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Israeli child-murderers on a roll.

Serguei said:
Yes, Israel could destroy Arabs by bombing their towns. But it does not. I am not sure Hamas would not if it could (especialy as destruction of Israel is main part of their program).

You're entitled to express your opinion, but if you want to convince anyone of it's validity you'll have to do more than make veiled assertions.

Oh, and "main part of their programme"? That'd be before the support and defence of the Palestinian people would it? Nope, if I recall correctly here are 7 articles mentioning Islamic mutual aid and defence (amongst other stuff) before Israel gets a mention.

Report fact, don't peddle rumour please.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Nope, if I recall correctly here are 7 articles mentioning Islamic mutual aid and defence (amongst other stuff) before Israel gets a mention.

But it gets mantioned, does it? And what exactly are the plans of Hamas as related to Israel?
 
nino_savatte said:


For mentioning it.

The other thing to factor in to the israeli situation is that there's an awful lot of guilt about the horrific thing that have happeend to the JEwish people over the years and particulalry 1932 germany etc.
 
Markyd said:
For mentioning it.

The other thing to factor in to the israeli situation is that there's an awful lot of guilt about the horrific thing that have happeend to the JEwish people over the years and particulalry 1932 germany etc.

I take it you approve of the US bankrolling of Israel, then.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Nope, if I recall correctly here are 7 articles mentioning Islamic mutual aid and defence (amongst other stuff) before Israel gets a mention.

But the way - you are wrong. In Hamas charter Israel is mentioned at the beginning:
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

<I>Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors</I>

and then in Article 6:
<I>The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah, derives from Islam its way of life and strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.</I> (for those who do not know Palestine here is the whole of Palestine including territory of Israel, not just "occupied territories")
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Never been.
You should.
Everyone should see the place (from both sides of the divide) at least once.
So, the Israelis may have the means to decimate the Palestininans, but due to realpolitik, it will never be a viable option.
You know the old saw, Johnny. Don't make assumptions...

Palestinians are dying at the hands of the Israeli state at a disturbing rate for a country which makes claim to democracy (many of the victims being unarmed bystanders), but let's look beyond the immediate impact of a single death, or even a cluster of single deaths, let's look at what that means in terms of the psychology of your average "working class" Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank. He or she is under siege, and unlike the average working class Israeli, doesn't have a well-armed and well-trained police force and army to protect them, they live in an area under constant threat of armed incursion, of attack and of demolition at the whim of the Israeli state.

That's what the state of Israel has given itself, a subjugated Palestinian population whose subjugation fuels the rage that gives the state of Israel further excuses to subjugate it. The state of Israel is quite obviously at ease with this state of affairs. It has provided them with a cheap labour pool for much of the length of the state's existence.
Which means that their possession of these weapons isn't really a factor in the equation.
It doesn't mean anything of the sort.
 
nino_savatte said:
I take it you approve of the US bankrolling of Israel, then.

How'd you get to that (BIG leap)? :mad:

Don't give a toss where the US send there money it's the consequnces of them doing so piss me off

what I do object to is the silence around the world on the atrocities commited on the west bank etc.
 
Serguei said:
But the way - you are wrong. In Hamas charter Israel is mentioned at the beginning:
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

<I>Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors</I>
Read it again. That's an interpretation of the Sura that is quoted, not a piece of policy.
and then in Article 6:
<I>The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah, derives from Islam its way of life and strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.</I> (for those who do not know Palestine here is the whole of Palestine including territory of Israel, not just "occupied territories")
So actually, working from memory as I was, I was one article out, there are 6 rather than 7 articles before Israel is mentioned.

You'll have to do better than that.
 
ViolentPanda said:
You should.
Everyone should see the place (from both sides of the divide) at least once.

You know the old saw, Johnny. Don't make assumptions...

I wasn't making an assumption. I was just restating what you said: namely that they can't do it because it wouldn't sell in Washington.

It was your assumption.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Read it again. That's an interpretation of the Sura that is quoted, not a piece of policy.

So actually, working from memory as I was, I was one article out, there are 6 rather than 7 articles before Israel is mentioned.

You'll have to do better than that.

Don't talk noncence:
Article 3: They have raised the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors in order to extricate the country and the people from the [oppressors’] desecration, filth and evil.
It is obvious from the context that by "extricate the country and the people from the [oppressors’] desecration, filth and evil" they mean freeing the whole of Palestine from Jews (including the territory of Israel itself).

The whole of the charter from start to finish is really about one thing only - fight agains Israel until no Israel exists. Read carefully, "Jihad fighters" are mentioned everywhere. The whole charter is about the fight not about "support" as we in Europe understand it.

Check article 13: [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Hamas don't give a shit about peaceful initiatives etc.
 
Serguei said:
Don't talk noncence:
Article 3: They have raised the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors in order to extricate the country and the people from the [oppressors’] desecration, filth and evil.
It is obvious from the context that by "extricate the country and the people from the [oppressors’] desecration, filth and evil" they mean freeing the whole of Palestine from Jews (including the territory of Israel itself).

The whole of the charter from start to finish is really about one thing only - fight agains Israel until no Israel exists. Read carefully, "Jihad fighters" are mentioned everywhere. The whole charter is about the fight not about "support" as we in Europe understand it.

Check article 13: [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Hamas don't give a shit about peaceful initiatives etc.


The charter was written when?

That was then, this is now.

Unless you're ignorant enough to believe that every member of Hamas signs a bloody membership form and swears a bloodcurdling oath to obey every last word of the charter, so help them Allah?

Twat.
 
big footed fred said:
Until some fucker bangs their heads against a fucking wall and wakes them both up.

Boths sides are as bad as each other.

Yes, both sides are to blame, its gaining currency around here. Some true belivers around here only see Israel as the problem however.
 
Serguei said:
Don't talk noncence:
Article 3: They have raised the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors in order to extricate the country and the people from the [oppressors’] desecration, filth and evil.
It is obvious from the context that by "extricate the country and the people from the [oppressors’] desecration, filth and evil" they mean freeing the whole of Palestine from Jews (including the territory of Israel itself).

The whole of the charter from start to finish is really about one thing only - fight agains Israel until no Israel exists. Read carefully, "Jihad fighters" are mentioned everywhere. The whole charter is about the fight not about "support" as we in Europe understand it.

Check article 13: [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Hamas don't give a shit about peaceful initiatives etc.

Its so true. But now Hamas can't just bitch from the sidelines. They will be forced to make decisions and be accountable to the people who put them in office. They will need money to pick up the trash and pay government salaries. They will have to deal with the US and EU, anf they will have to moderate their stances.

Welcome to the real world Hamas.
 
moono said:
It is VERY clear what SHOULD happen...
So you think it legitimate that Hamas demands recognition by Israel of "Palestine" and yet denies their recognition to Israel? Are you familiar with the concept of "dhimmitude"? Is it reasonable to expect the Israelis to stake their long-term security on the goodwill and cooperation of those who explicitly refuse to see them as equals?
 
ViolentPanda said:

Yes, once it is proven that you was wrong the only thing that is left to you is to call your opponent names :)

You hate Israel so much you cannot even accept that anybody else might be not exactly an angel.
 
mears said:
Its so true. But now Hamas can't just bitch from the sidelines. They will be forced to make decisions and be accountable to the people who put them in office. They will need money to pick up the trash and pay government salaries. They will have to deal with the US and EU, anf they will have to moderate their stances.

I hope so.
It is much easier to fight and blame others then to try to build something instead.
 
The only diffrence between the two sides is israel has better weapons
imho . Too many people not enough land .Surely if the cold war can end peacefully .This dispute can be solved.
 
Markyd said:
How'd you get to that (BIG leap)? :mad:

Don't give a toss where the US send there money it's the consequnces of them doing so piss me off

what I do object to is the silence around the world on the atrocities commited on the west bank etc.

You're not making yourself very clear, I'm afraid.
 
dylanredefined said:
The only diffrence between the two sides is israel has better weapons
imho . Too many people not enough land .Surely if the cold war can end peacefully .This dispute can be solved.

And, further, if Sinn Fein can be incorporated into the political process then perhaps it's possible to extend that potential to Hamas?

It might eventually mean the break up of Hamas into factions along the lines of the Real IRA etc but it's got to be worth a go yes?
 
rogue yam said:
Well, recent history, anyway.
Really?

Its not just recent history
Please read the following.

In the spring of 1492, shortly after the Moors were driven out of Granada, Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain expelled all the Jews from their lands and thus, by a stroke of the pen, put an end to the largest and most distinguished Jewish settlement in Europe. The expulsion of this intelligent, cultured, and industrious class was prompted only in part by the greed of the king and the intensified nationalism of the people who had just brought the crusade against the Muslim Moors to a glorious close. The real motive was the religious zeal of the Church, the Queen, and the masses. The official reason given for driving out the Jews was that they encouraged the Marranos to persist in their Jewishness and thus would not allow them to become good Christians.
The following account gives a detailed and accurate picture of the expulsion and its immediate consequences for Spanish Jewry. It was written in Hebrew by an Italian Jew in April or May, 1495.

Source: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1492-jews-spain1.html
Then there is war. An essential historical context of Thomas's Life of William and anti-Jewish feeling in England was the crusades. The same passions that inflamed Thomas and led him to express such unbridled hatred of Jews were also inflaming the population at large. If you look at the dates you can see that the time during which Jews were resident in England (1066-1290) corresponds very closely to the dates of the crusades (1096-1291). As Joseph Jacobs puts it, Thomas's Life was published "just ... when men's religious passions were aroused to fanatical fury ... Jews fell all along the track of the crusaders" (Jacobs 1897, 197; see also Roth 1964, 18). To modern minds it is not apparent why crusades against Muslims should have led to hatred of Jews, but the connection was there for the crusaders: alongside Muslims, Jews were part of the medieval "axis of evil" (see Jacobs 1893, xi). In England, particularly during the reign of the popular crusader-king, Richard 1 (Richard the Lion-Heart, r. 1189-99), the mustering of crusaders in English towns and ports was the occasion for the expression of a great deal of anti-Jewish feeling. There was, for example, an anti-Jewish riot at present-day King's Lynn in which many Jews were killed and that, in turn, led to violence in nearby Norwich (see Lipman 1967, 57-8). Chroniclers report that: "Many of those who were hastening to go to Jerusalem determined first to rise against the Jews before invading the Saracens. Accordingly on the sixth of February [1190], all the Jews who were found in their own houses at Norwich were butchered" (Lipman 1967, 58; quoting Ralph de Dicetos's Imagines Historiarum 1652). Richard's coronation (from which, incidentally, Jews had been excluded) led directly to an attack on the London Jewry (see Jacobs [1893, 99-105] for an extract from the chronicle of William of Newburgh). Houses were burnt and thirty people lost their lives. Between 1189 and 1216 there were attacks on Jews throughout the eastern counties of England--at Stamford, Lincoln, Colchester, Thetford, Ospringe, Dunstable, and Bury St Edmunds. At Stamford all the Jews who did not get to the castle in time were killed and Jewish houses were pillaged. At Dunstable the small Jewish community only saved themselves by submitting to Christian baptism. At Bury St Edmunds fifty-seven Jews were murdered and the rest were expelled from the town by the Abbot. The worst outbreak of anti-Jewish hostility came at York, where one hundred and fifty Jews lost their lives (see Roth 1964, 19-25). These attacks were not the result of accusations of Jewish ritual murder. They were symptoms of a growing hostility brought to boiling point by crusader enthusiasm--and increasingly allowed to happen as Jews lost royal support.
Source: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_3_116/ai_n15954445/pg_2

And you thought gas chambers were German Think again…please read

The site of Clifford's Tower, the keep of York's medieval castle, still bears witness to the most horrifying event in the history of English Jewry. On the night of 16 March 1190, the feast of Shabbat ha-Gadol, the small Jewish community of York was gathered together for protection inside the tower. Rather than perish at the hands of the violent mob that awaited them outside, many of the Jews took their own lives; others died in the flames they had lit, and those who finally surrendered were massacred and murdered.

Understandably, this appalling event has become the most notorious example of antisemitism in medieval England. Yet, it was by no means an isolated incident, but rather the culmination of a tide of violent feeling which swept the country in the early part of 1190

Source: http://ddickerson.igc.org/cliffords-tower.html

There's more do you want me to post them up?
 
Jelly said:
And, further, if Sinn Fein can be incorporated into the political process then perhaps it's possible to extend that potential to Hamas?

It might eventually mean the break up of Hamas into factions along the lines of the Real IRA etc but it's got to be worth a go yes?
This is obviously the route that should be taken. If the same demands were expected of Sinn Fein as is being called for by ALL parties in regards to Hamas then we'd still be dodging IRA bombs in London.

It's a gradual process, let's just hope they see it as such
 
Serguei said:
Yes, once it is proven that you was wrong the only thing that is left to you is to call your opponent names :)
Uh, sorry old chap, but YOU were the one who mistook an interpretation of a 1300 yr-old Sura for a Hamas policy statement.
I ca;lled you a twat because you are one.
You hate Israel so much you cannot even accept that anybody else might be not exactly an angel.
I don't hate Israel, it's a beautiful country, and many of the people there are doubtless wonderful persons.
What I hate is the actions of a state which claims to be acting for all Jews while carryiing out Zionist policy.

Thing is, most of us aren't Zionists.

So run along with your snide insinuations, you ugly-minded troll.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Because human nature means that some people can't get beyond their own desires and do what's best for everyone rather than just themselves.

The joke is that it's a minority on each side, but it's the minority that have access to power.


Same all over. It's the people that have the power that are least suitable to have it.
Problem is that those who wish to take over are just as bad. That works for any country you happen to name - including here.

In the past I have found that most people can get along with little problem. For a war just add 2 politicians.
 
nino_savatte said:
You're not making yourself very clear, I'm afraid.

Sorry it's a fault of mine. What I meant was I couldn't understand you q re me approving of the US supporting Israel .

AFAIC I worry about the consequences more than the politics of a situation. All I meant.

I was a bit peeved by what I saw as a huge leap in your conclusion.

I'll live :)
 
dylanredefined said:
The only diffrence between the two sides is israel has better weapons
imho . Too many people not enough land .Surely if the cold war can end peacefully .This dispute can be solved.

But there is enough land, if you include some of the surrounding Muslim countries.

The best way for them to help their Muslim brothers would be to allow them to settle within their borders. There is room.

Then, there would be peace. No need for an endless conflict. Every single country surrounding Israel, to a greater or lesser degree, hates Israel. They have all started wars against Israel over the years.

Why don't they do something positive, and allow these refugees to settle in their countries and make something of their lives, instead of living forever in camps waiting for a "return" to their original land, which is just not going to happen in the foreseeable future.

Giles..
 
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