Israel, what have you done?

[pembrokestephen]

Actually there is no excuse for your stupidity.

the nazi's wanted to establish a greater arayan germany by ethnically cleansing the area of ethnic undesireables. Israel wishes to do exactly the same thing and establish a greater israel. The only difference is the methods. The fundamental ideology is identical.

They even have a special name for it, just in case the goyim are listening.

Eretz Israel.

Starting from the Euphrates, ending at the sea...

 

[pembrokestephen]

I agree completely, the unstated goal of this military action is undoubtedly the military takeover of all of Lebanon and the eventual expulsion of all its Muslim inhabitants!

Crap.

It's actually - probably - rather worse than that.

Well, it's either massive hubris and a major cockup on Israel's part, or it's part of a very evil and nasty plan that willl eventually involve Israel in fighting a proxy war in the Middle East on the US's behalf...

 

[ViolentPanda]

FFS.

Your own UK law defines the word racist to include anti-Jewishness.

And has done for all of a couple of years. What's your point, that I should take a piece of legislation specifically aimed at including Judeophobia within "hate crimes" law as the delineator of who I am?

Get fucking real.

What the hell is race anyway?

You tell me, you're the one throwing the word around.

the dictionary says

"a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock"

Ah, you've gone for the general dictionary definition. Good for you, it's about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

So if Jewishness is "overwhelmingly by descent" how is it not a race?

Can you marry into a "race", actually become a member of that "race"? By marrying an African-American do you become a member of the African-American "race"?

And what word would you use for someone who despises Jews?

Judeophobia.

If someone were to tell you they "hate arabs" is that person a racist?

That depends on the context of their "hate".

And if you call them such do you really need someone to tell you that:

'actually, arab is not a race so your either lazy or stupid for not using the right terminology'

Ah, so what it boils down to is bob getting angry at being corrected. Wicked me for daring to contradict you!

And as to your first point ... where did you get that little gem of wisdom from

Your mother, where else?

 

[jiggajagga]

Oh, do fuck off with your all-American "democracy, mom's apple pie and liberty" schtick. It's bollocks.

I've worked in both the US, and the Middle East. Both places have wonderful people who are proud of their country, welcoming to visitors, warm, human, decent people.

Both places have their flaws, and both places have their advantages.

But if you think that the American way is in any way inherently "better" than the Middle Eastern one, then you know fuck-all about one or other of them. There is little democracy in (say) the UAE - but the people are as free there as any American is. Free enterprise is alive, vibrant and well, just as it is in the US. So, for the record, is racism: Arabs are just as racist as the US can be. They hire in migrant labour at ludicrously low wages, but you know what? The migrants are pretty happy to be there earning 5 times what they'd be earning in India, Pakistan, or the Philippines, just as the US's migrants are happy to be working for pittances.

The main difference I noticed is that there is very much less evident poverty in the Middle East (or at least in the UAE, where I spent most time). In the US, being panhandled was a routine occurrence; less so out East.

As for American democracy or justice? Well...your leaders lie, cheat, and steal, and your justice is equal, so long as you have the money to pay for it. Your democratic systems are a parody: tiny unrepresentative groups have a disproportionate influence (eg the religious right), while corporations and anyone rich enough to fund lobbyists can dictate the agenda of government without breaking a sweat. If that's the system you guys want to live under, that's fine, but lay off on the whole forcing it on anyone else you choose to deal, because it isn't THAT fucking good.

Tell you what, I'm putting this post forward as post of the year!
Absolutely fucking brilliant. Well said Pembroke. Ever thought of becoming PM?

 

[pembrokestephen]

Tell you what, I'm putting this post forward as post of the year!
Absolutely fucking brilliant. Well said Pembroke. Ever thought of becoming PM?

They'd never have me. Too much integrity. Me, that is.

 

[mears]

Oh, do fuck off with your all-American "democracy, mom's apple pie and liberty" schtick. It's bollocks.

I've worked in both the US, and the Middle East. Both places have wonderful people who are proud of their country, welcoming to visitors, warm, human, decent people.

Both places have their flaws, and both places have their advantages.

But if you think that the American way is in any way inherently "better" than the Middle Eastern one, then you know fuck-all about one or other of them. There is little democracy in (say) the UAE - but the people are as free there as any American is. Free enterprise is alive, vibrant and well, just as it is in the US. So, for the record, is racism: Arabs are just as racist as the US can be. They hire in migrant labour at ludicrously low wages, but you know what? The migrants are pretty happy to be there earning 5 times what they'd be earning in India, Pakistan, or the Philippines, just as the US's migrants are happy to be working for pittances.

The main difference I noticed is that there is very much less evident poverty in the Middle East (or at least in the UAE, where I spent most time). In the US, being panhandled was a routine occurrence; less so out East.

As for American democracy or justice? Well...your leaders lie, cheat, and steal, and your justice is equal, so long as you have the money to pay for it. Your democratic systems are a parody: tiny unrepresentative groups have a disproportionate influence (eg the religious right), while corporations and anyone rich enough to fund lobbyists can dictate the agenda of government without breaking a sweat. If that's the system you guys want to live under, that's fine, but lay off on the whole forcing it on anyone else you choose to deal, because it isn't THAT fucking good.

All America all the time. Such a chip on the shoulder about the US.

Another supporter of the status quo in the Middle East. Such a noble stance

 

[Belushi]

Such a chip on the shoulder about the US.

Seriously mears why do you think America is so loathed around the world?

You're an intelligent guy you cant truly believe all that guff about people 'hating your freedom' etc?

 

[nino_savatte]

Don't get me wrong, I do not want you have any alternatives. And in fact you don't have any alternatives.

Keep bitching away...

Cheap, cheap, cheap...and all this from someone who sees the world outside the US as one, great big mass just waiting to be 'freed' by the American ideals of unfettered capitalism.

Keep making ignorant statements.

 

[nino_savatte]

All America all the time.:

I speak your weight. Insert coin.

 

[TAE]

All America all the time. Such a chip on the shoulder about the US.

Another supporter of the status quo in the Middle East. Such a noble stance

It was a response to your celebration of US activities in posts #68 and #69.

 

[angry bob]

Ah, so what it boils down to is bob getting angry at being corrected. Wicked me for daring to contradict you!

What is boils down to VP is this:

A poster starts a thread stating he despises jews.

I call the guy a racist (using both the legal and dictionary definitions)

You decide to attack my use of language while seemingly ignoring the guy who says he 'despises jews'


Imagine the following situation.

You are in the pub or whereever and some guy starts mouthing off that he "hates the bloody pakis"

You (rightly IMO) call the guy a 'fucking racist cunt' or some such.

Then I come in and start insulting you for using the wrong word:

'pakistani is not a race you know'

 

[Streathamite]

Again you support the status quo. And the staus quo in the ME sucks. Poverty, hereditary autocracies banning political parties, no scientific patents or anyother technological breakthroughs.

And you, in all your wisdom, support the status quo.

oh ffs. Azrael23 DID say what he supported. as did EVERY member of the peace camp. it's a concept your country was actually founded on, and your leaders used to expound countless rhetoric on, but I appreciate the intellectual challenge - not to mention the hypocrisy - may fry your brain;
It's called self-determination.
IN other words, these aren't 'our' countries to sort out. government in the last resort rests on the consent of the governed, so ONLY the poeple of Iraq, iran, KSA can effect regime change. It is entirely up to them. It means the US STOPS installing puppets like the house of saud or henchmen like saddam, it means in fact - for the sake of global sanity - you clear out of the m/east and let everyone there get on with their livesx.
Now, is that so astonishingly hard to understand?
btw, you do know that just about every rotten m/east regime, bar iran, was either put there or kept there by your political overlords, don't you?

 

[angry bob]

btw, you do know that just about every rotten m/east regime, bar iran, was either put there or kept there by your political overlords, don't you?

This is the point. Although mears is right when he says that the status quo in the middle east sucks (as it does pretty much everywhere), it was US meddling that caused most of the problems in the first place.

I mean Saddam wouldnt have been in power if it werent for the US govt.

I have heard people make the point that its up to us to sort it out though ... IMO we'll just make it worse.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What is boils down to VP is this:

A poster starts a thread stating he despises jews.

I call the guy a racist (using both the legal and dictionary definitions)

You decide to attack my use of language while seemingly ignoring the guy who says he 'despises jews'

That's right. "Seemingly". To you.

Imagine the following situation.

You are in the pub or whereever and some guy starts mouthing off that he "hates the bloody pakis"

You (rightly IMO) call the guy a 'fucking racist cunt' or some such.

No, I'd ask him what his problem was, and then if I didn't like his answer I'd twat him.

Then I come in and start insulting you for using the wrong word:

'pakistani is not a race you know'

So in fact this is about "... bob getting angry at being corrected".

BTW, "Pakistani" ISN'T a race.

 

[pembrokestephen]

All America all the time. Such a chip on the shoulder about the US.

And with people like you to represent it, that won't come as a surprise to many. To me - and, for all I know, to many others on here - you come across as a typical example of what is worst about the US: the inward-looking protectionist, who cares nothing for the greater world, and whose only interest in anywhere "alien" is tied intimately to what good it might serve to you and your country.

Another supporter of the status quo in the Middle East. Such a noble stance

Oh, most definitely not. I don't support the status quo in the Middle East at all. That would suggest that I support the building US hegemony there; that I support its sponsorship of its client state Israel in its continuing and obscene attempts to create a zone sanitaire (that's French, by the way: you probably know them as "those cheese-eating surrender monkeys" ) around their country, thereby increasing the need for such a zone with every step one of their troops takes on someone else's sovereign land.

Status quo? No, not while America's meddling hands continue to tear the place apart.

 

[angry bob]

BTW, "Pakistani" ISN'T a race.

I know ... that was my point

but the cunts who go around saying paki this and paki that are doing so cause they're racist motherfuckers, iyswim

I dunno ... I dont mean to be a jerk about this

 

[angry bob]

So in fact this is about "... bob getting angry at being corrected".

Well ... quite possibly

I'm always angry you know

 

[Azrael23]

Don't get me wrong, I do not want you have any alternatives. And in fact you don't have any alternatives.

Keep bitching away...

I see, so if someone points out your obvious ignorance they`re "bitching"...

Your not even a real republican btw your just a mindless follower.

 

[mears]

And with people like you to represent it, that won't come as a surprise to many. To me - and, for all I know, to many others on here - you come across as a typical example of what is worst about the US: the inward-looking protectionist, who cares nothing for the greater world, and whose only interest in anywhere "alien" is tied intimately to what good it might serve to you and your country.


Oh, most definitely not. I don't support the status quo in the Middle East at all. That would suggest that I support the building US hegemony there; that I support its sponsorship of its client state Israel in its continuing and obscene attempts to create a zone sanitaire (that's French, by the way: you probably know them as "those cheese-eating surrender monkeys" ) around their country, thereby increasing the need for such a zone with every step one of their troops takes on someone else's sovereign land.

Status quo? No, not while America's meddling hands continue to tear the place apart.

Funny, I make no presumtions about you. Its usually not good to make such gross generalizations about people. However, I do have a multitude of writings for you to draw on to prove your thesis. If you would want to bring something up we could chat about it. Here are some random ideas about foreign policy - international relations I hold dear:

I believe in free trade. I don't know a free trade agreement I don't like. Not real protectionist in that sense. I believe in a strong military and investments in military technology. The United States and the EU have much more in common than differences and I believe the US and Europe should work in tandem on issues dealing with the ME, Africa, aids, poverty etc. We all represent free markets and personal freedom. Millions around the world want to live amongst us. We are the lucky ones. I believe working with China instead of treating them as a future enemy. I believe we need to keep NATO forces in Afghanistan and I believe its time to draw down troops in Iraq. NATO is a good organization, any club with outsiders knocking at the door wanting to get in is a good club. I believe agricultural subsidies need to be cut, from the US midwest to the heart of france. Its the least we can do for third world, plus its a drain on our government resources.

Some things off the top of my head. Not sure if that conforms to your ideas on me or everyday ignorant Americans but there it is!

This is one of the great things about the internet (what country did that come from ) we can talk about our beliefs and ideals.

I wonder what you believe in, what you would like to see come out of international relations. Car to share? Do you have the ability to share?

Lets learn from one another.

 

[fela fan]

Funny, I make no presumtions about you. Its usually not good to make such gross generalizations about people.

...

Millions around the world want to live amongst us.

But you do make presumptions about millions of others!

Not only that, but i think you're way wrong. You might have had a point during the last century, but since bush got hold of your country, things like respect, liking, admiration that did exist towards the US have plummeted. And naturally enough, those people who have been at the receiving end of american weapons and bombs will harbour some natural hatred towards your country (for some reason this hardly ever goes towards the UK, even though we always back you up in your foreign policy crimes and massacres).

Your president mate is a sickening, thuggish example of leadership, and, whether you're prepared to see this or not, has done massive damage to the reputation of america and americans in general.

I have read countless americans saying this, as well as the view of countless non-americans.

Gore Vidal for example thinks it's going to take two generations to get back to where you were just a dozen or so years ago.

 

[mears]

But you do make presumptions about millions of others!

Not only that, but i think you're way wrong. You might have had a point during the last century, but since bush got hold of your country, things like respect, liking, admiration that did exist towards the US have plummeted. And naturally enough, those people who have been at the receiving end of american weapons and bombs will harbour some natural hatred towards your country (for some reason this hardly ever goes towards the UK, even though we always back you up in your foreign policy crimes and massacres).

Your president mate is a sickening, thuggish example of leadership, and, whether you're prepared to see this or not, has done massive damage to the reputation of america and americans in general.

I have read countless americans saying this, as well as the view of countless non-americans.

Gore Vidal for example thinks it's going to take two generations to get back to where you were just a dozen or so years ago.

So what do you hold dear? What do you believe in in regards do international relations?

What does anyone around here believe in?

 

[nino_savatte]

So what do you hold dear? What do you believe in in regards do international relations?

What does anyone around here believe in?

I speak your weight. Insert coin.

What a sanctimonious cunt you are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So what do you hold dear? What do you believe in in regards do international relations?

What does anyone around here believe in?

Belief is immaterial. Knowledge is what is important.

 

[angry bob]

.
Do try and get it right.

You know what ... fuck it ... I was right ... I used both the dictionary and legal definitions.

I'm not sure how you define words in panda land but here we use a dictionary ... might want to invest in one rather than arbitrarily assigning meaning to words

And ffs ... race is a pretty damn vague concept as it is. Here in the states if a guy:

"hates the greasy fucking mexicans",

"despises hispanics",

"can't stand the damn chinks"


or any of the above ... then he's a fucking racist.

And that's according to both the dictionary and to the legal def.

 

[Azrael23]

Belief is immaterial. Knowledge is what is important.

*thinks about seriously derailing thread......

*walks away...

 

[Jonti]

... race is a pretty damn vague concept as it is.

It's about as vague as it gets. It just means a people. One could even talk about the American race, thinking of Americans as a rather exitable, literal minded crowd.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You know what ... fuck it ... I was right ... I used both the dictionary and legal definitions.

I'm not sure how you define words in panda land but here we use a dictionary ... might want to invest in one rather than arbitrarily assigning meaning to words

Ooh, you used a dictionary! What a hero!

Guess what? So did I!

The Penguin Dictionary of Sociology, which has 4 whole small-printed pages on race and racism.

Arbitrarily assign that, arsenugget.

And ffs ... race is a pretty damn vague concept as it is. Here in the states if a guy:

"hates the greasy fucking mexicans",

"despises hispanics",

"can't stand the damn chinks"


or any of the above ... then he's a fucking racist.

Is he? Does he have a reason for his dislike/hate?

And that's according to both the dictionary and to the legal def.

Big hairy fucking deal, I mean, I'm so grateful that you actually got off your fat ex-pat arse and actually opened a book! Hoorah!

But, er, wasn't the argument about whether Jews were a "race" rather than about "racism" per se, my little chowderhead?

And are you deluded enough to believe that the legal definition that pertains in the US also pertains everywhere?

 

[mears]

Does anyone stand for anything around here? No one holds any core beliefs regarding international relations, foreign affairs?

Its very pathetic.

 

[nino_savatte]

Does anyone stand for anything around here? No one holds any core beliefs regarding international relations, foreign affairs?

Its very pathetic.

If you don't like it, mears, you could always fuck off (and I wish you would). As I have told you on more than one occasion: your insistence that we declare our "beliefs" to you on demand, is your attempt to claim the moral high ground by issuing the claim that your belief system is superior.

Au contraire, vous êtes pathetique et vous êtes aussi bête. I speak your weight, Insert coin.

 

[fela fan]

So what do you hold dear? What do you believe in in regards do international relations?

What does anyone around here believe in?

Love peace and respect towards all other humans, and nations. The first is an individual ethos to life, the latter for our leaders.

Unfortunately the US, and UK to a lesser extent, wage a perpetual war in order to get peace. So they tell us. Can you not see the idiocy behind that? Can you not see that if we're all happy we'll have no need of these leaders?

They keep telling us that they have to invade and bomb countries in order to provide peace. War will bring peace!!

I want international relations built around the principle of one world one people, around a perpetual seeking of peace, not war. This can only happen when the peoples find a way to avoid being exposed to the disgusting propaganda that your leaders, and mine, perpetuate through their obliging organ, the mass media.

Peace is what i want, not war after war after war. One world, one people please.