Israelis being proud of their parsimoniousness

[Brainaddict]

On my travels I've discovered that a lot of Irish people are very proud of how much they drink. They gave the impression that its a widespread point of pride among Irish people in Ireland and it's quite a common topic of conversation to discuss how much beer you've drunk - some Irish people seem to get quite competitive about it. I've talked to a couple of them about it, but they told me to fuck off. Can anyone expain why?

Well if it was true that irish people (a) drink a lot and (b) were proud of it (I dont' know if either is true myself) I for one would be interested in the reasons for it. Just because I'm interested in the world and the way people think.

And if you would read a bit more carefully you would see that Israelis didn't tell me to fuck off when we talked about it - it was a couple of them that explained to me how widespread this is.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It actually derives from their being banned from most types of labour over much of Europe for centuries and so being forced into relying on activities such as money lending - it predates the Nazis by a long long way.

no no the jews didn't exist before the nazis everyone know that...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thinking about it, it seems most likely that the chain of cause and effect is more likely to be that jewish people were forced to be thrifty because they were denied opportunities (and as ba pointed out were also forced into moneylending jobs) - there was then anti-semitic distortion of this. So the present-day emphasis on thrift is probably just a continuation of the thriftiness necessary in the past, rather than reflecting anything to do with the anti-semitic stereotypes thrown at them.

For my great-grandmother's generation (the wave of Jews who fled central and eastern Europe and Russia in the late Victorian era) the habit thrift wasn't a choice but a necessity. It's also a habit that most of her descendents still have, even though our circumstances are nowhere near as straitened. However far removed you are from your personal history and the culture you were raised in (and I mean familial rather than ethnic culture), you still carry the lessons you were taught with you.

Oh, and if I find a bargain, then of course I'll boast about how much I've saved, and flaunt my money-saving acumen!

As for phildwyer's comments, it's like being savaged by a toothless lamb that thinks that it is a wolf, isn't it?

 

[phildwyer]

Actually the Jewish love of haggling and bartering goes back to the very foundations of the religion. Notice here how Abraham "Jews down" God's initial price, in a manner strikingly reminiscent of his modern descendents on the Kho San Road: "Fifty baht? You crazy man..."

[23] And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
[24] Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
[25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
[26] And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
[27] And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
[28] Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
[29] And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
[30] And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
[31] And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
[32] And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

 

[888]

Mohammed also negotiates with Allah the number of times Muslims have to pray a day, down from fifty to five.

 

[phildwyer]

Mohammed also negotiates with Allah the number of times Muslims have to pray a day, down from fifty to five.

See? All these foriegn religions are the same. I mean, you don't see Jesus haggling over the number of loaves and fishes do you?

 

[JWH]

Three for the price of one in Christianity!

 

[bugsy7]

On my travels I've discovered that a lot of Irish people are very proud of how much they drink. They gave the impression that its a widespread point of pride among Irish people in Ireland and it's quite a common topic of conversation to discuss how much beer you've drunk - some Irish people seem to get quite competitive about it. I've talked to a couple of them about it, but they told me to fuck off. Can anyone expain why?

Because we Irish suss people like you very fast.

MsG

 

[Random]

it was a couple of them that explained to me how widespread this is.

As gurrier has pointed out, driving a bargain is a travellers' trait. In order for your observation to hold water, you'd have to have shown that israelis do this more than other travellers. So far all I can see so far is self-fulfilling generalisations, followed by an attempt to generalise a hyppothesis based on this.

 

[phildwyer]

The thing is, people who have racist or other biases will filter their experience to fit their prejudices. They truly will perceive certain groups of people as behaving in the ways that they assume such people generally behave. That's how stereotypes are perpetuated.

 

[Brainaddict]

As gurrier has pointed out, driving a bargain is a travellers' trait. In order for your observation to hold water, you'd have to have shown that israelis do this more than other travellers.

As I pointed out I don't have proof - because it's based on a year or more of travelling around and with Israelis - and I didn't carry a dictaphone with me. Urban75 being the way it is I guess it was my mistake to start this thread without evidence to reference.

 

[Macabre]

The Islaelis I met in India said its just their culture to haggel but they were just as free with their money, if not more so, than every other traveler - hiring Enfields, buying lots of clothes, eating at nice resteraunts, etc. I dont think they were as bad as anyone else, they just dont give in as easy as us.

 

[phildwyer]

As I pointed out I don't have proof - because it's based on a year or more of travelling around and with Israelis - and I didn't carry a dictaphone with me. Urban75 being the way it is I guess it was my mistake to start this thread without evidence to reference.

Well, there are plenty of reference books easily available to back up your claims. Trouble is, most of them are written by A. Hitler.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, there are plenty of reference books easily available to back up your claims. Trouble is, most of them are written by A. Hitler.

Care to post up the Hitler fella's bibliography beyond "Mein Kampf", phil?

I'd love to know about the "plenty of reference books" he wrote.

BTW, non-authenticated mysteriously-appearing diaries are NOT counted.

 

[phildwyer]

Care to post up the Hitler fella's bibliography beyond "Mein Kampf", phil?

I'd love to know about the "plenty of reference books" he wrote.

BTW, non-authenticated mysteriously-appearing diaries are NOT counted.

Right you--what the *fuck* do you think you are doing by even *appearing* to endorse the myth that Jews are "tight-fisted?" In order to score a cheap point on an Internet message board, was that it? That's disgusting mate, and I'm sure that, deep down, you know it.

 

[phildwyer]

I'm serious, Violentpanda, I can't let you get away with this. Brainaddict's a child, perhaps a fool, but he didn't mean any harm and doesn't know any better. You do know better. You know that when someone says something like this, you must put them right--nicely or not, as you prefer, but you *must* put them right. You seem to prefer to lend them aid and succor. There's a thing that I'm trying *very* hard to resist calling you, I'm sure you know what it is...

 

[revol68]

phildwyer shut the fuck up you muppet. This false indignation is laugable.

And I would say that in general the Irish do enjoy a drink and yes they do tend to get quite competitive about it, something they share with the british. It might be a stereotype and it may have been used to denigrate the irish historically but there can be no doubting it is based on atleast partial reality. I mean when we went to spain and one of our mates was being sick in the bog, a load of spanish students phoned an ambulance, we had to explain that everything was okay and it was no big deal.

 

[phildwyer]

phildwyer shut the fuck up you muppet. This false indignation is laugable.

And I would say that in general the Irish do enjoy a drink and yes they do tend to get quite competitive about it, something they share with the british. It might be a stereotype and it may have been used to denigrate the irish historically but there can be no doubting it is based on atleast partial reality. I mean when we went to spain and one of our mates was being sick in the bog, a load of spanish students phoned an ambulance, we had to explain that everything was okay and it was no big deal.

The difference is, no one has tried to exterminate the Irish for being pissheads, at least within living memory. But someone has tried, and come fairly close to succeeding, to exterminate the Jews for being money-grabbers. That's the difference. Volia la difference. Can you understand it?

 

[citydreams]

But someone has tried, and come fairly close to succeeding, to exterminate the Jews for being money-grabbers.

lol.. which history book did you get that out of?

 

[phildwyer]

lol.. which history book did you get that out of?

Mein Kampf. Take a look. You'll find that Hitler is quite vocal on the subject of Jews' alleged avarice and parsimony. As verification, he claims, at some length, to have personally observed such avarice and parsimony "on his travels."

 

[citydreams]

Mein Kampf. Take a look. You'll find that Hitler is quite vocal on the subject of Jews' alleged avarice and parsimony. As verification, he claims, at some length, to have personally observed such avarice and parsimony "on his travels."

that's one book I won't bother reading.. but cheers though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Right you--what the *fuck* do you think you are doing by even *appearing* to endorse the myth that Jews are "tight-fisted?" In order to score a cheap point on an Internet message board, was that it? That's disgusting mate, and I'm sure that, deep down, you know it.

You ask what I'm doing.

I'll tell you.

I'm discussing the fact that my people, for better or worse, have a reputation for parsimoniousness. I used the personal example of my great-grandmother (a Ukrainian Jew) to highlight exactly why some Jews may have developed a reputation for parsimoniousness: THEY HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO BE PARSIMONIOUS.

If your narrow mind can't see that stereotypes are usually constructed around a true core (whatever the circumstances that construct that truth) or you need to "win" a point that badly I truly feel sorry for you.

Oh, and where's this bibliography of the "plenty of reference books" Hitler wrote?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm serious, Violentpanda, I can't let you get away with this. Brainaddict's a child, perhaps a fool, but he didn't mean any harm and doesn't know any better. You do know better. You know that when someone says something like this, you must put them right--nicely or not, as you prefer, but you *must* put them right. You seem to prefer to lend them aid and succor. There's a thing that I'm trying *very* hard to resist calling you, I'm sure you know what it is...

You're either calling me an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew, both of which labels you can attach to me to your heart's content. neither of them are accurate, but then accuracy isn't something you appear to have much truck with, is it?

What you're attempting to claim is that any reference to a particular trait (parsimoniousness) within a particular culture (the Jewish culture) should be either ignored or reviled because of its negative connotations. The problem with doing so is that at best to do so is "avoidance behaviour", at worst it is pussilanimous self-righteousness.

The only way to properly address the issue is head-on, to admit that yes, MANY peoples take pride in their thrift, and it happens to be a trait in some elements of Jewry.

As to your reference to "Mein Kampf", I can only assume it is another book you're pretending to have read rather than having actually studied it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

that's one book I won't bother reading.. but cheers though.

It's worth reading if you want to begin to understand why the holocaust of the Jews occurred. Thoroughly unpleasant, but worth reading as a particularly virulent statement of the spirit of its place and time.

 

[phildwyer]

I'm discussing the fact that my people, for better or worse, have a reputation for parsimoniousness. I used the personal example of my great-grandmother (a Ukrainian Jew) to highlight exactly why some Jews may have developed a reputation for parsimoniousness: THEY HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO BE PARSIMONIOUS.

Bollocks. This is certainly no more true of Jews than it would have been of their Slavic neighbours, and its less true of Jews than of blacks. And yet Jews are the ones who are labelled as "tight-fisted." You know why? Anti-semitism, that's why. To pretend that anti-semitic prejudices like this have *any* basis in reality is to give them aid and succor. Jews (well everyone, but *especially* Jews) should stand up to anti-semitism in all its forms, even ones as apparently innocuous as this thread. I can't believe that you are willing, not only to fail to challenge Brainaddict's claim that Jews are more tight with money than other people, but actually to suggest that he is right. As I said before, you should be ashamed of yourself, and I suspect that, although you'll never admit it here, you are.

 

[phildwyer]

It's worth reading if you want to begin to understand why the holocaust of the Jews occurred. Thoroughly unpleasant, but worth reading as a particularly virulent statement of the spirit of its place and time.

It is indeed worth reading, it should be *compulsory* reading. If Brainaddict had read it he wouldn't have come out with the crap he did. Because he would have found Hitler saying (and I paraphrase from memory, but its pretty accurate): "I'd never really noticed the Jews until I began to travel around central Europe. And then the first thing I noticed was that Jews seemed to be particularly tight with their money, that they would often boast about the deals and swindles they had pulled off, they seemed almost to compete with each other in haggling." And if Brainaddict had seen Hitler saying this, he would not have said it himself, because he knows that Hitler is a Bad Man. And then we'd all have been spared a great deal of aggravation.

 

[phildwyer]

What you're attempting to claim is that any reference to a particular trait (parsimoniousness) within a particular culture (the Jewish culture) should be either ignored or reviled because of its negative connotations.

No I'm not. I'm saying that parsimoniousness is *not* a particular trait within Jewish culture. I'm saying that Jews are *not* more parsimonious than Gentiles. I'm further saying that those who claim that they are, are consciously or not, expressing the oldest and most dangerous anti-semitic stereotype in the world. I'm saying, finally, that any Jew who fails to challenge someone who says this ought to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bollocks. This is certainly no more true of Jews than it would have been of their Slavic neighbours, and its less true of Jews than of blacks. And yet Jews are the ones who are labelled as "tight-fisted." You know why? Anti-semitism, that's why. To pretend that anti-semitic prejudices like this have *any* basis in reality is to give them aid and succor. Jews (well everyone, but *especially* Jews) should stand up to anti-semitism in all its forms, even ones as apparently innocuous as this thread. I can't believe that you are willing, not only to fail to challenge Brainaddict's claim that Jews are more tight with money than other people, but actually to suggest that he is right. As I said before, you should be ashamed of yourself, and I suspect that, although you'll never admit it here, you are.

Let's deal with your points one by one:

1) "...no more true of Jews...) I didn't claim that it was, I said it's a trait that my great-grandmother and many of her contemporaries had no choice but to develop. That kind of thing happens when you have to flee across Europe in just the clothes you're wearing.

2) "...and its less true of Jews than of blacks." Is it? What evidence do you have to support your statement?

3) "...Jews are the ones who are labelled as "tight-fisted." ". Along with the Scots, the Welsh, the Swiss and many others.

4) "You know why? Anti-semitism, that's why". In the case of anti-Semites promoting the stereotype, of course it is. In the case of Jews promoting it (which is what Brainaddict's OP is actually about) it is a reclamation and celebration of that stereotype.

5) "To pretend that anti-semitic prejudices like this have *any* basis in reality is to give them aid and succor." Where to start? As previously stated, it is not just an "anti-Semitic prejudice", it is also a celebrated trait in some parts of Jewish (and other) cultures. Denial of that possibility because it may perhaps give a small amount of "aid and succour" to the type of bonehead who is too pigshit thick to be able to deconstruct a sentence let alone the concept of stereotyping doesn't bother me, mouthing pussilanimous "no platform" sentiments does.

6) " I can't believe that you are willing, not only to fail to challenge Brainaddict's claim that Jews are more tight with money than other people, but actually to suggest that he is right." Brainaddict's OP was (in a cackhanded way) about how he'd noticed that "Israelis" had reclaimed the stereotype of Jewish parsimoniousness, not that (in your interpretation) they were "more tight with money".
As for what you believe, you won't be surprised to know that your belief is a matter of supreme indifference to me.

7) "As I said before, you should be ashamed of yourself, and I suspect that, although you'll never admit it here, you are."
Believe what you like, phil, I know you will anyway. I stand on my record of challenging neo-Nazis and Fascists, both with words and fists. Your "judgement of me means nothing, except perhaps to you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It is indeed worth reading, it should be *compulsory* reading. If Brainaddict had read it he wouldn't have come out with the crap he did. Because he would have found Hitler saying (and I paraphrase from memory, but its pretty accurate): "I'd never really noticed the Jews until I began to travel around central Europe. And then the first thing I noticed was that Jews seemed to be particularly tight with their money, that they would often boast about the deals and swindles they had pulled off, they seemed almost to compete with each other in haggling." And if Brainaddict had seen Hitler saying this, he would not have said it himself, because he knows that Hitler is a Bad Man. And then we'd all have been spared a great deal of aggravation.

The point is that if somebody nowadays reads it, they read it with foreknowledge of it's context that people reading it when it was published didn't have. They also (even those reading it because they may support some of its premises) have a much wider set of cultural knowledges against which to measure Hitler's thesis.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No I'm not. I'm saying that parsimoniousness is *not* a particular trait within Jewish culture.

I believe I made clear that "it happens to be a trait in some elements of Jewry". Guess what? That usually means the poor, and the phrase "some elements" surely gives a clue to someone of your undoubtedly massive intelligence that the the point doesn't include ALL Jews.

I'm saying that Jews are *not* more parsimonious than Gentiles.

I Haven't claimed Jews are more parsimonious.

I'm further saying that those who claim that they are, are consciously or not, expressing the oldest and most dangerous anti-semitic stereotype in the world.

Why is such a claim specifically anti-Semitic, phil? Because Hitler wrote about it in "Mein Kampf"? Why is it more poisonous than, for example, the blood libels?
I await (along with your bibliography of the "plenty of reference books" that Hitler wrote) your reply with bated breath.

I'm saying, finally, that any Jew who fails to challenge someone who says this ought to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

In which case do you mind telling me exactly who you are to set out moral principles relating to the behaviour of members of the Jewish community?