Israel's verdict: We lost the war

[dylanredefined]

You seem knowledgable in this area. Tell me, if you've a mind to, if simple ground-to-air missiles, in their thousands, could bring down aircraft with strictly numerically-limited anti-missile capabilities ?

Problem is simply range even the best man portable missles have a altitude
1500m to 2000m maximum .The planes could just bomb from altitudes like in kosovo.Probably prevent idf using air power as they do now and make helicopters problamatic .Couldnt stop them bombing villages though.
Could lebanon really cope with another victory like this ?
Rachmin it wasnt just apc that got destroyed they also took out main battle tanks mervekas .

 

[moono]

Cheers.

Could lebanon really cope with another victory like this ?

They would have to. It's the Zionists that turn skirmish to war.
Can Zionism survive a repeat performance, not once, but perpetually ?

 

[laptop]

We killed 10 of them to every one of ours?

Them? 'Them?'

Do I conclude that all Lebanese are enemy in your book - for that's what the 10:1 ratio refers to? If this is the case... readers can draw their own conclusions.

I came to this thread to post this:

When the guns went silent in Aitta Shaab, a war-ravaged village close to the Israeli border, three children skipped through the rubble looking for a little fun.

Hurdling over lumps of crushed concrete and dodging spikes of twisted metal, Sukna, Hassan and Merwa, aged 10 to 12, paused before a curious object. Sukna picked it up. The terrifying blast flung her to the ground, thrusting metal shards into her liver. Hassan's abdomen was cut open. Merwa was hit in the leg and arm.
...
Israel may be pulling out of Lebanon but its soldiers leave behind a lethal legacy of this summer's 34-day war. The south is carpeted with unexploded cluster bombs, innocuous looking black canisters, barely larger than a torch battery, which pose a deadly threat to villagers stumbling back to their homes.

Mine-clearing teams scrambling across the region have logged 89 cluster bomb sites so far, and expect to find about 110 more. Meanwhile, casualties are being taken into hospital - four dead and 21 injured so far. Officials fear the toll could eventually stretch into the thousands.
Guardian

 

[Grandma Death]

Funny, but that is PR nonsebnse. Our stated objective going in was to neutralise their medium and long range missile capabilities. For the first 4 days it was heavily reitereated that were were not there to rttally destroy the group, simply to bring it to bay,

That said, how do you taslly a war? Body counts? Soldier to sodlier what was it? We killed 10 of them to every one of ours? Collateral damage? We lost 60 odd and they losr close to 2000 at last count. Physical damage and infrastructure? 180 million on our end, 3 billion -plus on thiers? total costs for us? less than 4 billion. Them,? Numbers dont go that high but as has been opfffered, pushed the clock at least 20 years back. Got a buffer zone out of the deal, an effective one we hope this time, how much more could we hope to achive under the circumstances?

Ha Ha Ha Ha....no matter how much spin you put on this it wont wash in the slightest.

Hezbollah are still standing and no doubt hugely bolstered by your disporportionate response. You made hardly any dent on their capabilities. Just about the only thing you did achieve was to force Hezbollah to regroup.

Short term the IDFs goals were pissed on.

Long term Israel has made even more enemies.

But hey you keep on believing what you want to believe.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The magnitude of the defeat is considerable. Israel appears to have lost at every level—strategic, operational and tactical. Nothing she tried worked. Air power failed, as it always does against an enemy who doesn’t have to maneuver operationally, or even move tactically for the most part. The attempts to blockade Lebanon and thus cut off Hezbollah’s resupply failed; her caches proved ample. Most seriously, the ground assault into Lebanon failed. Israel took little ground and paid heavily in casualties for that. More, she cannot hold what she has taken; if she is not forced to withdraw by diplomacy, Hezbollah will push her out, as it did once before. The alternative is a bleeding ulcer that never heals.

But these failures only begin to measure the magnitude of Israel’s defeat. While Hezbollah’s leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, is now an Islamic hero, Olmert has become a boiled brisket in the piranha pool that is Israeli politics. The cease-fire in Lebanon will allow camera crews to broadcast the extent of the destruction to the world, with further damage to Israel’s image. Israel’s “wall” strategy for dealing with the Palestinians has been undone; Hamas rockets can fly over a wall as easily as Hezbollah rockets have flown over Israel’s northern border.

Most importantly, an Islamic Fourth Generation entity, Hezbollah, will now point the way throughout the Arab and larger Islamic world to a future in which Israel can be defeated. That will have vast ramifications, and not for Israel alone. Hundreds of millions of Moslems will believe that the same Fourth Generation war that defeated hated Israel can beat equally-hated America, its “coalitions” and its allied Arab and Moslem regimes. Future events seem more likely to confirm that belief than to undermine it.

source

 

[nino_savatte]

Them? 'Them?'

Do I conclude that all Lebanese are enemy in your book - for that's what the 10:1 ratio refers to? If this is the case... readers can draw their own conclusions.

I came to this thread to post this:

Revealing, isn't it? it's all "us" and "them". You will note that our dear friend, R18, is no longer in the Bronx (as he previously claimed) but in Israel.

Interesting.

 

[nino_savatte]

DavidDissident: Israel does not consider America a "friend." Nations do not have friends.

Don't make me laugh. US foreign policy in the Middle East revolves around the whims of the pro-Israeli lobby and neatly combines with the desires of the rapturists and the other mad Xtian Zionists, who see the state of Israel as the precursor to the "second coming".

You should be careful who you make friends with. Though this piece of advice was clearly ignored by Jabotinsky, who thought he could cut a deal with the Nazis.

 

[Jonti]

You will note that our dear friend, R18, is no longer in the Bronx (as he preciously claimed) but in Israel.

Has he given up that job working at Ground Zero in New York, then?

 

[Belushi]

Revealing, isn't it? it's all "us" and "them". You will note that our dear friend, R18, is no longer in the Bronx (as he preciously claimed) but in Israel.

Interesting.

Is R18 someone who used to post here a few years back?

 

[nino_savatte]

Has he given up that job working at Ground Zero in New York, then?

Ground Zero...digging new tunnels (that don't exist) for the NY subway system...is there anything this fella doesn't do?

Aye, it looks like he's gone to sunny Israel to take up arms against the filthy Arabs and to help prop up Kadima's flagging fortunes.

 

[nino_savatte]

Is R18 someone who used to post here a few years back?

Some reckon he's actually Golem. I never met him but from what I've heard, their posts are pretty similar in style and tone.

 

[dylanredefined]

Cheers.



They would have to. It's the Zionists that turn skirmish to war.
Can Zionism survive a repeat performance, not once, but perpetually ?

Seem to be doing ok for the last 50 years .IDF not getting to beriut by lunchtime is hardly a crushing defeat for them .Hopefully its put them off
anymore advetures for a while

 

[laptop]

Israel is 'preparing for more fighting'
By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem
(Filed: 21/08/2006)

Any chance of long-term peace between Lebanon and Israel all but vanished last night after Amir Peretz, the Israeli defence minister, said his country was preparing for another round of fighting.

Mr Peretz spoke only hours after Israeli commandos mounted a raid deep inside Lebanon. Kofi Annan, the United Nations secretary general, said it was a violation of the week-old UN ceasefire.

Telegraph

They've not got to nominate the proxy force to occupy Southern Lebanon, so...

 

[moono]

If they attack Lebanon again, against the ceasefire resolution, does that mean that NATO can attack and cut them off ? Lol.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Larry Johnson thinks Israel is still playing it stupid:

What would we be saying if Hizbullah kidnapped the Israeli Deputy Prime Minister and launched a daring raid inside Israel to disrupt a U.S. effort to resupply the Israeli Defense Force? We would be up in arms over their provocation and would be convening the UN Security Council to recommend new sanctions. Hell, we'd probably have the National Security Council in session and be ready to dispatch U.S. military forces to help Israel.

Okay. Back to reality. Hizbullah is minding its own business (or at least fostering that public image) and has embarked on public relief operation to counteract the devastation visited on the people of Lebanon by Israel's recent invasion and bombing campaign. The Hizbullah aid and recovery effort is so successful that some wags suggest that Nasrallah be hired to take over from FEMA in the event the U.S. is hit with another storm like Katrina.

and

Now we have the spectacle of Hizbullah acting with statesmanship and restraint while the Israelis destroy their credibility among the international community. That is a truth Israel's true friends need to communicate to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in the strongest terms possible. And they need to do it soon.

source

 

[camouflage]

Funny, but that is PR nonsebnse. Our stated objective going in was to neutralise their medium and long range missile capabilities. For the first 4 days it was heavily reitereated that were were not there to rttally destroy the group, simply to bring it to bay,

That said, how do you taslly a war? Body counts? Soldier to sodlier what was it? We killed 10 of them to every one of ours? Collateral damage? We lost 60 odd and they losr close to 2000 at last count. Physical damage and infrastructure? 180 million on our end, 3 billion -plus on thiers? total costs for us? less than 4 billion. Them,? Numbers dont go that high but as has been opfffered, pushed the clock at least 20 years back. Got a buffer zone out of the deal, an effective one we hope this time, how much more could we hope to achive under the circumstances?

Isreal lost the war politically, and strategicly. Hezbollah remain right up against the border, but this time they have the Lebanese army and a few Italians to keep the area legit as far as the real international community is concerned. nobody would be stupid enough to try to disarm the Hez. Isreal will hopefully not be stupid enough to try an invade again.

 

[camouflage]

Dubversion: What do you call missiles coming through your ceiling on a daily baisis? IdS that not threat enough? directing all daily activities around a 20 second warning buzzer?

...

"War for Israel is total shambles." What? Funny, but we accomplished 2 of our 3 main objectives and that coinstitutes great success in any man's army.

Belushi: No amry is invincible. That said., us killing 10 od theirs to every oneof ours does seem to lend a little more of that invincible status. Alof you are way too young. In 67 it looked bleak. In 73 bleaker. Everytime we triuphied. We did great here and had we the chance to get the civilians out of the way we would have mopped the floorwith them.

deluded. I've heard about the Isreali airforces constant buzzing of Lebanese civilian areas, the kiddnappings, the assasinations, the bombings, the other provocations to begin a war Isreal saught, and the hand Isreal probably played in the series of events that lead to Syria quiting Lebanon, making it vulnerable both to civil war and Isreali invasion.

Interesting that every time Isreal killed civilians thewy muttered some mendacity about Hezboillah hiding amonsgt civilians, yet the Isreali military bases and positions near civilian areas are never mentioned. At best, the IOF and Hezbollah are as bad as eachother. I suspect Goliath is worse then David.

 

[Streathamite]

DavidDissident: Israel does not consider America a "friend." Nations do not have friends. That have common or intersecting objectives that sometimes lead to ,utually beneficial arrangements. .

why not call it what it is then? sugardaddy, paymaster, overlord. without US aid the Israeli economy would be fucked, and you are their proxy bootboy in the area

 

[Belushi]

Some reckon he's actually Golem. I never met him but from what I've heard, their posts are pretty similar in style and tone.

Yeah, I remember Golem from when I was lurker, theres a definite similarity as far as I remember.

 

[nino_savatte]

The Spanish Inquisition had to do with Papal politics and nothing at all to do with hispanics per se since most hispanics incorporate some level or another in non catholic worship into their liturgy.

So who were the victims of this papal policy, matey? Who would you descrbe as "Hispanic"?

It seems that there are gaps in your knowledge of the Inquistion too.

 

[iROBOT]

Belushi: No amry is invincible. That said., us killing 10 od theirs to every oneof ours does seem to lend a little more of that invincible status. Alof you are way too young. In 67 it looked bleak. In 73 bleaker. Everytime we triuphied. We did great here and had we the chance to get the civilians out of the way we would have mopped the floorwith them.

Interesting way of seeing it. If not a little too brutal for my liking. War should be about stratigic matters not how many you've killed....cause there's alot more Muslims in the world then Jews.

There is no end to this.....

 

[Streathamite]

That said., us killing 10 od theirs to every oneof ours does seem to lend a little more of that invincible status. <SNIP> We did great here and had we the chance to get the civilians out of the way we would have mopped the floorwith them.

err, right, so every innocent lebanese civilian your thugs murdered is 'them' now? No wonder you are fast acquaring the status of international pariah. how much more sympathy for hizbullah do you want to create?

 

[Belushi]

Belushi: No amry is invincible. That said., us killing 10 od theirs to every oneof ours does seem to lend a little more of that invincible status. Alof you are way too young. In 67 it looked bleak. In 73 bleaker. Everytime we triuphied. We did great here and had we the chance to get the civilians out of the way we would have mopped the floorwith them.

In '67 and '73 you did triumph though, now the world has seen you fail. Sure you slaughtered thousands of civilians but you failes in your avowed aims and Hizbullah showed the world how your overwhelming firepower can be succesfully resisted using classic guerilla tactics.

One question Rach - where are the two Israeli prisoners your attack was meant to free?

 

[rachamim18]

Sigh...That ia not what Olmert meant at all. He maent thgat the conflictwas too bogged down in public relations and media campaigns. From a statistical perspective we certainly won without a doubt.

Dylan: Copters were only used to ferry, not for operations per se. You are correct that Merkavas were neutralised as well, the standing figure is 3. that waws only possible from an extremely short range which they accomplished by mouseholing.

LapTop: You may be as delusional as your mind allows but my comments on 10:1 refer to IDF verus Hezbollah and AMAL.

As for your blurb about those poor innocent girls playing in a war zone unsupervised, picking up whatever strikes their fancy, I can offer you almost the exact same anecdote substiututing Israeli kids in their stead, The thing about it is that war being what it is, is that war as they say, is hell.

Nino: Correct Nino, likw many Reservists I am called home to do my duty in time of need. America is merely a place to make more money. I feeel nothingother than that for it. Again, let us stick to the subject.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It sounds like you still think Israel was successful though. Others do not:

The magnitude of the defeat is considerable. Israel appears to have lost at every level—strategic, operational and tactical. Nothing she tried worked. Air power failed, as it always does against an enemy who doesn’t have to maneuver operationally, or even move tactically for the most part. The attempts to blockade Lebanon and thus cut off Hezbollah’s resupply failed; her caches proved ample. Most seriously, the ground assault into Lebanon failed. Israel took little ground and paid heavily in casualties for that. More, she cannot hold what she has taken; if she is not forced to withdraw by diplomacy, Hezbollah will push her out, as it did once before. The alternative is a bleeding ulcer that never heals.

source

 

[Kid_Eternity]

rachamim18=Golem right? The tone, style of posting and Israel fixation is unmistakable!

 

[sleaterkinney]

Sigh...That ia not what Olmert meant at all. He maent thgat the conflictwas too bogged down in public relations and media campaigns. From a statistical perspective we certainly won without a doubt.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. You didn't achieve your objectives end of and Hizbollah will be more popular now than it was.

 

[Belushi]

rachamim18=Golem right? The tone, style of posting and Israel fixation is unmistakable!

I'm pretty sure though it was a long time ago that Golem was posting.

 

[rachamim18]

Jonti: Why the obesssion with mnr private life? If you truly care you are welcome to IM me and find whatever tidbits you savor. Now, since you asked, that paticular job ended on May 2005 with great fanfare, even have a a picture of me and Bush shaklng hands. Work, or rather the rerbuilding there has begun on that site but I refused ther assignment because I am close to retirement an no longer desire a 7 day, 12 hour shift set up. I plan to be leaving Amerivcca for good within 90 days so it would not have made sense. I am currently prepping the footings on the Third Avenue Bridge between Harlem and Bronx. It is the second in three bridges all being redone by the same contractory, Kishka. When I was recalled to Active Duty my shop steward filed a personal emrgency leave that covers me for up to 9 months.

Nino: Aahhhh....More obession...."Tunnels that o not exist?" Maybe you might try looking uo "2nd Ave. Subway" as well as the "Croton Resevoir Tunnel" and of course the "Hudson Tunnel" to accomodate larger shipping to kepp NYC's ports up to shape. Must we go through this everytime your diaper gets wet? I am in Local 731, NYC, Excavators and Concrete Laborers LIUNA


To all: Can we now please get back to facts that matter>

 

[Belushi]

So what about those prisoners Rach? I thought the IDF never left anyone behind?