist policies."
  26. Random

    Random Ethnic nalgocrat

    It's only a matter of time before Going Live is sampled in a new Italian protest song

    chilango and Spanky Longhorn like this.
  27. treelover

    treelover Well-Known Member

    I thought that was a very good article, just facts and exposition, no hectoring, etc...
  28. treelover

    treelover Well-Known Member

    absolutely, Demos is pushing the idea of a swipe card for benefits with its 'partner' Mastercard
  29. treelover

    treelover Well-Known Member

    'Over the past 3 years, while movements fighting austerity and neoliberalism gained strength everywhere in the Mediterranean basin and in the West, nothing comparable has happened in Italy'

    from the article

    Not really here, just Occupy and the TUC marches, not Germany, not the Benelux countries, Scandanavia, even France, only really in the South...
  30. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Little Grillo dossier here.

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