Israelis being proud of their parsimoniousness

[phildwyer]

Whatever. My basic point is that Brainaddict's OP was at best insensitive, and at worst unconsciously anti-semitic. Your description of it as "cackhanded" is probably fair enough, although I don't know Brainaddict and so can't judge properly. In any case, the appropriate response to such a post is to virtually slap Brainaddict upside his damnfool head and tell him not to be such a tit. Not to get behind him and possibly even egg him on to yet further foolishness, which is what you did. I repeat that you should be ashamed of yourself and, from your responses above, I'd guess that you are. Good.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Whatever. My basic point is that Brainaddict's OP was at best insensitive, and at worst unconsciously anti-semitic. Your description of it as "cackhanded" is probably fair enough, although I don't know Brainaddict and so can't judge properly. In any case, the appropriate response to such a post is to virtually slap Brainaddict upside his damnfool head and tell him not to be such a tit. Not to get behind him and possibly even egg him on to yet further foolishness, which is what you did. I repeat that you should be ashamed of yourself and, from your responses above, I'd guess that you are. Good.

Guess what you like, assume what you like, pashkudniak. Your opinion on this, as on most things, is utterly irrelevant to me.

Still no bibliography of the "plenty of reference books" you claim Hitler wrote, I see.

 

[phildwyer]

Guess what you like, assume what you like, pashkudniak. Your opinion on this, as on most things, is utterly irrelevant to me.

Oh, of course, I can tell that by the three lengthy posts of anxious, hand-wringing self-justification above. Meshugganahkopf.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh, of course, I can tell that by the three lengthy posts of anxious, hand-wringing self-justification above. Meshugganahkopf.

Handwringing? Hardly.

More shaking my head at your (usual) arrogance and self-righteousness.

The lengthy posts are for a reason, the reason being to answer your assinine accusations and pronouncements point by point.

I note that, instead of rebutting, you chose the "yeah, whatever" approach. I can't say that your action surprised me. It's of a piece with the cowardice you've displayed on other threads when your attempts at ntellectual engagement have been shown up for the sham they are.

As for my being crazy in the head, yes...and your point is?

BY THE WAY, I'M STILL WAITING FOR THE LIST OF "PLENTY OF REFERENCE BOOKS" YOU CLAIM THAT HITLER WROTE, PHIL. PERHAPS YOU SHOULD ADMIT THAT THEY DON'T EXIST?

 

[phildwyer]

Right, let's clear this up once and for all, Panda. I've had enough of your evasions. Do you agree with Brainaddict that Jews are more "parsimonious" than Gentiles?

YES/NO.

 

[fractionMan]

I'm with VP on this one.

I'm from devon and frequently drink cider,speak like a farmer and stick single strands of wheat between my teeth and go oooh-aar. And guess what? I'm proud of it. The wurzels are a great band, marrying your cousin is normal and the extra fingers and toes come in handy, thank you very much. It's my heritage and I wouldn't want some twat like you defending me from outsiders.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Right, let's clear this up once and for all, Panda. I've had enough of your evasions. Do you agree with Brainaddict that Jews are more "parsimonious" than Gentiles?

YES/NO.

To be fair thats not at all what he said. Brainaddict said that in his experience, it appears not as though Israelis are more parsimonious, but that some appear to have a sense of pride about being parsimonious. Thats two different things.

 

[phildwyer]

I'm with VP on this one.

I'm from devon and frequently drink cider,speak like a farmer and stick single strands of wheat between my teeth and go oooh-aar. And guess what? I'm proud of it. The wurzels are a great band, marrying your cousin is normal and the extra fingers and toes come in handy, thank you very much. It's my heritage and I wouldn't want some twat like you defending me from outsiders.

While I've no doubt that your self-description is accurate, you miss the point. No-one is likely to try to exterminate you for being a drunken Wurzel. Or even to beat you up for it. But plenty of people would like to do those things, and have very often done them, to "tight-fisted" Jews.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Right, let's clear this up once and for all, Panda. I've had enough of your evasions. Do you agree with Brainaddict that Jews are more "parsimonious" than Gentiles?

YES/NO.

I've already answered that particular question at least twice on this thread, and your having had enough of my (imagined by you) evasions is immaterial.

If you're unable to divine my opinion from what I've written, that's your problem, kucker.

Oh, and I don't respond well to being drawn into choosing a position from a binary opposition, it's a tactic of the intellectually bankrupt, because neither opposition is accurate to the degree necessary to give a rounded answer.

And just to repeat:

BY THE WAY, I'M STILL WAITING FOR THE LIST OF "PLENTY OF REFERENCE BOOKS" YOU CLAIM THAT HITLER WROTE, PHIL. PERHAPS YOU SHOULD ADMIT THAT THEY DON'T EXIST?

 

[ViolentPanda]

To be fair thats not at all what he said. Brainaddict said that in his experience, it appears not as though Israelis are more parsimonious, but that some appear to have a sense of pride about being parsimonious. Thats two different things.

Phil hasn't quite been able to grasp the distinction. He's painted himself (yet again) into a corner, and now he's (yet again) blustering in an attempt to draw attention from his stupidity.

 

[phildwyer]

To be fair thats not at all what he said. Brainaddict said that in his experience, it appears not as though Israelis are more parsimonious, but that some appear to have a sense of pride about being parsimonious. Thats two different things.

Well actually, he said that "a lot" of "Jewish Israelis" were "parsimonious," and that pride in being "parsimonious" was "widespread" and "common" among them. I truly don't think he meant any harm though. I think he has an unconscious assumption that Jews are tight-fisted, and that as a result he perceived them as being so. When he saw a Jew haggling fiercely, he *noticed* this, and he drew a causal connection between the haggling and the religion of the haggler: because it corresponded to his presuppositions about what Jews are like. When he saw a Jew giving money to a beggar, he may have noticed it--as in seen it with his eyes--but he did not connect the fact of giving with the fact of the giver's religion: because it contradicted his presuppositions about what Jews are like. That's how racial and ethnic prejudices work, that's how they come to seem plausible.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Well actually, he said that "a lot" of "Jewish Israelis" were "parsimonious," and that pride in being "parsimonious" was "widespread" and "common" among them.

Well, thats strange, cos when reading...

On my travels I've discovered that a lot of jewish Israelis are very proud of being tight with their money. I've talked to a couple of them about it and they gave the impression that its a widespread point of pride among jewish people in Israel and it's quite a common topic of conversation to discuss how little money you've spent on this or that - some people seem to get quite competitive about it.

I don't actually get a single value judgment from Brainaddict about Jewish Israelis being thrifty, just that a lot of the Israelis he has personally met appear to be proud of the fact that they think they are. He's talked about the perceptions of the Israelis he actually spoke to about it, who didn't seem offended at all and in fact offered their own perception that it was a trait to be proud of. OK, perhaps he could have worded it slightly better, but I don't think he went anything near writing anything to justify your screams of racism.

I truly don't think he meant any harm though. ...... That's how racial and ethnic prejudices work, that's how they come to seem plausible.

Thanks for the lecture, I know very well why prejudices form and are maintained thank you very much. None of that really fits in to what the OP said now though, did it? I'd also be a bit careful about calling posters racist on here on the basis of twisting their words on one post (which I can tell you Brainaddict isn't).

Btw, is it just coincidental that your complete outrage at this just happens to be timed with another thread where Brainaddict's been continually challenging your rather long winded rather arrogant arguments designed to make all atheists turn around and say "oooo, halleluiah, I've seen the light?"

 

[phildwyer]

I've already answered that particular question at least twice on this thread, and your having had enough of my (imagined by you) evasions is immaterial.

If you're unable to divine my opinion from what I've written, that's your problem, kucker.

To be perfectly frank, the answers you have given on this thread so far strongly suggest to me that you *do* agree with Brainaddict. Which seems like a rather odd position for you to take, if I may say so, and makes me wonder about your motives, tukheslecher. Once again, I offer you the opportunity to put me right on this. Do you agree with Brainaddict's opinion regarding the pecuniary attitudes of the Red Sea Pedestrians?

YES/NO.

 

[ViolentPanda]

To be perfectly frank, the answers you have given on this thread so far strongly suggest to me that you *do* agree with Brainaddict. Which seems like a rather odd position for you to take, if I may say so, and makes me wonder about your motives, tukheslecher. Once again, I offer you the opportunity to put me right on this. Do you agree with Brainaddict's opinion regarding the pecuniary attitudes of the Red Sea Pedestrians?

YES/NO.

Read post #58, answer 1 and post #60, schlemiel.

Once you've done that then please POST UP YOUR LIST OF "PLENTY OF REFERENCE BOOKS" YOU CLAIM THAT HITLER WROTE.

 

[phildwyer]

I don't actually get a single value judgment from Brainaddict about Jewish Israelis being thrifty, just that a lot of the Israelis he has personally met appear to be proud of the fact that they think they are. He's talked about the perceptions of the Israelis he actually spoke to about it, who didn't seem offended at all and in fact offered their own perception that it was a trait to be proud of. OK, perhaps he could have worded it slightly better, but I don't think he went anything near writing anything to justify your screams of racism.

Sparrow, *anyone* reading Brainaddict's OP will find clear evidence of unconscious anti-semitic assumptions. I mean, COME ON, he begins by saying: "On my travels I've discovered that a lot of Jewish Israelis are very proud of being tight with their money." You don't think that's a bit naff? Slightly tasteless? A trifle insensitive? Indicative of a woeful ignorance of twentieth-century history? Suggestive of a blithe, happy confidence in his own perception combined with a lamentable lack of awareness of how such light-hearted pronouncements can have very serious consequences?

As for how the Israelis he talked to about his opinion responded, obviously I'll have to take his word for it. I do know, however, that many Israelis enjoy nothing more than taking the piss out of clueless goyim who take an interest in their fascinating cultural idiosyncracies. But I can't say for sure, because I wasn't there. I certainly wish I had been though: "I say Jews, I can't help noticing that you chaps are rather tight with the old moolah, what's all this about then, eh..."

 

[Brainaddict]

good god, I really wish you could close your own threads. I do believe that everyone on this thread has made their stance clear and I don't think further debate is going to go anywhere new.

 

[ViolentPanda]

good god, I really wish you could close your own threads. I do believe that everyone on this thread has made their stance clear and I don't think further debate is going to go anywhere new.

Aye, phil believes what phil believes (including some utter tosh about Adolf Hitler having written "plenty of reference books"). Fact and reality aren't going to change that.

IIRC you can ask a mod to close the thread for you.

 

[phildwyer]

Aye, phil believes what phil believes (including some utter tosh about Adolf Hitler having written "plenty of reference books"). Fact and reality aren't going to change that.

Panda, I am of course very well aware of the limited nature of Herr Hitler's literary output. My point was that the attitudes expressed by Brainaddict in his OP, as well as subsequently, are not a million miles away from the young Adolf's "discovery" of Jews' tight-fistedness while "on his travels." And before anyone gets excited, I'm *not* comparing Brainaddict to Hitler.

 

[chegrimandi]

On my travels I've discovered that a lot of jewish Israelis are very proud of being tight with their money. I've talked to a couple of them about it and they gave the impression that its a widespread point of pride among jewish people in Israel and it's quite a common topic of conversation to discuss how little money you've spent on this or that - some people seem to get quite competitive about it.

Now given that being tight has historically been one of the slanders thrown at jewish people in Europe I'm interested to know how this developed. Was it some kind of reaction to the slander? Of course people are free to identify themselves in any way they want but I do find it a slightly strange reaction - if that's what it is.

Are there other examples of hated minorities deliberately taking on the qualities attributed to them by their enemies? Is it a kind of 'well if everyone thinks that about us anyway we might as well be like that' attitude, that then morphs into a point of self-definition?
I'd be interested if anyone can cast any light on the history of this - jewish people particularly.

all the refugees I've met love to steal our jobs and shag our women. Literally. They can't stop themselves.

Honest.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda, I am of course very well aware of the limited nature of Herr Hitler's literary output.

Which is why it was stupid of you to make the claim you did.
If you'd said "pamphlets" or "published speeches" I'd have agreed with you. There's still a thriving trade in Hitleria of that nature, unfortunately, but "reference books"?

My point was that the attitudes expressed by Brainaddict in his OP, as well as subsequently, are not a million miles away from the young Adolf's "discovery" of Jews' tight-fistedness while "on his travels." And before anyone gets excited, I'm *not* comparing Brainaddict to Hitler.

They are, however, contextually different. I doubt that (even back in the first decade of the 20th century) young Schickelgruber would have ever travelled in Israel and spent time talking to the local Jews. "Mein Kampf" makes it painfully obvious that the only culture that Hitler had any interest in was a Germanic one. In contrast Brainaddict was travelling in Israel because he wanted to be there and experience that particular culture.

 

[phildwyer]

They are, however, contextually different. I doubt that (even back in the first decade of the 20th century) young Schickelgruber would have ever travelled in Israel and spent time talking to the local Jews. "Mein Kampf" makes it painfully obvious that the only culture that Hitler had any interest in was a Germanic one. In contrast Brainaddict was travelling in Israel because he wanted to be there and experience that particular culture.

I don't think Brainaddict was in Israel, was he? I thought he was talking about Israelis he'd met in India or Thailand or somewhere? Not that that would have made his comments any more excusable, in my view.

With regard to Hitler, I was thinking of the passages when he's just arrived in Vienna, and he suddenly notices that there are all these black-clothed, hook-nosed types around. He is actually *very* interested in them, and interacts with them quite a lot. It won't surprise you to learn that his perception of them is in exact accordance with the anti-semitic stereotypes in which he has been brought up. In particular, he finds them "parsimonious," they haggle all the time, refuse to offer him a fair price for his obviously brilliant paintings etc etc.

What's interesting is that this isn't propaganda: he really, honestly, sees them that way. He'd be surprised, even insulted, if someone told him that he was prejudiced. If they had the Internet then, he'd probably have posted a wide-eyed message to a discussion board about it. Then he'd have been rightly flamed to bits, promptly seen the light, and world history would have taken a very different course. See, this thread is a public service...

 

[Brainaddict]

I don't think Brainaddict was in Israel, was he? I thought he was talking about Israelis he'd met in India or Thailand or somewhere? Not that that would have made his comments any more excusable, in my view.

I was talking more specifically about the many Israelis I met in Asia, yes. I have been to Israel but was only passing through really.

 

[chegrimandi]

I was talking more specifically about the many Israelis I met in Asia, yes. I have been to Israel but was only passing through really.

most backpackers are fairly tight with their money aren't they? Thats the nature of backpacking.....do it on a budget....maybe thats why they were proud of their lack of spending, or maybe as you say they were just tight fisted shylockin' yiddo's ?

 

[phildwyer]

I have been to Israel but was only passing through really.

Quite right too--get out while you've still got the shirt on your back.

 

[Brainaddict]

Quite right too--get out while you've still got the shirt on your back.

Damn right!!

 

[Crispy]

It would be awful to be stuck somewhere so sunny without adequate sun protection. You'd burn! Owy!

 

[phildwyer]

It would be awful to be stuck somewhere so sunny without adequate sun protection. You'd burn! Owy!

Oy gevalt, yet.

 

[mellowmoose]

why is it not possible to have a simple, and quite possibly fruitful, discussion on U75 without the resident fruitcakes ruining it.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

why is it not possible to have a simple, and quite possibly fruitful, discussion on U75 without the resident fruitcakes ruining it.

Where?

*looks round*

Bigfish isn't here! Nor for that matter are any jets with pods under the wings so we're probably safe for a short time.

 

[seanie]

Hey be careful guys. Remember that although religiously speaking the israelis are jews they are actually kazars. The closest living relations to biblical jews are actually the Palestinians.
What a f*cked up world.

How the hell do you know that? Done the world genetic survey of jewish people, have you? Don't think there were many arabs about that part of the world in biblical times (palestinian or otherwise).