Israel's New Weapon?

[ViolentPanda]

E2A when you talk of hyperbole why not have a look at the word 'racism' directed at Israel all the time.

You may (or may not) have noticed that I attack people who make that particular generalised claim of racism as energetically as I attack any other type of stupidity. While I'm utterly convinced that there are racist Israelis (I'm related to a fair few), I don't believe that "Israel is racist". That sort of glibness does nothig to help point up the very real problems around some of the founding assumptions of the Israeli state which do give some succour to racism.

Israel has no problems with a person who is Arab. There are hundreds of thousands of ethnic Arab Jews who live with the energetic blessing of the Israeli state.

I disagree with your first sentence. While it may be correct "to the letter", it isn't correct "to the spirit". The state of Israel does have a problem with some Arabs; the sort that wish to operate outside what Israel defines as the parameters of qualification for "being a good Arab".

It is a religous problem not an ethnic one that Israel has. But racism is a more emotive word so Israel is tagged as racist.

I believe it is both. Not only is it a clash between the hegemonic version of Islam at play in the middle east and Judaism (one only need note the relative amity between Sufi Muslims and Jews over the last ten centuries to know that the faiths aren't inimical), but also a clash between two branches of what were originally the same ethnic group, where divergent cultures have formed.

No doubt there will be the usual game of definitions to mould a definition to either a) prove Jewish Arabs are not Arab (inspite of some Arabs being Jewish long before there were any Muslims in the world for reference try al Quran) or b) to find a definition of racism that can be used about the Israeli attitude to the people's of the occupied territories. The same word games that bring howls of derision when Islamists are tagged as Islamofacists (there not real facists) but allow Jewish Islamophobic politicians to be tagged as facist.

Semantics.
A fascist is a fascist by the holding of certain views. If a person or organisation, Arab, Jew or Native American for that matter, holds views that accord with a reasoned and neutral definition of fascism then they are "fascist". If they hold views that accord with a reasoned and neutral definition of racism then they are racist. To blithely term someone Judeo-or Islamofascist in accordance with some half-arsed interpretation by a politician or other politically-motivated person of a set of actions that don't actually accord to a reasoned and neutral definition of fascism (Rumsfeld's loose use of the term being an example of this) is plain stupidity, especially when the particular isolationist form of Islam being promoted as "Islamofascist" is actually the same form that was promoted for 40 years by the US and most major European powers as a balance to secular Arab nationalism and Pan-Arabism.

 

[LumpenProle]

To imply anti-Semitism when it doesn't exist weakens the force of the charge when it is applied correctly.

Absolutely. The danger of crying wolf.

The "Jew Death Ray" comment from DD smacked of both hysteria and the implication of anti-semitism.

 

[david dissadent]

Absolutely. The danger of crying wolf.

The "Jew Death Ray" comment from DD smacked of both hysteria and the implication of anti-semitism.

Israel commits war crimes. Israel should be challanged in the world. But ask yourself a question, do you think that the criticism Israel recieves here on these boards, and throughout the left in general , is in the same proportion as other war criminals and human rights abusers?

Have a quite think about posts per victim. Im not actualy going to waste my time counting but just take a rough guess. Do you believe that Israel recieves the same ratio of posts per victim (dead) as other nations in the world? Israel does not break above 10 000 victims over the past ten years, compair with Darfur and Iraq where the victims in the former are between 70 000 and 200 000 and in the later over the past ten years creeping towards a million. Darfur gets about a thread every two months, (over this year its posts per victim ration is in 1000's of dead per post and Iraq gets about the same number of threads and posts as Israel so its ratio would be in the order of 100 times the posts per dead as Israel.

You and all the others can scoff, but you know what...... I think there is a reason Israel is so uniquley singled out and attacked.

Good agitprop doesnt lie. It just relentlessly repeats cherrypicked facts.

 

[LumpenProle]

So you think the sole reason that Israel is "uniquley singled out and attacked" is anti-semitism?

 

[david dissadent]

So you think the sole reason that Israel is "uniquley singled out and attacked" is anti-semitism?

Strawmen make life easier dont they.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Israel commits war crimes. Israel should be challanged in the world. But ask yourself a question, do you think that the criticism Israel recieves here on these boards, and throughout the left in general , is in the same proportion as other war criminals and human rights abusers?

Let's establish a few facts:
This forum is for "Middle East Affairs and News". It would be fairly unusual if the state of Israel [b}were not[/B] criticised here.

The state of Israel, as a "strategic ally" (as with Egypt) of the US, can be assured of only being criticised in a token way by US (or for that matter European) officialdom for any "little mistakes" it makes. The historical record bears this out.

The state of Israel represents itself and is represented by it's allies as a democracy. It is, however, possibly the only democracy that describes itself as the homeland/refuge/safe haven of adherents of a particular faith. By representing itself as a democracy it sets itself certain standards that, if it transgresses them, it MUST be called on, in the same way that any other nation-state representing itself as a democracy must be.

Have a quite think about posts per victim. Im not actualy going to waste my time counting but just take a rough guess. Do you believe that Israel recieves the same ratio of posts per victim (dead) as other nations in the world? Israel does not break above 10 000 victims over the past ten years, compair with Darfur and Iraq where the victims in the former are between 70 000 and 200 000 and in the later over the past ten years creeping towards a million. Darfur gets about a thread every two months, (over this year its posts per victim ration is in 1000's of dead per post and Iraq gets about the same number of threads and posts as Israel so its ratio would be in the order of 100 times the posts per dead as Israel.

You're not comparing like with like. Darfur as a situation has very little in common with Israel/Palestine.

You and all the others can scoff, but you know what...... I think there is a reason Israel is so uniquley singled out and attacked.

Good agitprop doesnt lie. It just relentlessly repeats cherrypicked facts.

You're entitled to your opinion, and if it comforts you to believe that anti-Semitism is at the root of everything, then good for you.

Expecting people to agree with your sophomoric analyses, though. That's another thing entirely.

Oh, and "good agitprop" does lie. By Ommission.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Strawmen make life easier dont they.

You should know.

 

[david dissadent]

Let's establish a few facts:
This forum is for "Middle East Affairs and News". It would be fairly unusual if the state of Israel [b}were not[/B] criticised here.

Now that is stating the blindingly obvious. And I did not say it should not be. What are you trying to achieve with this post?

You're not comparing like with like. Darfur as a situation has very little in common with Israel/Palestine.

Duh. More dead less fuss no jews involved.

You're entitled to your opinion, and if it comforts you to believe that anti-Semitism is at the root of everything, then good for you.

Strawman *yawns*.

Expecting people to agree with your sophomoric analyses, though. That's another thing entirely.

*yawns*why would I expect people to surrender there faith in the TRUTH?

Oh, and "good agitprop" does lie. By Ommission.

So you repeat what I said and think it makes you look clever?

Good agitprop doesnt lie. It just relentlessly repeats cherrypicked facts.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Now that is stating the blindingly obvious. And I did not say it should not be. What are you trying to achieve with this post?

What am I trying to achieve?
Let's just say I wanted to see how pathetic your reply would be.

Thanks for not disappointing.

Duh. More dead less fuss no jews involved.

Then why use the example, lackwit?
I'd venture a guess that you used it for emotional impact, even though it lacked relevance.
You do that quite a lot.

Strawman *yawns*.

Why, because you pick out one word, bold it, and therefore attempt to place the entire thrust of the sentence on that one point?
You play a child's game, Mr. dissadent.

*yawns*why would I expect people to surrender there faith in the TRUTH?

Whose "truth"? There are no absolutes.

So you repeat what I said and think it makes you look clever?

If I'd repeated it I would have parroted your words. Do you think you make yourself look clever by pointing up errors that don't exist?
Perhaps you should go and give whoever taught you language analysis a kicking. They didn't do a very good job.

 

[david dissadent]

What am I trying to achieve?
Let's just say I wanted to see how pathetic your reply would be.

Thanks for not disappointing.

WTF are you on about. You are not defending the disproportionate attacks on Israel your just arsing around. You have not made one substansive point to defend why Israel recieves such massivley disproportionate attention for its human rights abuses compaired to other nations. If one looks at the number of dead versus the number of posts Israel recieves something like 100 or more times more posts than nations like America and Suadan. But you have no valid reasons.

Then why use the example, lackwit?
I'd venture a guess that you used it for emotional impact, even though it lacked relevance.
You do that quite a lot.

Dead versus posts. If you cant understand that fair enough, you dont see the problem.

Why, because you pick out one word, bold it, and therefore attempt to place the entire thrust of the sentence on that one point?
You play a child's game, Mr. dissadent.

You misrepresented my veiws in order to achieve and easier position to argue against. I did not say that anti semitism was the root cause of Israel recieving criticism, I have stated Israel deserves criticism. But the scale of criticism compaired to other nations has to have a reason. I strongly suspect the reason for the disproportionate focus is that Israel is a Jewish nation.

Whose "truth"? There are no absolutes.

Lol.

If I'd repeated it I would have parroted your words.

why? do you not understand that two sentences can be logical equivelant using different words.

 

[ViolentPanda]

WTF are you on about. You are not defending the disproportionate attacks on Israel your just arsing around.

As I didn't intend to defend the attacks on the state of Israel's policies, or to defend the state of Israel's policies themselves, then it appears I've done what I set out to do.

You have not made one substansive point to defend why Israel recieves such massivley disproportionate attention for its human rights abuses compaired to other nations.

You haven't produced a single substantive piece of evidence that shows that there is disproportionate attention placed on the state of Israel.s human rights abuses.
You haven't even bothered to qualify what this alleged disproportion is; have you based it per head of population, as a percentage of total population, as a percentage of all coverage given, what?

Perhaps a few less tantrums and a little more mental effort, mmm?

If one looks at the number of dead versus the number of posts Israel recieves something like 100 or more times more posts than nations like America and Suadan. But you have no valid reasons.

You're making assumptions.
You're contrending that certain claims you have made are fact. Good, that's fine, where's the proof?

Dead versus posts. If you cant understand that fair enough, you dont see the problem.

Oh, I "understand" it easily enough, but as I've repeatedly stated, I don't find the comparison apt, except if one is proceeding from a viewpoint where the use of emotional argument is necessary because factual argument can't be used.

You misrepresented my veiws in order to achieve and easier position to argue against. I did not say that anti semitism was the root cause of Israel recieving criticism...

I haven't claimed that you've said such a thing. I claimed that you've implied it (strongly enough that other posters reached the same conclusion). Now it may be that your ability to debate is so much greater than everyone else on the thread that your high-flown rhetoric went over everybody elses' heads, but equally it may be that your implications around anti-Semitism were so apparent (except, it seems, to yourself) that some people on this thread took that message on board.

I have stated Israel deserves criticism.

To do otherwise would be foolish.

But the scale of criticism compaired to other nations has to have a reason.

Again, where are your comparators?
Let's say that your argument has a modicum of validity. If that is so, then do you believe that, for example, the USA receives less or more opprobrium for it's actions (taking into account for both nation-states their power relations with neighbouring states, size of population, their foreign policies, dominant political ideologies etc)?

I strongly suspect the reason for the disproportionate focus is that Israel is a Jewish nation.

I could equally well say that I suspect thaat the reason for any purported disproportionate focus is that the state of Israel is a Zionist state, and I suspect that in political terms my argument is as tenable as yours.

Lol.

I'm glad you're pleased.

why? do you not understand that two sentences can be logical equivelant using different words.

The fact that they can be logically and/or semantically equivalent doesn't mean that they must be.

 

[david dissadent]

Again, where are your comparators?

Russia in Chechnia, America in Iraq, Sudan in Darfur.

The fact that they can be logically and/or semantically equivalent doesn't mean that they must be.

Good agitprop doesnt lie. It just relentlessly repeats cherrypicked facts.

Oh, and "good agitprop" does lie. By Ommission.

Dear boy, cherry picked facts suggests rather strongly others are omitted.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Why not make a thread about it, David Dissendent.

A thread about the weapons which Israel's Defence Force used in Lebanon and Palestine are hardly relevant to a discussion on the perception that Israel is disproportionately criticised in relation to Chechnya, Sudan, and America. If you want discussions on those, then make threads to discuss them, but don't using the absence of threads in the Middle East forum to detract from this particular debate on weaponry, or attempt to use this thread's existence as proof that Israel is singled out for disproportionate criticism. This is the Middle East forum. We discuss Israel here.

 

[david dissadent]

This is the Middle East forum. We discuss Israel here.

Should that not be:

This is the Middle East forum. We discuss the Middle East here.

 

[invisibleplanet]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article1935945.ece
Much international law does not cover modern uranium weapons because they were not invented when humanitarian rules such as the Geneva Conventions were drawn up and because Western governments still refuse to believe that their use can cause long-term damage to the health of thousands of civilians living in the area of the explosions.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1935931.ece

Time the law was updated.

 

[Wilson]

too true, unfortunatly its unlikely that it will be and even if it were to be then theyd find a way round it, you only have to look at cluster bomb design and usage to see that, where they design (90ish%of) the bomblets to explode upon hitting something hard and then drop them on targets which are soft preventing the bomblets from exploding thus creating mines which are intended to maim rather than kill and produce generations of disabled people whom are inherently less productive and more burdensome, its a long term military strategy, radioactive weapons are really no different but sadly contain the potential to be more effective with a greater degree of deniability.

 

[FruitandNut]

In fairness, if DU munitions had been available to Israel's foes, they would as likely as not have used them. It is probably only a matter of time before such stuff gets into the hands of Hezbollah, likely from an Iranian source.

There is precious little morality in the 'killing game'.

There is an argument that DU gives an edge in armour and reinforced concrete penetration, and on the battlefield there is immense pressure to seek the 'short-term' edge. The 'Apres la Guerre' moral and health stuff tends to fade into the background for the duration. I suppose that Israel for whatever reason may well feel under constant siege.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In fairness, if DU munitions had been available to Israel's foes, they would as likely as not have used them. It is probably only a matter of time before such stuff gets into the hands of Hezbollah, likely from an Iranian source.

"likely from an Iranian source"?
This would be the same Iran who haven't had the opportunity to actually deplete anything but insifnificant amounts of radium via experimental reactors, and the same Iran on whose nuclear materiel and technology the IAEA inspectorate has (as even the US has to admit) a pretty good handle on?

If your "matter of time" is 2 or more decades then there's a possibility, but before then? Only if Sunni Pakistan starts smuggling DU into Shia Iran

There is precious little morality in the 'killing game'.

There is an argument that DU gives an edge in armour and reinforced concrete penetration, and on the battlefield there is immense pressure to seek the 'short-term' edge. The 'Apres la Guerre' moral and health stuff tends to fade into the background for the duration. I suppose that Israel for whatever reason may well feel under constant siege.

Tungsten apparently gives better penetration of RC, spalls less, and doesn't ignite as readily. It's (IMHO) and economic choice. Tungsten is more costly to mine and refine than DU is to mill into ordnance.

 

[Wilson]

In fairness, if DU munitions had been available to Israel's foes, they would as likely as not have used them.

i didnt say they wouldnt, but apart from the chances of them getting any DU being extremely slim, Im not actually discussing DU on this thread but the related topic of a relativly newly weaponised form of Uranium which (if youd like to read the big C&P post i made) is suspected to be either Enriched Uranium, Raw Uranium or possibly a combination of Spent Uranium Nuclear Fuel Rods or Enriched Uranium and Raw Uranium.
In any case it seems that the Uranium material used is significantly more radioactive than straight DU.

 

[likesfish]

I doubt hezzbollah want DU munitions there designed for anti armour use and need a conventional gun on a plane or more usally a tank so they can go very fast and smash through armour.
hezzbolahh don't have any tanks and probably arn't looking to get any soon anti tank guided missiles rn't as fast and rely on shaped charges to destroy armour.
Du was used as its extremely dense and very cheap basically a waste product
nobody thought about the probles it might bring until after the first gulf war and 10 years and the military might start thinking its nt that clever

 

[cemertyone]

. You are not defending the disproportionate attacks on Israel your just arsing around. You have not made one substansive point to defend why Israel recieves such massivley disproportionate attention for its human rights abuses compaired to other nations..

Because fuckwit A nation that makes so much political capitial out of the historical analysis of " Collective punishment" vis a vi places like the Warsaw gettho et al...should not have the stain of implimenting polices that would put the nazis to shame......thats why...
As for your assertion that Isreali treats all its citizens in an equal manner.....well i nearly pissed myself at that one.........