FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Stop this please.
Israel worse than apartheid South Africa, say ANC veterans
- Thread starter Spion
- Start date
Stop this please.
Littlebaby: "No vote equals no legitimacy of govt.": Right, who said otherwise? Deligetiamising a govt. is of no consequence in relation to this topic. Terrorism is prohibited under International Law. You do not have to have a say in any entity. IF you commit acts of terrorism you are automatically guilty regardless of the political entity that surounds you, or that which you oppose.
Bernie: "Ex-Betar guy calling the ANC terrorists.": First, I have never, ever belonged to Betar or any affiliated group. However, I WAS a Kahanist, a member of the JDL, JDO, B'nei Akiba, KACH, and Kahane Chai. I AM on Terrorist Watchlists (as well as on Interdiction Lists, was No Fly for a short while until hiring a lawyer and with assistance from the US organisation ACLU) but have never commited an act of terrorism. Indeed, I never supported any such thing and no longer even suscribe to the ideology espoused by Kahanists OR Kahanism itself.
That said, I can easily call the ANC terrorists because they were. They have since rejected it, as has Mandela, but that does negate past actions. Murder has no statute of limitations anywhere in the world that I am aware of, certainly not in International OR South African Laws.
Fez: "So, presumably Rachamim is ok with State Terrorism as practiced by Israel?": First, Israel does not practice terrorism in any way, shape, or form. Secondly, it does not Sponsor Terrorism in anyway, shape, or form. Lastly, aside from those two FACTS, I would never support terrorism of any kind.
In the Yishuv Era (pre-Statehood Israel) there were 2 Jewish terrorist organisations, "Irgun" (Irgun Z'vei L'eumi AKA IZL as an abbreviation) and "Stern" (Lochamei Herut Yisroel AKA LEHI in English as an Acronym). Irgun as a rule did not target non-combatants, although sometimes some unintended victims were effected. Stern DID target Arab non-combatants in retaliation operations.
NEITHER one was excusable. BOTH were bloodsucking scum who I would personally, no qualm at all, kill with my own hands given the chance. Indeed many Jews turned in members as well as arms caches and refused rewards for doing so seeing the 2 groups as a collective stain, a huge blot on our image and culture as a whole.
During the pre-1948 War stages and during the War we needed every hand that could fire a gun. Were facing incredible opposition and aside form extra hands those 2 groups also possesed decent collections of weapons and so Gurion reluctantly made deals with the devil(s). Both were incorporated into Haganah (the actual name was Irgun Haganah, not to be confused with the afore mentioned Irgun. Irgun is Hebrew for the word "organisation") with nominal oversight during lone Ops, but more often than not from the time of incorporation they were part of joint forces and as such wee under Haganh hierarchy.
After the war , the leader of Irgun, Menachem Begin and another member of the terrorist groups, Yitchak Shamir went onto lead the Likud Bloc which was Israel's main right wing coallition. We started our existence as a hard left entity and so the 2 men were still viewed as marginal figures. The Labour Party as it is known in English dominated our political life until the late 1970s and then the right began to take advanatge of the hard left's natural failures (natural in that I} leftist ideology is naturally inept and ineffective and II} Israel was in its infancy and any regime would have made huge missteps).
The men had long ago renounced terrorism and had entered the mainstream, albeit as opposition figures but now had, at 2 different times of course, control of the govt. The renounced terror and left it behind...just like Mandela.
Yet in my mind (and that of others), nothing they could ever possibly do would ever negate their earlier acts. To purposely take the lives of non-combatants is despicable and I believe almost all soldiers will say the same. Death is easy to discuss from a PC in Surrey, or Nottingham but should you face it day in and day out you take a different tact. I find life absolutely precious. It is all too brief in its longest opportunity. To have it snuffed out in the blink of an eye over someone else's goals is abhorrent to me.
I do not care how just anyone sees any goal. To purposely cause violence indiscriminately is inexcusable. Even if ALL victims were white Afrikaners who hated blacks and wished for eternal Apartheid, if they were non-combatant there is no excuse to take their lives.
Bernie: "Ex-Betar guy calling the ANC terrorists.": First, I have never, ever belonged to Betar or any affiliated group. However, I WAS a Kahanist, a member of the JDL, JDO, B'nei Akiba, KACH, and Kahane Chai. I AM on Terrorist Watchlists (as well as on Interdiction Lists, was No Fly for a short while until hiring a lawyer and with assistance from the US organisation ACLU) but have never commited an act of terrorism. Indeed, I never supported any such thing and no longer even suscribe to the ideology espoused by Kahanists OR Kahanism itself.
That said, I can easily call the ANC terrorists because they were. They have since rejected it, as has Mandela, but that does negate past actions. Murder has no statute of limitations anywhere in the world that I am aware of, certainly not in International OR South African Laws.
Fez: "So, presumably Rachamim is ok with State Terrorism as practiced by Israel?": First, Israel does not practice terrorism in any way, shape, or form. Secondly, it does not Sponsor Terrorism in anyway, shape, or form. Lastly, aside from those two FACTS, I would never support terrorism of any kind.
In the Yishuv Era (pre-Statehood Israel) there were 2 Jewish terrorist organisations, "Irgun" (Irgun Z'vei L'eumi AKA IZL as an abbreviation) and "Stern" (Lochamei Herut Yisroel AKA LEHI in English as an Acronym). Irgun as a rule did not target non-combatants, although sometimes some unintended victims were effected. Stern DID target Arab non-combatants in retaliation operations.
NEITHER one was excusable. BOTH were bloodsucking scum who I would personally, no qualm at all, kill with my own hands given the chance. Indeed many Jews turned in members as well as arms caches and refused rewards for doing so seeing the 2 groups as a collective stain, a huge blot on our image and culture as a whole.
During the pre-1948 War stages and during the War we needed every hand that could fire a gun. Were facing incredible opposition and aside form extra hands those 2 groups also possesed decent collections of weapons and so Gurion reluctantly made deals with the devil(s). Both were incorporated into Haganah (the actual name was Irgun Haganah, not to be confused with the afore mentioned Irgun. Irgun is Hebrew for the word "organisation") with nominal oversight during lone Ops, but more often than not from the time of incorporation they were part of joint forces and as such wee under Haganh hierarchy.
After the war , the leader of Irgun, Menachem Begin and another member of the terrorist groups, Yitchak Shamir went onto lead the Likud Bloc which was Israel's main right wing coallition. We started our existence as a hard left entity and so the 2 men were still viewed as marginal figures. The Labour Party as it is known in English dominated our political life until the late 1970s and then the right began to take advanatge of the hard left's natural failures (natural in that I} leftist ideology is naturally inept and ineffective and II} Israel was in its infancy and any regime would have made huge missteps).
The men had long ago renounced terrorism and had entered the mainstream, albeit as opposition figures but now had, at 2 different times of course, control of the govt. The renounced terror and left it behind...just like Mandela.
Yet in my mind (and that of others), nothing they could ever possibly do would ever negate their earlier acts. To purposely take the lives of non-combatants is despicable and I believe almost all soldiers will say the same. Death is easy to discuss from a PC in Surrey, or Nottingham but should you face it day in and day out you take a different tact. I find life absolutely precious. It is all too brief in its longest opportunity. To have it snuffed out in the blink of an eye over someone else's goals is abhorrent to me.
I do not care how just anyone sees any goal. To purposely cause violence indiscriminately is inexcusable. Even if ALL victims were white Afrikaners who hated blacks and wished for eternal Apartheid, if they were non-combatant there is no excuse to take their lives.
Even though there is no immediate threat of militay defeat to Israel from their neighbours (unless you count Iran which I would imagine most Israelis do) it isn't comparable to any western countries. No western countries have had war on their 'home soil' (obviously a dodgy term given the circumstances) since the 40s. Hezbollah have been firing missiles at random Israeli's for years, the Welsh never did that to England (more's the pity lol)
For example, if France, Holland and Luxembourg all had powerful armed groups demanding that Belgium disappeared and a large degree of the French speakers did not recognise Belgium and supported armed anti belgian groups, I'm sure that there would be chaos there as well
Fez: "How else does Rachamim justify the assainations of members of other political parties , which are nothing more than the killing of non-combatnats.": No offence but you seem a bit confused. See, Israel DOES have a procedure called "Focused Foiling" (translated from Hebrew). One CAN use the euphanism "Extra-Judicial Execution" quite aptly. However, ALL targets are known terrorists. Politicos are only killed if they have blood on their hands.
You need to remember that HAMAS, for example, as well as PIJ, which are the two main parties (whose members are targetted) BOTH have Charters calling for the murder of EVERY Jew on the planet, as well as the obvious destruction and annihilation of Israel and all its People.
Before such an operation can take place there is a very legal process that takes palce. There is a prosecutorr, there is a lwayer who represents the intended target. The lawyer plays the devil's advocate (no pun intended). Then there is a judge. If it is determined that such a person actually has blood on their hands they are neutralised.
Israel would much rather have respective authorities (HAMAS in Gaza, PA in so called 'WB') arrest and even try to men in lieu of handing them over to Israel if THAT was their qualm. However, this has never , ever happened. Indeed, evenwithin the PA terrorists are often supported tacitly or otherwise.
The only alternative to "Foiling" is to sit back and wait for more inncoents to die in Israel. I also want to add that the people are not targetted for violence against Israeli authorities but for violence against non-combatants.
Lacking any justice whatsoever, Israel must exact it itself.
"Nino: "Nino is not sure where Rachamim gets his stories on the ANC from.":
So, you maintain that Mandela did NOT publicly call for violence? Do you maintain that the ANC did NOT undertake a campign of random bombings and violent actions? I cannot wait to hear your take on this.
"Did S. African whites live in Soweto?": Nope, so what? Do Arabs live in Israel? YES. Do Jews live in Gaza? NO. Hmm, maybe you have been wrong on your whole rationale?
"Rachamim is quite clearly white, he has not had to suffer privations experienced by non-white S. Africans.": First, indeed I am very white coloured and with light blue eyes. Yet my father was a dark skinned man and 5 of my 6 of my living children are NOT white (3 in Israel are black, 1 here is Puerto Rican which are a mized race people of African, Ameri-Indian, and white backgrounds, and the 5th is Mexican which is msotly Ameri-Indian and perhaps (although in her case sepaking of her mom, I do not think there was any white). So, I have alot of expereince confronting different attitudes in terms of race, as well as being a Jew which poresents awhole other range of dynamics to deal with.
As for S. Africa, if it was still under Apartheid I would have problems myself because my wife is (a convert though) Filipina and miscenegation was not allowed.
What does it matter though in terms of the ANC having been terrorists? My view corresponds to what? I hated Aprtheid. I hated that country and its racial crimes. I also hate terrorism and those that commit it. Only you would see it in such a balck and white manner (no pun intended). In your mind,coming out against criminala cts by the ANC must mean I am all for the criminal acts of the Apartheid regime. Nino, adults realise one thing does not neccessarily lead to the other.
"Nino asks, 'What is your proof that ANC's terrorist violence indiscriminately tagetted all S. African demographics?' Nino continues: 'Oh, that is right, you are Jewish...": WHAT? You are starting to scare me. You really make less and less sense with every subsequent post. Are you ok Nino?
Panda:"The move from pacificsm within ANC policy was made not by Mandela but by Tambo.":You are wrong. I was watching an introspective on the Robin Island group this week and was reminded yet again about how the policy was formulated by Mandela. I wish I could recall the former prisoner's name was was talking on it, the Indian man who is 10 years younger than Mandela...I am sure that helps (as if) but that is who reiterated (to me) that issue.
"Disavowing the parent , child is guilty for sins of the parent.": In terms of organisational ideology, ABSOLUTELY.
You need to remember that HAMAS, for example, as well as PIJ, which are the two main parties (whose members are targetted) BOTH have Charters calling for the murder of EVERY Jew on the planet, as well as the obvious destruction and annihilation of Israel and all its People.
Before such an operation can take place there is a very legal process that takes palce. There is a prosecutorr, there is a lwayer who represents the intended target. The lawyer plays the devil's advocate (no pun intended). Then there is a judge. If it is determined that such a person actually has blood on their hands they are neutralised.
Israel would much rather have respective authorities (HAMAS in Gaza, PA in so called 'WB') arrest and even try to men in lieu of handing them over to Israel if THAT was their qualm. However, this has never , ever happened. Indeed, evenwithin the PA terrorists are often supported tacitly or otherwise.
The only alternative to "Foiling" is to sit back and wait for more inncoents to die in Israel. I also want to add that the people are not targetted for violence against Israeli authorities but for violence against non-combatants.
Lacking any justice whatsoever, Israel must exact it itself.
"Nino: "Nino is not sure where Rachamim gets his stories on the ANC from.":
So, you maintain that Mandela did NOT publicly call for violence? Do you maintain that the ANC did NOT undertake a campign of random bombings and violent actions? I cannot wait to hear your take on this.
"Did S. African whites live in Soweto?": Nope, so what? Do Arabs live in Israel? YES. Do Jews live in Gaza? NO. Hmm, maybe you have been wrong on your whole rationale?
"Rachamim is quite clearly white, he has not had to suffer privations experienced by non-white S. Africans.": First, indeed I am very white coloured and with light blue eyes. Yet my father was a dark skinned man and 5 of my 6 of my living children are NOT white (3 in Israel are black, 1 here is Puerto Rican which are a mized race people of African, Ameri-Indian, and white backgrounds, and the 5th is Mexican which is msotly Ameri-Indian and perhaps (although in her case sepaking of her mom, I do not think there was any white). So, I have alot of expereince confronting different attitudes in terms of race, as well as being a Jew which poresents awhole other range of dynamics to deal with.
As for S. Africa, if it was still under Apartheid I would have problems myself because my wife is (a convert though) Filipina and miscenegation was not allowed.
What does it matter though in terms of the ANC having been terrorists? My view corresponds to what? I hated Aprtheid. I hated that country and its racial crimes. I also hate terrorism and those that commit it. Only you would see it in such a balck and white manner (no pun intended). In your mind,coming out against criminala cts by the ANC must mean I am all for the criminal acts of the Apartheid regime. Nino, adults realise one thing does not neccessarily lead to the other.
"Nino asks, 'What is your proof that ANC's terrorist violence indiscriminately tagetted all S. African demographics?' Nino continues: 'Oh, that is right, you are Jewish...": WHAT? You are starting to scare me. You really make less and less sense with every subsequent post. Are you ok Nino?
Panda:"The move from pacificsm within ANC policy was made not by Mandela but by Tambo.":You are wrong. I was watching an introspective on the Robin Island group this week and was reminded yet again about how the policy was formulated by Mandela. I wish I could recall the former prisoner's name was was talking on it, the Indian man who is 10 years younger than Mandela...I am sure that helps (as if) but that is who reiterated (to me) that issue.
"Disavowing the parent , child is guilty for sins of the parent.": In terms of organisational ideology, ABSOLUTELY.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
And yet Mandela's own biographies and those of his contemporaries say different, that Mandela, from the mid 1960s on, was a figurehead with little operational control.
I wish you could too.
Then you're even more of a foll than I thought.
Still, such a believe does serve to underline your support for collective punishment.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
How odd that you, a nationalist Zionist, would baulk at the thought of an armed liberation struggle, given the fact that your own country was forged out of violence and involved terrorism to achieve that end.
You made a spurious claim about whites and blacks living together. Have a look at your post.
Whatever, you're not going to be treated differently because of the colour of your skin.
This contradicts a great deal of what you've already said with regards to SA. "Miscegenation" is a rather old-fashioned expression beloved of Dixiecrats and Southern racists. I find it interesting that you would use such a term.
Really? What about the Irgun? Furthermore, the ANC was a political party not an army of liberation, that was the responsibility of Umkhonto we Sizwe...who, it has to be said, weren't entirely successful in their efforts. However, your argument is a strawman designed to deflect attention away from the realities of the struggle against apartheid and the numerous comparisons that can be made with Israel's treatment of those living in the occupied territories. Settlements continue to be built and Palestinians continue to be forced from their homes.
It is interesting that you would ignore the numerous deaths that occurred during Sharpeville and the Soweto riots at the hands of the SA Police (as well as other agencies such as BOSS).
You've really lost the plot here.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Panda: The same introspection (C-Span actually, several hours long I suppose because of Mandela's birthday) was talking about how Mandela told Tambo to act as the figurehead so as to retain currecny and relevancy (I MUST have already mentioned this). I am sure that you know nothing happened without the so called Higher Committee, the Robin Island group. Tambo had to be talked into going out of the country, he was nothing but a beard.
Nino: How odd that Rachamim being a staunch Zionist would balk at another National Liberation Movement.": Zionists are not "Palestinians" or Irish Provos. We do not agree with all revolutionary groups, we agree with causes on their merits. That said, the ANC's CAUSE was excellent, it was their methodology that was atrocious.
"Israel was formed out of violence and terrorism.": And yet not one British civilian was targetted. What does THAT tell you?
"Rachamim made a spurious claim about whites and blacks living together...": Only you see that.
"Rachamim would not be treated differently based upon his skin colour.": Nope, quite right. I "pass" rather nicely. Alot of good it is has done me.
"Nino finds Rachamim's use of the word miscenegation to be curious given its usual use by Dixiecrats,etc.": And yet it is fitting and so...
Yes, the ANC WAS the political arm and THEY set the policy, Mandela said as much.
Why would I mention S. African authorities when we are discussing the ANC specifically?
Nino: How odd that Rachamim being a staunch Zionist would balk at another National Liberation Movement.": Zionists are not "Palestinians" or Irish Provos. We do not agree with all revolutionary groups, we agree with causes on their merits. That said, the ANC's CAUSE was excellent, it was their methodology that was atrocious.
"Israel was formed out of violence and terrorism.": And yet not one British civilian was targetted. What does THAT tell you?
"Rachamim made a spurious claim about whites and blacks living together...": Only you see that.
"Rachamim would not be treated differently based upon his skin colour.": Nope, quite right. I "pass" rather nicely. Alot of good it is has done me.
"Nino finds Rachamim's use of the word miscenegation to be curious given its usual use by Dixiecrats,etc.": And yet it is fitting and so...
Yes, the ANC WAS the political arm and THEY set the policy, Mandela said as much.
Why would I mention S. African authorities when we are discussing the ANC specifically?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I'm going to ignore the rest of your post because it contains the usual bullshit, diversions, evasions and baseless accusations.
Perhaps you've never heard of the King David Hotel...which is odd for a nationalist Zionist. How about Menachem Begin...ring any bells?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
You ignored this, R18, may I ask why?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Oh because that was a civilian target wasn't it?
Err..... not!
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Kingdavid.htm
Fool.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Er, like there are no civilians working in government offices? LOL!!!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Does it really matter or is it the case that you're simply splitting hairs for the sake of an argument?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Which rather contradicts his other posts on this forum over the years. Why not go back and have a read of his other posts and threads - eh?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ah, the old "splitting hairs" defence. It's a favourite of Grannys when he's caught out too!
Yes it matters and here's why. Rachamim asked you a question:
You dishonestly cited the King David bombing as evidence that Irgun (scum to a man, imo, btw) has indeed targetted civilians, almost inferring that the hotel was full of tourists, thus suggesting that civilians were the target.R18 said:
I have shown that you were in fact, talking bollocks!
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Well quote them then, eh?
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Now you are talking shite mate.
Yeah, it was out of order to bring you into it but it reminded me of something you said to me recently in similar circumstances.
However, I apologise.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Because there was a specific and very direct claim being made by Rach-and you tried to argue the toss Rach was right in a roundabout way. He wasn't and I felt you were splitting hairs as well as ignoring the entire context of his posts and previous behaviour on the ME forum.
Apology accepted.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
They're freely available to read in this forum. Read them yourself and stop being so lazy. I presume you have eyes?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I haven't been "caught out" as you put it and you're splitting hairs.
Would you like to tell me what the title of this thread is and how R18's 'argument' is relevant to the discussion?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
You mean with regard to the King David bombing?
Because you brought it up!
Nino said:
Give this up Nino.
Or show that Israeli terrorists have deliberately targetted civilians. That's what you set out to do with your post above. It failed. Try again.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
What is the title of this thread and what has R18's response to it been? Stop being such pointless nitpicker and try reading his posts on this and other threads.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
No, you give this up. It is clear that you haven't even bothered to read much on this forum and have taken it upon yourself to act as some sort of witchfinder general.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
You're remarkably silent about this post, Spymaster. Why?
Here's a clue: pay attention to the parts of the text that are in bold type.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Oh I see.
So the point is clearly worthy of debate when you initially introduce the King David bombing to the thread. When your erroneous argument is flagged up you attempt to bolster it by saying
And when that argument gets demolished you accuse me of "nitpicking" and the entire point (introduced by you) suddenly becomes irrelevant anyway!!!Nino said:
If you had Rachamim over this barrel you'd labour the point for a month and chase him around the net shouting "liar, Liar".
I, on the other hand, am once again prepared to allow the posts to speak for themselves and let observers see what a dishonest snake you are.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I'll deal with it later if you want. I've work to do now.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ok, I've reread the post you quoted and disagree with Rachamim's descriptions of the delegation. I will also research his claim that some Arabs still hold black slaves. I also think Rachamim dismisses the "vet's" rather unfairly.
I agree with his views on the use of checkpoints.
With regard to the last paragraph that you highlight, "whites and blacks meeting in SA", I assume he means that there was a modicum of social crossover there, that doesn't occur in the west bank. Whites and blacks frequently met in aparthied South Africa. They didn't live together and whites institutionally oppressed blacks but individuals certainly met in many walks of life. I assume this isn't the case in the WB.
It is a slightly confusing passage, but I'm not sure what you think you've gained by highlighting it.
Now what about your implication that Stern or Irgun have targetted civilians? I assume you concede regarding the King David bombing. Got anything else?
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