Israel worse than apartheid South Africa, say ANC veterans

[nino_savatte]

Oh I see.

So the point is clearly worthy of debate when you initially introduce the King David bombing to the thread. When your erroneous argument is flagged up you attempt to bolster it by saying And when that argument gets demolished you accuse me of "nitpicking" and the entire point (introduced by you) suddenly becomes irrelevant anyway!!!

If you had Rachamim over this barrel you'd labour the point for a month and chase him around the net shouting "liar, Liar".

I, on the other hand, am once again prepared to allow the posts to speak for themselves and let observers see what a dishonest snake you are.

Nah, you've come along to chuck a few snide comments my way. You also seem to have made a friend in R18.

Your 'counter-argument' is flawed.

Time to put you back on ignore.

 

[nino_savatte]

Ok, I've reread the post you quoted and disagree with Rachamim's descriptions of the delegation. I will also research his claim that some Arabs still hold black slaves. I also think Rachamim dismisses the "vet's" rather unfairly.

I agree with his views on the use of checkpoints.

With regard to the last paragraph that you highlight, "whites and blacks meeting in SA", I assume he means that there was a modicum of social crossover there, that doesn't occur in the west bank. Whites and blacks frequently met in aparthied South Africa. They didn't live together and whites institutionally oppressed blacks but individuals certainly met in many walks of life. I assume this isn't the case in the WB.

It is a slightly confusing passage, but I'm not sure what you think you've gained by highlighting it.

Now what about your implication that Stern or Irgun have targetted civilians? I assume you concede regarding the King David bombing. Got anything else?

How about you? Do you support Rach's contention that the ANC are "bloodsucking scum"? So what if blacks and whites "met" in apartheid era SA? Blacks and whites lived separately and it was only whites who could vote. That's hardly a ringing endorsement...and it's also a strawman argument.

 

[Spymaster]

How about you? Do you support Rach's contention that the ANC are "bloodsucking scum"?

I've reread the post you quoted and disagree with Rachamim's descriptions of the delegation.

Do you practice at being this fucking stupid?

 

[nino_savatte]

Do you practice at being this fucking stupid?

Stupidity is your forte, chump. Could blacks vote in spite of the fact that they sometimes "met" whites (often at the end of a baton round)? You're not doing too well, SM: your logic is flawed and your inability to identify and understand your flaws will only end up making you look like a fool.

 

[Spymaster]

Could blacks vote in spite of the fact that they sometimes "met" whites (often at the end of a baton round)?

No. what's your point?

.....your inability to identify and understand your flaws will only end up making you look like a fool

I'll repeat, do you practice at being this fucking stupid?

Btw> Have you got any further with backing up your implication that Irgun and Stern targetted civilians? I'm sure you wouldn't want to forget about that.

 

[Spymaster]

I will also research his claim that some Arabs still hold black slaves.

Well I did and Rachamim's right.

They do.

http://www.meforum.org/article/189

 

[tangentlama]

Pipes' Organ

Well I did and Rachamim's right.

They do.

http://www.meforum.org/article/189

Israel is not helped by quoting from extremists such as Daniel Pipes.
He and his cohorts target left-wing Jews. Daniel Pipes supports a right-wing and extremist form of Zionism and is part of a network of propagandists/writers who support the Likud bloc policy in the USA and who attack anyone who doesn't support their political aims, even centrist/liberal or leftist Jews.

Meforum.org - Middle East Forum
meforum.org
Think tank working to define and promote American interests in the Middle East.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/main/meforum.org

"Another effort to police dissent is focused on those who teach Middle East studies on college campuses. Middle East Forum, a think tank run by Daniel Pipes and supportive of the Israeli right wing, has established a Campus Watch website. After failing in his own pursuit of an academic career, Pipes has evidently decided to take revenge on the scholarly community that rejected him. ... Campus Watch notes that "Middle East studies in the United States has become the preserve of Middle Eastern Arabs, who have brought their views with them. Membership in the Middle East Studies Association (MESA), the main scholarly association, is now 50 percent of Middle Eastern origin." Some Americans have foolishly believed that all U.S. citizens have equal rights regardless of their country of origin and that pointing to peoples' country of origin to discredit them is a form of racism. This too, is outmoded thinking according to Campus Watch. But imagine the uproar that would be created by the suggestion that because Daniel Pipes is Jewish he may be more loyal to Israel than to the United States."
(Joel Beinin, "Who's watching the watchers?", History News Network, September 30, 2002).

Israel is not helped by quoting from extremists such as Daniel Pipes.

 

[Spymaster]

Ok, my mistake but you're not doubting the veracity of the article are you?

If so simply google "Sudan Mauritania Slavery" for any number of links from as varied a selection of sources as you could wish for.

 

[frogwoman]

What has what happens in African countries - where that sort of thing does go on in certain countries (although largely illegal), probably on both sides and Arab-on-arab and black-on-black as well, got to do with Palestine?

 

[Spymaster]

What has what happens in African countries - where that sort of thing does go on in certain countries (although largely illegal), probably on both sides and Arab-on-arab and black-on-black as well, got to do with Palestine?

Not a lot, imo.

Rachamim used the fact in an attempt to show the irony of a largely black African delegation siding with Islamic Arabs when even today black Africans are being enslaved by Arabs.

Pretty much a non-point really but Nino jumped on it for some reason, highlighting the claim as if he'd found the holy grail.

I was unaware that Arabs kept slaves so did a bit of research and came up with the above.

 

[nino_savatte]

No. what's your point?



I'll repeat, do you practice at being this fucking stupid?

Btw> Have you got any further with backing up your implication that Irgun and Stern targetted civilians? I'm sure you wouldn't want to forget about that.

1. You're being delberately obtuse
2. Your logic is flawed and your knowledge of apartheid-era SA is even more flawed.
3. I repeat: you're the one who is being stupid.

 

[nino_savatte]

Not a lot, imo.

Rachamim used the fact in an attempt to show the irony of a largely black African delegation siding with Islamic Arabs when even today black Africans are being enslaved by Arabs.

Pretty much a non-point really but Nino jumped on it for some reason, highlighting the claim as if he'd found the holy grail.

I was unaware that Arabs kept slaves so did a bit of research and came up with the above.

Er, you do realise that the Palestinian people aren't all: a) "Islamic Arabs" or b) Muslims? There is a large Orthodox Christian community in Palestine...I guess you forgot about them - non? Indeed the PFLP is a secular Marxist group, as are the DFLP, the PRFLP (defunct) and the PFLP-GC. Incidentally, the Iraqi Jews saw themselves as Arabs who practised Judaism. I guess you missed that one too?

Try doing some background reading for a change, instead of leaping in with both feet - eh?

 

[nino_savatte]

Well I did and Rachamim's right.

They do.

http://www.meforum.org/article/189

Hmmmm, Daniel Pipes.

 

[Spymaster]

Er, you do realise that the Palestinian people aren't all: a) "Islamic Arabs" or b) Muslims? There is a large Orthodox Christian community in Palestine...I guess you forgot about them - non? Indeed the PFLP is a secular Marxist group, as are the DFLP, the PRFLP (defunct) and the PFLP-GC. Incidentally, the Iraqi Jews saw themselves as Arabs who practised Judaism. I guess you missed that one too?

I'm aware of all of this though neither it's relevence to the thread or the contradiction to what's been posted.

You're argument is utterly illogical. Do you go out shoe shopping and come home with eggs?

Don't answer that. just put me back on ignore as you've now said you'll do several times.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm aware of all of this though neither it's relevence to the thread or the contradiction to what's been posted.

You're argument is utterly illogical. Do you go out shoe shopping and come home with eggs?

Don't answer that. just put me back on ignore as you've now said you'll do several times.

Rubbish, i don't think you are "aware of this". You claim that it isn't "relevant" simply because your claims have been found wanting.

If you were already aware of the secular nature of the PLO and others, how did you arrive at the conclusion that members of the ANC met with "Islamic Arabs"? You don't make any sense.

 

[Spymaster]

I haven't made any claims here you muppet!

I've just checked out the research that I said I would, that being the claim that black slaves were kept by arabs today.

I found that they are and posted as such.

Now. What is your fucking point? Do you have one or are you just trying to annoy me?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The above was within a couple of minutes of this post so the latter might have been missed. However please now take it into account.

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: Criticising "MEForum" is kind of non-sensical since one can make the same exact claims about so called "leftist" AKA "Labour Zionism" and its porponents such as "Tikkun," or any number of parroting shills.

Ideology is ideology is ideology. Being Israeli I certainly understand the need to identify with a party, after all we do not have Direct Elections. However, aside from the ballot I do not see much value in putting neat little labels on our personal outlooks. For example, in some ways I am extremely "right" and in others "far left." The fact that I vote Centrist has to do with the Kadima Party Platform and not Centrism per se. ("Kadima" is not related to having both attributes but because I buy into Sharon's vision for Israel's future (Withdrawal and Territorial Compromise , consolidating holdings to make one stronger in the face if dire opposition, almost like the Islamic theological concept of "hudna").

Pipes criticises the left. Gershonberg criticises the right,, and we all fall down...It makes no difference. Both have value, both have severe faults. To suggest that ME Forum however, hs no value is to be intellectualy dishonest. Some sites ARE devoid of REAL value but ME is not one of them, at all.

I want to point out in particular that Campus Watch is a fine group and while you surely find it a group trying to censor freethinking, I was auditing classes at Colombia when the whole Massad debacle took place. Indeed, if anyone tries to censor it is the biased fools at MESA. Denigrating an IDF soldier in full view of the class and calling him a baby killer as you turn red in the face with spittle shooting all over the place is disgusting and should have no place in ANY classroom, let alone the "progressive" West.


I know you might offer that "people in the class during that incident" maintain it never happened but you should know that SOME students happent to tape lectures and it is all on tape. I have heard it and I have been to rallies on campus where they defended the words.

Unfortunately Arabs have tried to steer N. American Mid-East Studies Programs in an Arab-centric direction and this is not only intellectualy stifling but is pushing Revisonist (not in terms of Zionism of HaShoah) nuttiness to the forefront. Crap like "Palestinians" are directly descended from Canaanites, Modern Egyptians are the direct inheritors of Ancient Egypt, and such unbelievable gems as "Islam is the 'original ' religion of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." To each their own but university graduate and post graduate programs should be devoid of such fringe garbage.

 

[nino_savatte]

I want to point out in particular that Campus Watch is a fine group and while you surely find it a group trying to censor freethinking, I was auditing classes at Colombia when the whole Massad debacle took place. Indeed, if anyone tries to censor it is the biased fools at MESA. Denigrating an IDF soldier in full view of the class and calling him a baby killer as you turn red in the face with spittle shooting all over the place is disgusting and should have no place in ANY classroom, let alone the "progressive" West.

Er, Campus Watch is just as vile as their counterparts in the now-defunct PABAAH.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Campus_Watch

As we already know, Daniel Pipes is the main mover and shaker behind Campus watch.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Daniel_Pipes

The entire rationale of groups like Campus Watch is to limit/restrict debate to the terms laid out by the pro-Israeli lobby (or any other right wing group). Any deviation from the script will result in [baseless] accusations of "anti-Semitism" and "bias".

 

[nino_savatte]

Like the above groups this one also has ties to other so-called conservative groups. Like Accuracy In Media, Accuracy in Academia isn't necessarily concerned with accuracy, rather it is more concerned with a notion of accuracy. In other words, they feel that universities should be places where knowledge is injected into the student's head rather than allow them to ask questions - which is the entire point of higher education: to question and to develop critical thinking.
http://www.academia.org//

Notice the effort to smear those who fought against Franco. According to AiA, the Abraham Lincoln Brigade were commie scum who deserve to be forgotten.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: Far be it from me to try and get to find the instrinisc worth I find so self evident in such fine groups as CW. Feel free of course, to laud whatt you wish, to critisise what you will, but okease do us both a favour and do so in a mture way so that the forum may continue and that you and I might also continue to conversate, Nuff' said.

I will add that Campus Watch began I believe when I had my brief expereince at Columbia. Massad, teaching in Mid-East Studies and a darling of the pampered bougie suburban whites who had not yet outgrown all their adolescent angst. One day he began preching how evil the IDF were and how it is an unwritten IDF policy to murder as manty Arab childreb as possible.

A man like me, Reservist in the IDF then schooling in NYC, naturally spoke up in a very polite manner and as he was booed by the majority of his "fair minded" classmates Massad approached him annd while both were standing was no more 6 cm from his face, cpittle flowing, as he berated the "Jewish (not Israeli) baby killer."

Officer Baby Killer spoke out , AFTER class and various academic Jewish groups, including some representing staff took the lead in trying to do away with this reprehensive rabble rouser,

Massab is a vile and nasty little man who got everything he deserved. Politics DO have a place in the classroom, especially in a Poly-Sci related courseload but should be balanced and placed in the proper context. They do not have a place where students are singled out for unrelated criticisms of the worst kind.

As for your second post, that is pretty much your usual belnd of angst and hyperbole. No offence but I have not bothered myself either way about the Spanish Civil War. Loved "Pan's Labrynith" though!!!

I trouble myself alot less with non-sensical labels like "right wing" and more with "Actual truth." Perhaps you MIGHT take THAT one to health.

 

[nino_savatte]

Whatever.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: Glad YOU ccan agree then!

 

[nino_savatte]

I wasn't agreeing with you, numpty. Are you thick as well as arrogant?

 

[rachamim18]

Thanks Again Bright Star!

 

[nino_savatte]

You've proved my point, thanks.

 

[rachamim18]

You are quite welcome! Have a great day!