nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet said:
Nice bit of bigotry there. When you say "Jews", you mean "Israeli". The two are not necessarily linked. There are plenty of Jews who aren't Israeli and have no desire to become Israeli.
Israeli Human Rights Violations in the Occupied Palestinian Territory 19 - 25 April 2
- Thread starter moono
- Start date
Nice bit of bigotry there. When you say "Jews", you mean "Israeli". The two are not necessarily linked. There are plenty of Jews who aren't Israeli and have no desire to become Israeli.
nino_savatte said:
Yeah, if you want to get pedantic.
But the point I'm amking is that jewish refugees came to the mandate of palestine and developed scrubland, swamp and desert with little resource at all and often with only the most basic of tools. More than the "palestinians" ever did with "their" land.
They only got precious about the land once the Israelis had made it worth something.
Not surprised the Israelis defend themselves with such vigor given the work they put into it.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet said:
No one's being "pedantic". Your knowledge of history has more holes in it than a colander. In fact, it's not even history that you've presented, it's a narrative that has been informed by bigotry and cultural relativism.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet said:
Try reading some history, instead of basing your posts on what are bigoted representations.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Peet said:
The first two, fair enough.
Bernard Lewis?
Not anything he's produced in the last 20 years, since he became more interested in perpetuating his beliefs about "the east" than in doing original research.
Even so, your claim that "...jewish refugees came to the mandate of palestine and developed scrubland, swamp and desert..." isn't entirely accurate, given that Palestine (by which I mean all the peoples, cultures and religions), as with most parts of the Ottoman empire over the centuries, already had an agricultural set-up that included complex irrigation, use of micro-climates and other "ecologically-friendly" agri-practices, whereas what Mandate and post-Mandate immigrants did was to mostly abuse natural resources by attempting to use European methods of intensive cultivation. What they produced and produce are unsustainable crops, finite development that has polluted the land and is drying up the aquifers.
Just thought I'd set your contention in context.
ViolentPanda said:
He is a bit shrill.
Even so, your claim that "...jewish refugees came to the mandate of palestine and developed scrubland, swamp and desert..." isn't entirely accurate, given that Palestine (by which I mean all the peoples, cultures and religions), as with most parts of the Ottoman empire over the centuries, already had an agricultural set-up that included complex irrigation, use of micro-climates and other "ecologically-friendly" agri-practices, whereas what Mandate and post-Mandate immigrants did was to mostly abuse natural resources by attempting to use European methods of intensive cultivation. What they produced and produce are unsustainable crops, finite development that has polluted the land and is drying up the aquifers.
Just thought I'd set your contention in context.
Still, it was enough to build a liberal and democratic and civil society. Not entirely sure how you arrive at the conclusion it's unsustainable agriculture though.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Liberal? I'll give you that, insofar as it is modelled toward a western vision.Peet said:
Democratic? Not yet, not until the whole "Jewish state" ethos is set aside.
Civil? I'm having a hard time with that one. Israelis (including the few I'm related to) are the Yorkshiremen of the middle east in my experience, and I don't mean that offensively, just as an observation of fact.
Petroleum-derived fertiliser use on marginal land, allied with the over-use of finite (fossil) water resources as well as over-burdening freshwater resources. The soil loses usability without constant and increasing synthetic inputs (which speed up soil and groundwater contamination), and in the meantime extraction from aquifers has exceeded replenishment since the 1980s.
So, unless there's a magic wand to remediate the marginal farmland, halt desertification and replenish (and indeed expand) water resources, it is indeed "unsustainable agriculture".
I've got a reference somewhere to a reasonable paper on the water and agriculture problems. I'll see if I can find it.
ViolentPanda said:Liberal? I'll give you that, insofar as it is modelled toward a western vision.
Democratic? Not yet, not until the whole "Jewish state" ethos is set aside.
Civil? I'm having a hard time with that one. Israelis (including the few I'm related to) are the Yorkshiremen of the middle east in my experience, and I don't mean that offensively, just as an observation of fact.
I'm a Yorkie you git.
It is democratic. it has arabs in the knesset. Liberal as in women are not beaten for not wearing headscarfs etc.
They're as liberal as they can for a beseiged nation and it's relative comapred with say Iran or Syria or Egypt. Compared with the arab states it's a free speech utopia.
Whether something is sustainable is a never ending and insoluble argument. Israel (unlike the rest of that area) has been thriving for decades. That means sustainable for the time being.
In the end it doesn't matter whether it is sustainable. Agriculture must always modernise and adapt. It's as true for Israel as any other country. It has the resources and the will to do what it takes.
I'd like to see that paper. Call me sad but I'll enjoy reading it.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet said:I'm a Yorkie you git.
It is democratic. it has arabs in the knesset. Liberal as in women are not beaten for not wearing headscarfs etc.
They're as liberal as they can for a beseiged nation and it's relative comapred with say Iran or Syria or Egypt. Compared with the arab states it's a free speech utopia.
Whether something is sustainable is a never ending and insoluble argument. Israel (unlike the rest of that area) has been thriving for decades. That means sustainable for the time being.
In the end it doesn't matter whether it is sustainable. Agriculture must always modernise and adapt. It's as true for Israel as any other country. It has the resources and the will to do what it takes.
I'd like to see that paper. Call me sad but I'll enjoy reading it.
There is nothing democratic or liberal about denying people access to clean water. There is nothing democratic or liberal about forcibly removing people from their homes with bulldozers. There is nothing democratic or liberal about building walls around people's homes. there is nothing democratic or liberal about forcing people to queue for hours in baking heat to pass checkpoints. There is nothing democratic or liberal about pass laws.
Israel is a 'liberal democracy' in name only.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet said:
That's right, you roll those eyes. You have no answer to the points that I've raised.
Btw, I'll bet you never saw that programme on C4 last night.
disownedspirit
New Member
Peet said:
so which of the post you
at do think is false ?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet said:
Nope, the Rod "I'm a fervent supporter of Israel" Liddle thing.
It seems as though he had his eyes opened. I don't suppose there's any chance of that happening to you.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet said:
http://www.channel4.com/culture/mic..._it/debates/holyland.html?intcmp=docpage_box3
The programme was called Love Thy Neighbour...and it showed some very disturbing pictures of Israeli kids stoning passing Palestinians...and you think it's all one-sided.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I suppose somene has to be. Tough luck!Peet said:I'm a Yorkie you git.
Having Arabs (Arabs who are Israeli citizens mostly because their ancestors managed to avoid being run off their land) in the Knesset isn't, unfortunately for your thesis, a key proof of democracy.
As for the "headscarf" issue;
1) Are you aware of Orthodox strictures on women, and the religiously-sanctioned "punishments"?
2) Are you really dense enough to suppose that mentioning the practice of a minority of the male population in Palestine (and an unquantified practice at that) "proves" Israel's democratic status, imbues Israel with democratic credential? I certainly hope not.
Thanks for shooting your own argument in the foot, saves me doing it for you.
Piffle, balderdash and big hairy goat bollocks.
Something is sustainable or it isn't, if you have a finite resource or, in this case, two (the ability of the soil to sustain the ever-increasing chemical load, and the over-use of aquifers, causing depletion), then your ability to produce from those finite resources is also finite.
"Sustainable for the time being" is also a nonsense, it's a semantic sop to your refusal to acknowledge the finite nature of the resources.
Those sentiments and a five pound note will get you a coffee and a cheese roll.
Unfortunately for Israel, as for many countries who are net exporters of agricultural goods, sometimes there's nowhere to go in the race to "modernise and adapt", except back to the agricultural practices that existed in the region before the state of Israel did.
That's the difference between some forms of subsistence agriculture and agriculture as capitalist endeavour, sustainability.
You're sad.
I enjoyed reading it too. All I have to do know is remember which storage file it's in.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet said:
Really? The western media (whether you like it or not) is almost always pro-Israeli. Any slight deviation from the script or any suggestion that the conflict be covered more evenly, is always met with a barrage of flak from the pro-Zionist camp.
it seems to me that Israel and its associates and supporters, don't really want free speech or freedom of the press. As far as bias goes, Israel is perfectly happy to be the beneficiary of pro-Zionist bias, but it cannot wrap its collective head around the concepts of journalistic integrity and objectivity.
Peet said:
Inconvenient truths about Israel
Here are some photos too
http://www.halturnershow.com/IsraeliAtrocities.html
And you ask 'what injustice?'
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Peet's a bit of a coward. 
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