Israel's response to Katyushas

[Bernie Gunther]

In calculating the legality of an attack on premises where a Hezbollah combatant is present, Israel must take into account the risk to civilians. It is not relieved from this obligation on the grounds that it considers Hezbollah responsible for having located legitimate military targets within or near populated areas, or that Hezbollah may be using the civilian population as a shield. Even in situations of Hezbollah’s illegal location of military targets, or shielding, Israel must refrain from launching any attack that may be expected to cause excessive civilian loss in comparison to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. That is, a violation by Hezbollah in this regard does not justify Israeli forces ignoring the civilian consequences of a planned attack. The intentional launch of an attack in an area without regard to the civilian consequences or in the knowledge that the harm to civilians would be disproportionately high compared to any definite military benefit to be achieved would be a serious violation of international humanitarian law, and a war crime.

In any event, the presence of a Hezbollah commander or military facility in a populated area never justifies attacking the area as such rather than the particular military target. It is a prohibited indiscriminate attack, and a war crime, to treat an entire area as a military target instead of attacking the particular military facilities or personnel within that area.

source

 

[ViolentPanda]

The point is that Hezbollah have made a tatic out of hiding within civilian groups in (mostly) civilian garb. If *they* wanted fewer civilian casualties they wouldn't be so close to the civilians...

The point is that you appear to be happy to believe pro-Israeli press, and your lack of quantification (because there isn't the information out there) of how often Hezbollah hide "within civilian groups" shows your assumption to be either poorly informed supposition or wholesale swallowing of propaganda on your part.

 

[ViolentPanda]

By the time Hizbullah have fired and scooted elsewhere there are only civilians to hit. It seems Israel knows that but is intent on causing civilian deaths.

And we don't actually know the incidence of Hizbullah firing from 'civilian areas' as a proportion of the overall numbers of launches. We also don't know for sure that anything was ever fired from any of the places Israel has bombed. We only have their word for it.

Indeed.
Given the mobility of BM-24 units (based on rugged all-terrain 4-wheel drive trucks) there's no military or technical need to fire from civilian settings. A stand of trees or even an open road are as good if not better.

And this "they were firing from this village" claim does of course provide a fragment of a fig-leaf for depopulating southern Lebanon.

So, correct military action or convenient pretext to provide Israel with it's much-desired "buffer zone"?
I'd go (heavy-hearted) with the latter.

 

[moono]

No 'buffer zone' without and equal 'buffer zone' in Israeli territory.

 

[xenon]

"BM-24 units"

Is it known that Hez Bollah have a significant number of those vehicles? If so would that not partly back up the Israely claims that they're being equipped by Syria?

Why wouldn't Hez Bollah launch missiles from near civilian areas rather than risk driving out on open road and clearly visible?

This of course doesn't justify Israels seemingly mindless bombing of villages after the fact.

 

[jæd]

Why wouldn't Hez Bollah launch missiles from near civilian areas rather than risk driving out on open road and clearly visible?

If Isreal is launching attacks "after the fact", wouldn't this mean that Hezbollahs launching of rockets isn't that risky...? So they could drive of quickly afterwards...

This of course doesn't justify Israels seemingly mindless bombing of villages after the fact.

Well I think we're all agreed on that. Its just that it doesn't seem to me that Hezbollah isn't also to blame for the high civilian casualites...

 

[xenon]

Well presumably launching a rocket from an open or away from buildings, area. Then driving off in a vehicle. . you'll stand out quite easily. Launched from adjacent to a village or between buildings, you could perhaps run off into the hills.

This is no more than an educated guess. but the point is Israel's tactics have hardly been shown to be effective in anything other than galvanising support for Hez Bollah, making them look like inept bullies and ensuring a few years yet of terrorist activity.

 

[xenon]

I take VP's point about there not being sufficient evidence to say whether Hez are launching from civilian areas. I would not be surprised though. Also aluded to in above posts the placement of Israely forces or instalations in close proximity to civilians.

TBH if iwere in a gorilla campaign I would mingle with non comatents for practical and propergander purposers. Israel have risen to this bait in spectacular form.

 

[ZAMB]

The point is that you appear to be happy to believe pro-Israeli press, and your lack of quantification (because there isn't the information out there) of how often Hezbollah hide "within civilian groups" shows your assumption to be either poorly informed supposition or wholesale swallowing of propaganda on your part.

It isn't that the information isn't out there - just that some people, and media sources, just prefer to ignore it. However, it takes attention away from the recent story about Israelis using Palestinians as human shields.
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp


The "hiding among civilians" myth

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too. The almost nightly airstrikes on the southern suburbs of Beirut could be seen as making some sense, as the Israelis appear convinced there are command and control bunkers underneath the continually smoldering rubble. There were some civilian casualties the first few nights in places like Haret Hreik, but people quickly left the area to the Hezbollah fighters with their radios and motorbikes.........

Although Israel targets apartments and offices because they are considered "Hezbollah" installations, the group has a clear policy of keeping its fighters away from civilians as much as possible. This is not for humanitarian reasons -- they did, after all, take over an apartment building against the protests of the landlord, knowing full well it would be bombed -- but for military ones.

"You can be a member of Hezbollah your entire life and never see a military wing fighter with a weapon," a Lebanese military intelligence official, now retired, once told me. "They do not come out with their masks off and never operate around people if they can avoid it. They're completely afraid of collaborators. They know this is what breaks the Palestinians -- no discipline and too much showing off."

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/1731836.php

 

[nino_savatte]

After a New York Times article in September cited American officials as confirming that Hezbollah had received long-range Iranian-manufactured Fajr-3 and Fajr-5 rockets,5 even Nasrallah could not resist alluding to them. While careful to speak in hypothetical terms, he boasted of the suffering that such an arsenal could inflict on Israeli civilians. "In 1996 . . . with Katyushas alone, the resistance was able to displace two million people and [the Israeli government] had to look for places in central Israel to settle them," he declared last month. "[If] Hezbollah's missiles can now reach all population centers in Israel, then where can they flee?"6

http://www.meib.org/articles/0211_l2.htm

And what about all the armaments that are being shipped from the US to Israel via this country? Israel's missiles can strike any country in the Middle East and Hizb'allah's rockets? They have a very limited range.

Of course, you never actually posted any of your own thoughts here, just those of an opinion-former from one of your 'approved' sources of information.

 

[nino_savatte]

The point is that Hezbollah have made a tatic out of hiding within civilian groups in (mostly) civilian garb. If *they* wanted fewer civilian casualties they wouldn't be so close to the civilians...

Though there was an interersting comment on the BBC website on Saturday. It was about a Lebanese home-owner trying to persuade a member of the Hezbollah to fire his rockets from somewhere else...

Aye and Huns rape nuns and pull premature babies from incubators and slaughter them before their mother's eyes.

 

[Spion]

If Isreal is launching attacks "after the fact", wouldn't this mean that Hezbollahs launching of rockets isn't that risky...? So they could drive of quickly afterwards...

Katyushas can also be launched reomotely or on a timer

Its just that it doesn't seem to me that Hezbollah isn't also to blame for the high civilian casualites...

I just don't get how Hizbullah can be responsible for someone else bombing civilians, when a) we don't actually know how many or whether any of these things are fired from 'civilian areas' b) and even if they were, the practicalities of firing katyushas means there's little or nothing to destroy once they've been fired so to attack that site will be of no military gain

 

[jæd]

Aye and Huns rape nuns and pull premature babies from incubators and slaughter them before their mother's eyes.

Of course, Hezbollah would never put out propaganda of their own...

 

[nino_savatte]

Of course, Hezbollah would never put out propaganda of their own...

Of course, everything that falls from Mark Regev's or Dore Gold's lips is to be believed.

Go soak yer heid.

 

[ZAMB]

This exerpt from the same article as I quoted above, is also interesting. Is Israel discriminating between Hezbollah fighters and its political party supporters, or mere employees? Does teaching in a school founded by Hezbollah also make you a target? I think it should also be remembered that only 6 countries, in the whole world, consider Hezbollah a terrorist organisation.

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"BM-24 units"

Is it known that Hez Bollah have a significant number of those vehicles? If so would that not partly back up the Israely claims that they're being equipped by Syria?

It's known that they had some.
The problem with quantifying "how many" is that you're talking about something that can be assembled from parts. The mobile bases are 4-wheel drive trucks, hardly a niche market item in that part of the world, the firing racks can be manufactured from angle iron, and the katyusha rockets can be purchased wholesale from just about any FSU or satellite country (as can the trucks etc).

Why wouldn't Hez Bollah launch missiles from near civilian areas rather than risk driving out on open road and clearly visible?

IF being in or near a civilian area gave Hezb an advantage insofar as being able to get within range of a target then of course they would do so, but given that it isn't necessary for them to do so given their current strategy of firing to inspire fear rather than military damage in the Israeli border towns, there isn't any compelling reaso to do so. Also, firing from an open position may make you more visible for the few seconds it takes to fire your entire battery of rockets, but given that you can be gone by the time any "in strength" response can be made, and you'll leave less evidence of deployment (use in built-up areas leaves tell-tale burn marks from the rocket exhaust), then it makes as much, if not more sense to deploy from more open areas.
Of course, I'm speaking from a "commonsense" military perspective, which neither side appears to have much of a handle on.

This of course doesn't justify Israels seemingly mindless bombing of villages after the fact.

Nope.

 

[xenon]

The impression I get from some vox Pop's done with Israely's or their supporters, is that many wouldn't care for distinguishing too much between Hez supporters, employees, and their actual fighters. It's a fairly flat argument of well Hez Bollah have killed Israely women and children, so if you're supporting them, by extension you support that, therefore you've put yourself in the gun sights.

Either way it's illegal to target civilians no matter who they support. I don't believe Israel are targetting them but they're not being particularly careful about avoiding them. How many more times are we going to hear phrases along the lines of. A deeply regretable incident. But our intelegence suggests terrorists were acting in that area.

The usual retourt from those firmly behind Israel's action is. Well what should they have done.

2 soldiers kidnapped, captured, however you want to put it. Try negociate for prisoner exchange. Show reasonable. Demand sesation of any attacks they're may have been in return for more high profile prisoners. Get the UN to beef up their presence already there or suggest you may have to secure your own borders more vigerously. Use special forces to try and take out the armerment whilst it's being built up.

Top on my list wouldn't have been fuck Lebanon's infrastructure up and give your enemy a massive proppergander boost.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well presumably launching a rocket from an open or away from buildings, area. Then driving off in a vehicle. . you'll stand out quite easily. Launched from adjacent to a village or between buildings, you could perhaps run off into the hills.

Depends.
If the IDF has a drone in the area with IR capability then they'd be able to look for anomalous heat sources, which would stand out, but if you're relying on an F-16 doing a flyby, then contrary to what films like "Iron Eagles" portray, spotting from above a stationary vehicle that is camouflaged (or even just densely coated in local dust) is extremely difficult.

As for locating on the ground, the IDF doesn't have enough manpower to reliably police possible launch sites.

 

[xenon]

Thanks for the extra info their VP. Being a bit thick here. What's FSU though?

 

[Spion]

Thanks for the extra info their VP. Being a bit thick here. What's FSU though?

former soviet union

 

[xenon]

Tar.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It isn't that the information isn't out there - just that some people, and media sources, just prefer to ignore it. However, it takes attention away from the recent story about Israelis using Palestinians as human shields.

When I say "isn't out there", I mean for jaed or anyone else to find in the daily press or other mainstream outlets.

 

[rachamim18]

Bernie: "International Law on the subject of bombing civilian areas." The law is actually highly interprative witha a huge platform of deniability. You essentially have to prove that Israel knowingly fired a missile [or other armament] knowing that the collateral damage could exceeed the military payoff. Then you are essentially arguing against an armed forces personal objectives and who are you to determine them? Ergo, there is a reason why noone to my knowledge has ever been indicted on that count.

Panda: "BM24s..." Except that we haven't seen any. The majority of launchers have been improvisational garbage [yet effective] that they hide either in compounds or in their ratholes. They have used the last 6 years to play VietCong. They have surely used trucks to move their equipment but striking mobile launchers is a losing propostion.

"Depopulating village claim." Damn, you fault us for killing civlians and then fault us for trying to get them out of harms way. For my money I would rather see lives saved any day of the week.

Moono: "Equal buffer zone in Israel." You make no sense. It is Hezbollah that crossed into Israel and killed 8 soldiers before kidnapping the two they did not kill immediately. It is Hezbollah that has indiscriminately lobbed its missiles into Israel for years, not to mention cross border fire fights it has initiated every so often.

Xenon2:"Armed by Syria." It is no secret at all. Simply look at some of the arms.

"Why don't they fire from an open site?" Because they do not want to get blown to smithereens.

"Firing missiles from civlian areas." Of course they do, they say so themselves on mainstream press interviews.


"It is suggested that Israel also places its forces and/or installations in civlian areas." Not true at all.

ZAMB: "[an article that says] Hezbollah militia, which is far outnumbered by political members, does not operate in heavily civlian areas." That is complete nonsense. There are three military divisions with a total of about 4,000 full time militia members. These are supported by many volunteers but the main point is that these 3 divisions are ensconced in heavily populated districts. In fact, officers do not wear any ornamentation, use bodyguards, or have special vehichles so that they blend perfectly into the militia and the militia dress in civilian clothes unless there isa holiday or procession so that even to the villagers Hezbollah is virtually indistinguishable. Of course they know who is who as those are very clannish places but an outsider, say an Israeli asset or soldier would have no idea without digging.


"Comments of the Lebanese Intel "official." In fact they do show off both weapons and fatigues on special occasions. A good example would be last year's national elections when they wanted to impress voters. In fact, I have seen maybe 80 militias in my life and they are the best outifitted [by Syria in this area] as far as fatigues go. Nice cammies and green berets.

 

[rachamim18]

ZAMB: "Is Israel discriminating between Hezbollah militants and political operatives?" No, and why should it? The militants are only carrying out the beliefs of the political faction and those beliefs state that Israel is to be destroyed. It is a two headed snake and both heads must be removed to kill it.

Spion: "Katyushas can be launched via timers." Except that Katyushas are far from the only missiles in the Hezbollah arsenal.

Xenon:"Negotiate for a pris0oner exchange." You mean give in to terror so that terrorists would then have a valid reason to kidnap Israelis? Makes no sense. However, you can bet your last dollar/pound/shekel that Israel has/is offer/ing to do just that and in that past has often gone 100 heads to one [or even greater losses] when exchanging. Israel has a special policy about leaving noone behind. We are trained to carry our dead comrades out of battle and I believe we are the only army that does this. For that matter Israel has exchanged Arab prisoners for body parts of Israelis, this is how serious the policy is.

"Get the UN to beef up their presence." That one is a side splitter. You are aware of course of what happened on the border under UNIFIL's eyes in 2000? Amazing that you would bring that one up if so. If not, please look it up and you will then see why the UN is a thoroughly useless entity in the region [of course they worthless in almost every area of operation, anywhereon the globe but that is another bone].

"Secure your onw borders more vigirously." Well, I will not argue that one since two separate kidnappings have occurred on two different fronts in the same damn month.

"Use Special Forces to take out the armamanets as they are being built up." It is an impossible task. When Israel does make precison cross border raids though, they are inevitably spat upon by the world at large [not to mention this loving forum].

"Don't f. up Lebanon's infrastructure..." Taking out the infrastructure is rule one before any medium to large scale incusrion.

 

[TAE]

"Don't f. up Lebanon's infrastructure..." Taking out the infrastructure is rule one before any medium to large scale incusrion.

So the israeli government was lying when it originally said it was not planing one?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: "BM24s..." Except that we haven't seen any.

All that means is you haven't seen any, not that there aren't any.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

Moono: "Equal buffer zone in Israel." You make no sense. It is Hezbollah that crossed into Israel and killed 8 soldiers before kidnapping the two they did not kill immediately. It is Hezbollah that has indiscriminately lobbed its missiles into Israel for years, not to mention cross border fire fights it has initiated every so often.

Garbage. The tank crew died in Lebanon, just 35 feet inside Lebanon, according to residents.
Hizb'allah have always said that their attacks were reprisal attacks for Zionist incursions into, and assassinations within, Lebanese territory. Just match any media articles and you'll see they're right. A Zionist assassination is followed by a Hizb'allah raid.
The Hizb'allah capture of the tank crew was in support of their Palestinian brothers. The Zionist action against Palestine was internationally condemned.

If there is going to be a 'buffer zone' then it must encompass equal territory. It was the Zionists who attacked Lebanese civilians, not the other way around.

 

[xenon]

rachamin.
I won't argue about the effectiveness or otherwise of the UN and note your reference to the alleged involvement with the incident October 2000. I'm aware Isreal have done prisoner exchanges for hostages and the return of remains of dead soldiers. As in that case in 2000.

It's good to get another perspective from someone in the area. My earlier post was off the top of my head. For me it's just baffeling to see how the damage inflicted on Lebanon is going to really make Israel more secure.

 

[Barking_Mad]

The point is that Hezbollah have made a tatic out of hiding within civilian groups in (mostly) civilian garb. If *they* wanted fewer civilian casualties they wouldn't be so close to the civilians...

Though there was an interersting comment on the BBC website on Saturday. It was about a Lebanese home-owner trying to persuade a member of the Hezbollah to fire his rockets from somewhere else...

No you're right, they'd go stand out in the middle of a field and wait to be bombed. Like target practice, right?

 

[nino_savatte]

Rach, I noticed you're keeping a bit quiet about the US supply of heavy weapons to Israel, but are quite keen to finger Syria and Iran as suppliers of weaponry to Hezbollah.

I think you've missed the point in a spectacular way.

Israel = The US beachhead in the Middle East

How does it feel to be exploited?