FruitandNut
New Member
My old Psychology prof said the gizmo that produces cognition in we humans is essentially irrational in nature - guess he was about right.
Israeli wounded in mattress factory.
- Thread starter moono
- Start date
moono said:
I'm not saying you are wrong.
Israel is in the wrong but given that it is there to stay you need to consider the future.
Israel uses the terror threat to claim it is right in it's actions. If the threat is gone then israel if without that defence.
It would take time but the international community would force action and even the US would have no excuse to ignore the Palestinian's problems.
You can't force a country like Israel to stop with bombs and a few rockets but you can make it bloody hard for them to continue as they are when the bad is all on one side.
Palestine is a feather weight fighting a heavy weight so it needs to box clever.
moono said:
Even we can find some common ground.
Perhaps there is still a small chance yet
moono said:
I'm not but it's in the interests of most people to see peace in the region.
In time we could see the area grow to be a good place to live.
All we need is for the people who kill to step back and think.
It must be the Palestinians first as this is the only way to desroy israel's argument about defence.
I don't think there is any chance of a military solution so another way must be found. If anyone can come up with a better one I'll bow to them but I don't think there is any other way.
Israel may be wrong but that does not negate the idea that the palestinians starting a total truce won't end in Israel loosing the battle.
The only other way is the one that has been going on for years with nothing but death and destruction on both sides.
You are asking the victim on the ground to say 'uncle' so the kicking will cease.
You are asking the Palestinian government to call a halt to events over which it holds little sway. You might as well demand that George Bush ends all gun crime in Chicago. No matter what resources you throw at it ( and in Hamas's case they've been deliberately stripped of those ) somebody is going to commit a gun crime in Chicago.
You are STILL not seeing the Zionists as brutal and manipulative aggressors. If there were no Palestinian attacks, the Zionists would invent them.
Israel needs a change of heart. The Security Council needs new Americans.
You are asking the victim on the ground to say 'uncle' so the kicking will cease.
Yes - that's right
You are asking the Palestinian government to call a halt to events over which it holds little sway. You might as well demand that George Bush ends all gun crime in Chicago. No matter what resources you throw at it ( and in Hamas's case they've been deliberately stripped of those ) somebody is going to commit a gun crime in Chicago.
No - I'm suggesting that the people who leave the bombs and fire the rockets do it
You are STILL not seeing the Zionists as brutal and manipulative aggressors. If there were no Palestinian attacks, the Zionists would invent them.
I can see this but if the attacks on Israel stop there is no argument to continue what Israel is doing now
Israel needs a change of heart. The Security Council needs new Americans.
Both true
I was called in this thread for using terms like muslim and arab to describe the Palestinians. Why do you consider it ok to use Zionists instead of Israel ?
It may well be true that Israel is wrong in much if not all of what it does but it is also true that the palestinians will never win in the way they are trying.
Mutual name calling and leaving a few bombs has no effect but to deepen the hate and lead to more hurt.
Can we agree that this way has failed and that another way should be tried ?
Yes - that's right
You are asking the Palestinian government to call a halt to events over which it holds little sway. You might as well demand that George Bush ends all gun crime in Chicago. No matter what resources you throw at it ( and in Hamas's case they've been deliberately stripped of those ) somebody is going to commit a gun crime in Chicago.
No - I'm suggesting that the people who leave the bombs and fire the rockets do it
You are STILL not seeing the Zionists as brutal and manipulative aggressors. If there were no Palestinian attacks, the Zionists would invent them.
I can see this but if the attacks on Israel stop there is no argument to continue what Israel is doing now
Israel needs a change of heart. The Security Council needs new Americans.
Both true
I was called in this thread for using terms like muslim and arab to describe the Palestinians. Why do you consider it ok to use Zionists instead of Israel ?
It may well be true that Israel is wrong in much if not all of what it does but it is also true that the palestinians will never win in the way they are trying.
Mutual name calling and leaving a few bombs has no effect but to deepen the hate and lead to more hurt.
Can we agree that this way has failed and that another way should be tried ?
Zionists aren't 'Israel', Republicans aren't 'America' and 'Newd Labour' isn't Britain. People that attack 'countries' instead of specific ideologies are terrorists, Bush as a case in point. I could probably, in time, list you the names of fifty thousand Iraqis who never heard of Resolution 1441 but they're all dead anyway. That's terrifying. So it must be terrorism. Right ?
Are Republicans terrorists ? The components of the administration are, no doubt about it. Was Sharon a terrorist ? Of course he was. He was an indicted war criminal. Are Israelis terrorists ? No, they're not, but Zionists are and Zionists are making policy BACKED by a terrorist administration in the US. You are looking for a way to fight terror other than with terror. That way is most certainly NOT surrender.
More...
Moono: Surely you are not trying to suggest that UN Res. # 181 occurred in a vacuum? The violence did not begin then, it did not begin in 36, it began in 1921 under an ORGANISED Arab onslught of Jewish pilgrims. It continued unabated for a full 15 years. Care to enlighten us on that?
As for supposed ethnic cleansing by pre-statehood Israel, CORRECT! Zionists DID do that...to all of 7 villages. They loaded them onto buses and ropped them at the borders. Care to discuss how many Jews were booted from Arab lands in the same oeriod and how they were booted?
Trotting out Deir Yassin? Care to examine the residents of umpteenth Jewish villages and farms that were slaugtered duringthe same period? You are so fond of disparities in body counts, surely you would love to see how Jewish victims in similar circumstances fared? I am sure we will see a bob and weave on this matter...
Fact is, as General Sherman himself said,"War is hell." Jews did commit henous acts, they are human. Howevr, Arabs committed far worse and far much longer and yet those heinous acts never seem to some across your mind. Then you among others have the audacity to question why crticism of Zionism and Israel is ever construed as so called "Anti Semitism?"
Equating Americans with Storm Troopers is pitiful and sepicable on your part and shows a distinct ignorance on the part of history and current affairs.
BigFootedFred: "Israel is the invader..." Really? Of what? Its own land? Arabs arenative to Arabia, Jews are native to Judea. Guess where historical Judea is? The so called "West Bank" and Gaza! Invaders indeed. Yet these true inheritors of the land bowed to the reality of the day and agreed to share the lanbd in a roughly 60:40 split [according to the orginal 1919 Partition] with the Arabs getting the larger number!!! Who has the right to be angry here? Arabs who already have 33 odd nations or the Jews with one, tiny, beleaugered spit of land?
Moono: Surely you are not trying to suggest that UN Res. # 181 occurred in a vacuum? The violence did not begin then, it did not begin in 36, it began in 1921 under an ORGANISED Arab onslught of Jewish pilgrims. It continued unabated for a full 15 years. Care to enlighten us on that?
As for supposed ethnic cleansing by pre-statehood Israel, CORRECT! Zionists DID do that...to all of 7 villages. They loaded them onto buses and ropped them at the borders. Care to discuss how many Jews were booted from Arab lands in the same oeriod and how they were booted?
Trotting out Deir Yassin? Care to examine the residents of umpteenth Jewish villages and farms that were slaugtered duringthe same period? You are so fond of disparities in body counts, surely you would love to see how Jewish victims in similar circumstances fared? I am sure we will see a bob and weave on this matter...
Fact is, as General Sherman himself said,"War is hell." Jews did commit henous acts, they are human. Howevr, Arabs committed far worse and far much longer and yet those heinous acts never seem to some across your mind. Then you among others have the audacity to question why crticism of Zionism and Israel is ever construed as so called "Anti Semitism?"
Equating Americans with Storm Troopers is pitiful and sepicable on your part and shows a distinct ignorance on the part of history and current affairs.
BigFootedFred: "Israel is the invader..." Really? Of what? Its own land? Arabs arenative to Arabia, Jews are native to Judea. Guess where historical Judea is? The so called "West Bank" and Gaza! Invaders indeed. Yet these true inheritors of the land bowed to the reality of the day and agreed to share the lanbd in a roughly 60:40 split [according to the orginal 1919 Partition] with the Arabs getting the larger number!!! Who has the right to be angry here? Arabs who already have 33 odd nations or the Jews with one, tiny, beleaugered spit of land?
Moono...
Moono: Zionism isn't srael? Utter nonsense. Israel IS ZIONISM, or the reliasation there of.
Moono: Zionism isn't srael? Utter nonsense. Israel IS ZIONISM, or the reliasation there of.
No rachamim, Israel isn't Zionism.
Here is a true tale of brave kibbutznics, the sort of Jewish guys that I know and like. They are on the spot, they know just what to expect from the extremist Zionist gangs and malformed philosophies that I'm always complaining about. These are the true Israelis who suffer by the abhorrent actions of the terrorist Israeli government which America supports. Decent Americans might think that their taxes go towards assisting people like Yoel Marshak but the bulk of their money goes towards supporting those Zionists whom Marshak despises. It's a matter of decency, you see. What is happening to the Palestinians is indecent.
Nasty lookin lot, ain't they. You wouldn't want your daughter getting kicked by one of these.
"The citizens of Israel must rise up against the violence of the extreme right."
Exactly so. Zionism is the extreme right. Israel isn't Zionism.
Here is a true tale of brave kibbutznics, the sort of Jewish guys that I know and like. They are on the spot, they know just what to expect from the extremist Zionist gangs and malformed philosophies that I'm always complaining about. These are the true Israelis who suffer by the abhorrent actions of the terrorist Israeli government which America supports. Decent Americans might think that their taxes go towards assisting people like Yoel Marshak but the bulk of their money goes towards supporting those Zionists whom Marshak despises. It's a matter of decency, you see. What is happening to the Palestinians is indecent.
Nasty lookin lot, ain't they. You wouldn't want your daughter getting kicked by one of these.
"The citizens of Israel must rise up against the violence of the extreme right."
Exactly so. Zionism is the extreme right. Israel isn't Zionism.
So telling...
Moono: It seems that you lack even a basuic understanding of both Zionism and the modern State of Israel. Zionism, at its bare bones, simply represents the right and responsibility of the Jewish People to determine their own futures within the borders of their ancestral and tradtional homeland. The kibbutznik you quote is a committed Zionist, as is the Kibbutz movement. You seem to comfuse KACH adherents with the rank and file.
Moono: It seems that you lack even a basuic understanding of both Zionism and the modern State of Israel. Zionism, at its bare bones, simply represents the right and responsibility of the Jewish People to determine their own futures within the borders of their ancestral and tradtional homeland. The kibbutznik you quote is a committed Zionist, as is the Kibbutz movement. You seem to comfuse KACH adherents with the rank and file.
Moono
Who are you to cast blanket judgements upon anyone? Furthermore, who are you to assign generic terms to any group or class? You might try a dose of humility Moono. Zionism is like any other ideology, moderates to extremists.
Who are you to cast blanket judgements upon anyone? Furthermore, who are you to assign generic terms to any group or class? You might try a dose of humility Moono. Zionism is like any other ideology, moderates to extremists.
Do keep up, rachamim. I've recently said why I choose to use the language that I use. I've also acknowledged the range of personalities covered by the term and urged the moderates to get a grip on their bloodthirsty and extremist majority. Zionism was itself banned as a terrorist organisation not so long ago and imo its time to ban it again.
I state again, Zionism is first and foremost a political movement. It is in no way an exclusively Jewish club. Anybody that attempts to link condemnation of a fascist movement with any form of anti-Jewishness is talking Rectumese.
I trust that has headed you off at the pass.
I state again, Zionism is first and foremost a political movement. It is in no way an exclusively Jewish club. Anybody that attempts to link condemnation of a fascist movement with any form of anti-Jewishness is talking Rectumese.
I trust that has headed you off at the pass.
rachamim18 said:
We can only go back as far as living memory as if we go back far into history we could say the US belong to the Indians and England belongs to Rome.
It was the influx of Jews after WW2 that started the modern problems.
Both sides have a historic claim to the land and both are willing to try to wipe each other out for it.
Pity as in time they will all be dead anyway and the land will still be there.
Daft, isn't it ?
Fantasies
Moono: "Zionism was banned as a terrorist organisation?" When, by whom? Since when has anyone ever been able to ban an entire ideology?
BigFooted: Let me explain it you in an easier to digest waty: Among all existing people, ONLY the Jews can claim the oldest hold on the land alternatively known as "Palestine" and Israel. In all the 4000 years since Jews first established their nation there, there has ALWAYS been an existing Jewish community. Jews have never relinquished their national claim on the land.
In fact, if enough Native Americans can band together into a cohesive unit and lay claim to the land, I feel that they should be given their fair share...even above and beyond so called "Reservation" and all the fringe benefits they entail.
As for the "influx of Jews after WWII that started the problems..." I guess that explains the wholesale slaughter of Jews there that began in 1920 and continued unabated [and without organised response] until 1936.
In fact, the problem began when the Jewish population grew to the point where the two groups began to coexist in close proximity, that date was approximately 1905. Arabs were basically confined to the coast and the Nablus Plain and Jews, due to the unwillingness of landholders to sell prime land, were building their homes in malarial swampland and inhospitable desert. When these areas became overcrowded, Jews began settling in other areas and this is where the frcition came in.
Moono: "Zionism was banned as a terrorist organisation?" When, by whom? Since when has anyone ever been able to ban an entire ideology?
BigFooted: Let me explain it you in an easier to digest waty: Among all existing people, ONLY the Jews can claim the oldest hold on the land alternatively known as "Palestine" and Israel. In all the 4000 years since Jews first established their nation there, there has ALWAYS been an existing Jewish community. Jews have never relinquished their national claim on the land.
In fact, if enough Native Americans can band together into a cohesive unit and lay claim to the land, I feel that they should be given their fair share...even above and beyond so called "Reservation" and all the fringe benefits they entail.
As for the "influx of Jews after WWII that started the problems..." I guess that explains the wholesale slaughter of Jews there that began in 1920 and continued unabated [and without organised response] until 1936.
In fact, the problem began when the Jewish population grew to the point where the two groups began to coexist in close proximity, that date was approximately 1905. Arabs were basically confined to the coast and the Nablus Plain and Jews, due to the unwillingness of landholders to sell prime land, were building their homes in malarial swampland and inhospitable desert. When these areas became overcrowded, Jews began settling in other areas and this is where the frcition came in.
rachamim18 said:
Both side say they have a historic claim to the land.
So what ?
4000 years was a long time ago and it's fucking pointless to bring it up.
The long and the short is that the jews hate the muslims and the muslims hate the jews.
Perhaps it's better that Iran gets the bomb and nukes israel.
Israel uses it's bombs to wipe out the Palestinians and the whole fucking area is radioactive so no bastard can live there.
Wonder if that would solve the problem ?
moono said:
See what I mean.
Both lots are acting like twats.
Lets speed things up and give the motherfucking Palestinian/muslim/arabs the bomb so they can nuke the bastard Zionists. The jews can pop their nukes off and that would be that.
Turn the fucking place to radioactive glass and kill the fucking lot.
Would that make you happy moono ?
moono said:
I don't need to associate you with violence.
There are a bunch of threads on here that all have the same theme of supporting murdering jews.
You are a small part of the reason that there will never be peace in the middle east.
It's racist murder apologists like you and others on both sides that will keep the stupidity going on for years and will see the deaths of thousands.
Silly ideas of historic land claims and playground "you hit me first" politics will have no positive result for anyone.
What a bunch of cunts
moono said:
You have refused on several occasions to agree that murder of israelis in the name of bent political or religious causes is a fundimental wrong.
You are a racist bigot as bad or worse than any BNP nazi.
moono said:
So prove me wrong and agree that murder of israelis is wrong.
I have asked several times and you always refuse.
You only need to read your own threads to see this is true so again I call you a racist.
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