Israelis storm Jericho gaol

[slaar]

Well of course they did, nobody has suggested any other possibility. They also told the PA they would withdraw, and then that they were withdrawing. That's diplomacy. It just backs up the view that there wasn't collusion, the UK and US finally got fed up of not having security for their wardens, pulled out and the Israelis went in, thinking that the Palestinians would iminently free the accused.

 

[moono]

And what does ' increased security' mean to a Palestinian administration that can rarely afford to pay its police force ? Something well below Western standards, I can assure you.

It seems to me that the withdrawal was used to emphasise to Hamas that there are many aspects of Palestinian government that will not function without Western money and cooperation ( as if Hamas didn't know that already ) In short , the US/British collusion with the Israelis was an act of spite at the Hamas victory in which the dead, injured and kidnapped were merely collateral damage.

 

[slaar]

I think you're reading too much into it. On the funding issue, it's not exactly unusual for countries with economies that aren't viable to depend on foreign funding for public expenditures. That's pretty obvious without any need to pull wardens to emphasise it. Security of US and UK civilians is a much more likely reason to pull the wardens. The PA had obligations under the Ramllah agreement that they did not meet, so it's not exactly a shock.

 

[nino_savatte]

I think you're reading too much into it. On the funding issue, it's not exactly unusual for countries with economies that aren't viable to depend on foreign funding for public expenditures. That's pretty obvious without any need to pull wardens to emphasise it. Security of US and UK civilians is a much more likely reason to pull the wardens. The PA had obligations under the Ramllah agreement that they did not meet, so it's not exactly a shock.

Timing: as soon as the "observers" were withdrawn, Israeli armour moved in swiftly. There had to be communication between the US/Uk and Israel for this to happen.

 

[slaar]

Sure, but they also told the PA just before they were going to leave as well; that doesn't add anything to the argument about whether there was collusion or not, unless telling someone you are going to take a course of action is classed as collusion.

The Israelis would have known about the security concerns of the US and UK, they'd been talking about them for months with the PA. They must have been ready to go in if they were removed.

We know there was communication between the US/UK and the PA, so there clearly would have been with Israel too.

 

[nino_savatte]

Sure, but they also told the PA just before they were going to leave as well; that doesn't add anything to the argument about whether there was collusion or not, unless telling someone you are going to take a course of action is classed as collusion.

The Israelis would have known about the security concerns of the US and UK, they'd been talking about them for months with the PA. They must have been ready to go in if they were removed.

We know there was communication between the US/UK and the PA, so there clearly would have been with Israel too.

The Israelis saw their opportunity and seized upon it...as they always do. But given the fact that the US were involved as wardens; and given the fact that the most extreme settlers are American, it would not surprise me in the slightest if the US wardens hadn't tipped off the IDF.

Of course governments will deny collusion or involvement. To admit to such things would be suicidal.

 

[moono]

Analysis; The Brits and US are infidels, as advertised, the IOF are brutes and the Palestinians have been wronged again.


'Brits' and 'US' refers to administrations in the interests of mutual respect.

 

[MikeMcc]

Timing: as soon as the "observers" were withdrawn, Israeli armour moved in swiftly. There had to be communication between the US/Uk and Israel for this to happen.

Or (as a possibility) that Mossad have people in Abbas' office.

 

[tangentlama]

Lol ! I didn't need Israeli confirmation.

What happened to post #58, tl ? I was interested in the Amalek theory.

I returned it to it's place. Feel free to discuss. I think it's relevant politically. Clear signs that the timing fed the religious right-wing, those who supported Ze'evi, as well as Likud. You're not telling me that the UK Govt. is 'culturally unaware' that this was the 12th Anniversary of Baruch 'Amalek' Goldstein, ffs

 

[nino_savatte]

Or (as a possibility) that Mossad have people in Abbas' office.

Less likely I would have thought.

 

[moono]

I returned it to it's place. Feel free to discuss

It's beyond my knowledge to discuss but I've drawn some useful information from it, thank you.

 

[moono]

MikeMcc #24;

All very easy to condemn, but the UK and the US have been complaining to the PA about the security situation there for a long time. The PA were warned that the wardens would be withdrawn if there was no improvement

Mike;

Elective surgery is being delayed to preserve anesthesia for emergencies. The staff of hundreds received last month's paychecks more than two weeks late, and prospects for this month are not encouraging. Patients must beg for blood as transfusions substitute for dialysis because of a lack of necessary drugs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/15/AR2006031502507.html

...whereabouts in the list of Palestinian priorities would you place paying for improved security at a prison ?

 

[MikeMcc]

MikeMcc #24;


Mike;



...whereabouts in the list of Palestinian priorities would you place paying for improved security at a prison ?

And the connection is? How does attacking British Mission and taking a series of hostages persuade the EU that Hamas are serious about anything other than provoking confrontation with Israel. Especially one where there no 'winners', certainly not the patients that you describe.

 

[moono]

Hamas didn't orchestrate the Palestinian reaction . It was a spontaneous reaction on the part of the Palestinian-on-the-spot. It wasn't terrorism, it was protest. All 'hostages' have already been released.

Even so, HOW could anybody even begin to equate this temporary protest with the Israeli action of invasion and murder ? Where is people's sense of balance ?


Also, bear in mind that the Palestinian infrastructure is in that awful described condition WITH European funding. Who can blame Hamas for saying 'shove your funding. We'll get by without it and keep our integrity to boot' ?

 

[TAE]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6031502507.html
...whereabouts in the list of Palestinian priorities would you place paying for improved security at a prison ?

That's a very good point.

And I don't really understand the 'coincidence' of the US/UK guys leaving just as the IDF get ready to go in. It's not as if the US/UK personell (who claim to have feared for their safety) could have prevented anyone being released, as if the IDF had no choice once these westerns had gone.
To me it looks more likely that the IDF told its allies to get their personell out of the firing-line.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Can anyone who knows about this explain why the UK and US were there in the first place? It seems to me that the UK and US were doing the Palestinian Authority a favour by putting their people in harm's way.

Mr Abbas himself admits that he had a week's notice that the UK and US people were being pulled out. The Israel Govt got the same notice, in line with the diplomatic agreement.

The least the Palestinian Authority could do was to send some of their men with guns to protect the UK and US people from other men with guns. Cash strapped as it is, the one thing the Palestinian Authority is not short of is men with guns.

Anyway, none of this takes away from the fact that it's All The Fault Of Bush And Blair.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Can anyone who knows about this explain why the UK and US were there in the first place? It seems to me that the UK and US were doing the Palestinian Authority a favour by putting their people in harm's way.

Mr Abbas himself admits that he had a week's notice that the UK and US people were being pulled out. The Israel Govt got the same notice, in line with the diplomatic agreement.

The least the Palestinian Authority could do was to send some of their men with guns to protect the UK and US people from other men with guns. Cash strapped as it is, the one thing the Palestinian Authority is not short of is men with guns.

Anyway, none of this takes away from the fact that it's All The Fault Of Bush And Blair.

the reason they were there was under the intial agreement to set up the Pa to take over from the PLO was that international aide would help maintain thing until a palestinian government was formed... which has subsiqunetly been blocked leaving and administrative organiseation in charge of a country...

 

[Fullyplumped]

the reason they were there was under the intial agreement to set up the Pa to take over from the PLO was that international aide would help maintain thing until a palestinian government was formed... which has subsiqunetly been blocked leaving and administrative organiseation in charge of a country...

Thank you.

 

[tangentlama]

Typical. The US craps on about "freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law" as if it actually practised these things itself. Yet when the time comes to stand up and be counted it is nowhere to be seen but behind Israel.

Between 1993 and 1996, the US 'brokered' a set of informal, unwritten "understandings" between Israel and Hizballah, which governed the conflict between July 1993 and April 1996 in South Lebanon with each side committed itself to refrain from attacking civilians—unless the other side had attacked civilians first. Thus the civilian populations of southern Lebanon and northern Israel were rendered pawns in the hands of the belligerents.
http://store.yahoo.com/hrwpubs/is.html

But before that,

1988 - present: Undercover units of the Israeli army have been responsible for over 120 killings in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip since 1988. Many of the victims were shot while posing no serious imminent threat to soldiers or others. Through interviews with soldiers, court transcripts, analysis of the open-fire regulations and seventeen case studies from 1992-1993, we charge in A License to Kill that unjustified killings by undercover units are not aberrations; rather they constitute a pattern that could only continue with the complicity of the Israeli government. That pattern has continued during Yitzhak Rabin’s first year as prime minister. The officially stated mission of these units, whose members frequently disguise themselves as Palestinians (Mista'aravim), is to apprehend armed fugitives "with blood on their hands." In fact, many of the Palestinians killed by the undercover units are youths who are neither "wanted" nor carrying firearms, and who are shot when they are posing no immediate danger to the lives of others. We contend that Israeli soldiers who participate in the search for "wanted" and masked activists routinely violate both international norms governing the use of lethal force as well as the rules of engagement that the Israeli army professes to apply in the occupied territories. In fact, a parallel, officially denied set of open-fire regulations seems to have come into being that gives these soldiers permission to kill with virtual impunity.
http://store.yahoo.com/hrwpubs/is.html

And a report from Professor Avraham Oz of Haifa University in April 2005 proves that the use of Arabised Undercover agents to provoke harsh retaliation by Israeli Defence Force against Palestinian and Israeli civilians in peaceful protest marches:

"While extreme religious zealots are rioting against the building of a new Israeli motorway, because they think its route collides with some ancient Jewish graves (were those Muslim ones, none would protest); and while the settlers are gathering masses of demonstrators to proclaim civil disobedience against Sharon's disengagement plan, where does the Israeli police reveal its genuine creativity? A fairly modest joint Jewish-Arab demonstration against the bulldozers building the evil wall is infiltrated by undercover soldiers clad as Arabs; At a certain point the undercover provocateurs start throwing rocks at the police; the police answers by throwing tear-gas at the demonstrators. The rest is anything but silence: several demonstrators, including MK Mohammad Barak are injured, other arrested. The police has brought back law and order to my country."
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0504/S00301.htm

A report from June 2005 continues the condemnation of the impunity with which Israel acts against civilians:

Israel has failed in its legal obligation to investigate civilian deaths and injuries that result from the use of lethal force in policing and law enforcement contexts, such as controlling demonstrations or enforcing curfews, and in combat situations when there is prima facie evidence or credible allegations that soldiers deliberately harmed civilians or failed to take all feasible precautions to protect them from harm.
http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/iopt0605text.pdf

 

[nino_savatte]

But before that,

And a report from Professor Avraham Oz of Haifa University in April 2005 proves that the use of Arabised Undercover agents to provoke harsh retaliation by Israeli Defence Force against Palestinian and Israeli civilians in peaceful protest marches:
A report from June 2005 continues the condemnation of the impunity with which Israel acts against civilians:

I can't say I'm too surprised. Where's Dore Gold's hand in all of this?

 

[tangentlama]

what about Dore Gold, nino?

PRESS RELEASE



Gush Shalom Press release, March 14, 2006

In cooperation with the governments of the US and Britain, whose removal of their observers from the Jericho Prison proves them utterly incapable of any mediation role between Israelis and Palestinians, PM Olmert and Defence Minister Mofaz are carrying out a provocation which will only exacerbate the conflict and hatred. Theirs will be the full responsibility for bloodshed of Israelis and Palestinians, in the course of the Jericho provocation itself and in the cycle of retaliation upon retaliation which may follow.

It should be noted that the people which the army was sent to Jericho to capture or kill are marked out because, when taking revenge for the targeted killing of their own leader, they did not kill innocent civilians. They selected Rehav’am Ze’evi, a general turned politician who was the foremost of Israeli racists and who built a political career upon crude hate propaganda. A targeted killing…”

For further details:
Adam Keller, Gush Shalom spokesperson +972-(0)3-5565804, +972-(0)506-709603

 

[tangentlama]

UPDATE: Israel drops Jericho Jail trial due to lack of evidence

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4948262.stm

 

[moono]

That's never stopped imprisonments in the past.


Although the article mentions the 'brief kidnapping' of a few suits there's no mention of the men murdered or critically injured by the IOF during the attack.

 

[tangentlama]

The rumours in Israel at the time of Ze'evi's assassination were that he had been taken out by Israel, and not Palestine, although on the 'cui bono' front, it benefitted both.

Regardung your sensistivites about those who were untargeted, yet lost their lives, not fighting, but caught up in the fight, States are rarely sensitive to the relatives of those who were killed by 'official action'. Whilst I also experience great anger at these unjustices, Israel's not unique in unjust behaviour among states - it's an illness which afflicts all of them, except, maybe the very old ones, such as Iceland. Israel, as one of the newest states (alongside Pakistan), isn't out of diapers yet despite it's revisionist Zionist lineage. Just so long as you remember, that it was conflict similar to this that pushed the Hebrews into exile from the Levant in the first place, and attitudes to immigrant communities and hatred of the different which drove them back there. This state of return/conflict could be the outcome in 2,000 years for any other exiled group or tribe of people, so it's important to be aware of the processes of migration.

 

[moono]

States are rarely sensitive to the relatives of those who were killed by 'official action'.

News sources should be. It should be their primary concern because nothing else stands in the way of us, the public, and killers on the government payroll.
Why would the BBC neglect to mention those murders whilst remembering a few hours of 'kidnap' ? Why are those murders considered unimportant whilst the 'kidnap' is featured ? Why is it that, after all that has happened, the majority of Israeli atrocities are not reported in the western press ?

Who is maintaining public sympathy for these IOF thugs and their Zionist masters ?

 

[tangentlama]

Go and read Maus, and then you'll understand what happened to an exiled people, then go and try to tell Europe and America who used a religion's prophecies (how Nazi-like is that?) to fuel a political/economic 'cause', but this exploitation is nothing new!

'Great' Empires like the Hellenistic and Persian achieved their victories by collusion with religious and local militarial leaders as much as by 'shock and awe' style conquering and subduing, but the nobler days of hand-to-hand combat has gone, and Leaders are careless with their men and women's lives as killing goes industrial, then scientific.

Your problem largely seems to be with human nature, and not with just one fledgling nation's manifestation of it.

 

[moono]

Your problem largely seems to be with human nature, and not with just one fledgling nation's manifestation of it.

I might listen to that argument with regard to misdemeanour, but not fascist activity. There is no excuse.
Civilised societies have special laws to deal with minors and juveniles. Israel has already 'spent' the allowances made by the international society with regard to being 'underage'. Sixty years old is old enough to know better, even for countries.

 

[rachamim18]

Good!!! Justice Prevails... finally!!!!

Nino: "Most extreme 'Settlers' are American." Uh, WRONG. Actually, the most extreme are those with roots in Arab lands. the most vehement anti-Arabs among Israeli Jews are those Jews with roots in Arab lands. Kahnism DID start in America but the "Settler" movement started before Rav Kahane even changed his name.

Mikemcc: Of course Israeli Intel [not Mossad as their mandate is different] has an asset or two within the PA inner circle.

Moono: Where is the "shove your funding" now? they are groveling even with the 200 million pledged [thus far] by their fellow Arabs and Muslims.

FullyPlumped: the UK and US were there as part of the interim agreement on turning over Jericho and 5 other key "West Bank" areas to PA control last summer. It was supposed to be transitional.

Tangent: Love the Gush Shalom piece,...All those fringe groups offer me a much needed laugh or two. Peace as long as its peace for one side, and of course it is not the side oftheir homeland, their people, their family but the aside of a people that want them destroyed. I will never forget Arafat's words when P. Solidarity decided to become human shields in Bet'lechem: "Who are these assholes?" that about sums it up for me.

Oh, and 4000 years of documented CONTINUOUS Jewish presence is not revisionism. It is history. What IS revisionism though is the Arab fallacy of dominion over the land. They ruled for 22 years in the 8th century. Christain Europeans have more of a claim over the land than any Arab ever did, winged horses aside.

 

[tangentlama]

Sorry Rachamim, I ought to have made that clearer, I don't mean to dispute presence, I mentioned first the Zionist revisions of history, because those are the ones used in US to 'justify', and set the pattern, but also, the Palestinians' have their own misnomers and misrepresentations. I am most annoyed about Israel though, since a scholarly people ought to know better, however, a people in absolute, and i mean absolute fear for their own lives, and the lives of everyone in their community cannot be underestimated in the lengths they are willing to go to, in order to protect their tribe.

Two Professors (Israeli and Palestinian) have recently put together a document with the variations alongside each other, for age 14-16 year olds in Palestine and Israel. That's good progress.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

Moono: Where is the "shove your funding" now? they are groveling even with the 200 million pledged [thus far] by their fellow Arabs and Muslims.

You are almost the perfect resistance recruitment poster, a callous liar with a desire to see Palestinians collectively punished. Thank you.