Israel, what have you done?

[TomUS]

Bad luck lebanese, bad luck iraqis, you were born in the wrong piece of land.

I see the Iraq & Lebanon things as completely different. Iraq never denied the US/UK the right to exist or sent suicide bombers to kill their civillians or fired rockets into their cities.

Israel has caused needless suffering & death to innocent Lebanese. Their intent however isn't evil I don't think. They are being attacked on 2 fronts from areas they withdrew from. Their citizens demanded action & their politicians reacted in a clumsey & careless way. But they are fighting a band of thugs that call themselves "the party of god." I have to have sympathy for a country that fights such an organization.

 

[ZAMB]

Their intent however isn't evil I don't think. They are being attacked on 2 fronts from areas they withdrew from. Their citizens demanded action & their politicians reacted in a clumsey & careless way. But they are fighting a band of thugs that call themselves "the party of god." I have to have sympathy for a country that fights such an organization.

I disagree with you about their intent not being evil. The last numbers I saw [didn't see the news tonight] were 750 Lebanese [mostly civilian] against 51 Israelis [mostly soldiers].
As for Gaza

Since Olmert was elected in March, tens of thousands of shells have been fired on Gaza and over 85 men, women and children have died due to non-stop assaults throughout Palestine. Hundreds of others have been maimed for life. To put things in perspective, since the year 2000, the Quassam rockets, which can be compared to high school or college experiments, have been responsible for the deaths of eight (8) Israelis. Since the year 2000, Israeli guided missile assaults have killed several thousand Palestinians. Justifications for this wholesale slaughter – by land, sea and air - have often times focused on the Quassams

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0607/S00091.htm

 

[fela fan]

I see the Iraq & Lebanon things as completely different. Iraq never denied the US/UK the right to exist or sent suicide bombers to kill their civillians or fired rockets into their cities.

Nor did all the lebanese people who no longer have a life.

See, you're looking at iraq and lebanon as nations, as countries.

I'm looking at the people that make up those countries. And i'm looking at the politicians of the aggressor countries, US and Israel, who go on killing rampages that leave huges swathes of unlucky populations destroyed and dead.

I'm looking at the world in terms of peoples defending themselves from those in power. I say solidarity to all peoples of the world, and may we speak out constantly against the aggressions and criminal actions committed by those that we ostensibly call the 'leaders' of our nations.

If we put them on the straight and narrow, then all those pesky 'terrorists' our murderous leaders refer to will cease their activities. They will have no more oxygen to sustain their actions.

Peoples of this world should cease justifying the crimes committed by the likes of US and UK and Israel leaders.

 

[jiggajagga]

Iraq never denied the US/UK the right to exist or sent suicide bombers to kill their civillians or fired rockets into their cities.

Neither did Iraq ,so if thats true it means we went into Iraq on a lie! We were told we were 45 mins from attack and Saddam had WMD which inteded to us on us!
That makes Bush/Blair War criminals just like the Israelis surely?

 

[big footed fred]

Actually, in the eyes of UK law, you have managed to achieve "race" status!

Good so I can repeat this

moono is a racist

 

[Azrael23]

These two peoples have been at conflict on and off for the past 3000 years.

The point is that Israel is trying to escalate violence in order to draw in Iran and Syria. Then they (globalists) have the excuse to really reshape the middle east.

Reshape, is just slang for completely decimate.

It`ll be a nice excuse for world war III though, which will give our rulers amazing bonuses domestically not to mention war profits and eventually a further empowered UN.

 

[poster342002]

Yes. But the German people knew what was going on and did nothing to try to stop it.

They were living in a vicous totalitarian state where the slightest whisper of opposition to the regime could get you sent off to torture and death. You migth as well collectively blame the Russians for Stalin's crimes.

It's easy to say we'd oppose these things from a distance. But how many of us, were we to live under an absolute dictatorship, would have the courage to speak out?

 

[mears]

Iraq would have been a win situation if Saddam hadn`t been put in power by the CIA in the first place. Why is it so difficult to understand that Bush represents a system of power, an oligarchy, he doesn`t set policy!

He`s too busy shagging gay pornstars and prostitutes.

Heres a bit of an idea that not many people think about...

REVOLT.

Do you think Bush is like you? Do you actually think he`s a christian? Whilst he was out in N.California worshipping a demonic owl God barely a week ago? Get with the programme mears, why do you bow to these transgressors?

Just remember you supported the staus quo in Iraq. You were for a pollicy that was supposedly killing tens of thousands of children. Nothing to really be proud about.

Or were you? Did you support the invasion, or the oil for food program or was it partying with Saddam like its 1980?

I supported the invasion. You never quite say what you supported.

 

[mears]

These two peoples have been at conflict on and off for the past 3000 years.

The point is that Israel is trying to escalate violence in order to draw in Iran and Syria. Then they (globalists) have the excuse to really reshape the middle east.

Reshape, is just slang for completely decimate.

It`ll be a nice excuse for world war III though, which will give our rulers amazing bonuses domestically not to mention war profits and eventually a further empowered UN.

Again you support the status quo. And the staus quo in the ME sucks. Poverty, hereditary autocracies banning political parties, no scientific patents or anyother technological breakthroughs.

And you, in all your wisdom, support the status quo.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Actually, in the eyes of UK law, you have managed to achieve "race" status!

I'm going to tell my mate (an Ethiopian Jew) that we're of the same "race". I bet he pisses himself!

 

[Ae589]

And you, in all your wisdom, support the status quo.

American wisdom: The status quo sucks. Any change is better.

Rice agrees with you, well done. Let's speak again when Hezbollah is twice as influential and powerful as now, and has the full backing of the people of Lebanon (which it didn't before, remember?).

 

[detective-boy]

I'm going to tell my mate (an Ethiopian Jew) that we're of the same "race". I bet he pisses himself!

I'm sure he will! It's all a legal tautology, invented to deal with the fact that the anti-racism laws actually didn't include attacks on Jews (one of the more common types of hate crime) because the legislation didn't include religion as well as race. The same principle was applied to Sikhism (but I think there's probably a far closer alignment between religion, culture and race in that case).

 

[angry bob]

Jews are not a race, we're a culture that's partly based around a religion.

Do try and get it right.

So you find it acceptable when someone despises you because of your 'culture'?

What does Jewishness mean to you? Did you choose it?

I'm assuming you're not religious so that implies jewishness by descent perhaps?

And if someone despises a group of people because of thier descent I call that person a racist

 

[moono]

BFF;

Good so I can repeat this

moono is a racist

Fred, you look silly every time you speak without the permission of your Zionist handler.


'Jewish' isn't a 'race'.

 

[jiggajagga]

But how many of us, were we to live under an absolute dictatorship, would have the courage to speak out?

I'll just admit two well known sayings to answer you.

" All it needs for evil to succeed is for good men to stand by and do nothing"

and the very famous:

http://www.telisphere.com/~cearley/sean/camps/first.html

 

[Azrael23]

And you, in all your wisdom, support the status quo.

How can I support any band whose guitarist gets RSI from playing the same three chords?

 

[TomUS]

Neither did Iraq ,so if thats true it means we went into Iraq on a lie! We were told we were 45 mins from attack and Saddam had WMD which inteded to us on us!
That makes Bush/Blair War criminals just like the Israelis surely?

I agree about Bush & Blair.

 

[Wookster]

It would be in this case.

Thats exactly what the fear mongering rascist south africans said.

Now its exactly what the fear mongering rascist israelis are saying.

 

[Wookster]

Its this type of ignorance that makes the world a worse place.

The Nazi party lead a state which started a war that killed 20 million Russians, 1 million poles and 6 million jews to just name a few.

You might despise jews but comparing their actions to Nazi Germany doesn't even come close to adding up. It trivializes the actions of Nazi Germany.

The sad thing is that you are not a 15 year old kid, you were born in 1950!

There is no excuse for your stupidity.

Actually there is no excuse for your stupidity.

the nazi's wanted to establish a greater arayan germany by ethnically cleansing the area of ethnic undesireables. Israel wishes to do exactly the same thing and establish a greater israel. The only difference is the methods. The fundamental ideology is identical.

 

[asdf man]

I agree completely, the unstated goal of this military action is undoubtedly the military takeover of all of Lebanon and the eventual expulsion of all its Muslim inhabitants!

 

[moono]

I agree completely, the unstated goal of this military action is undoubtedly the military takeover of all of Lebanon and the eventual expulsion of all its Muslim inhabitants!

You should stop attending American Christian Zionist meetings.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So you find it acceptable when someone despises you because of your 'culture'?

If someone despises me because of my culture then I'm sad for them, because they're either inarticulate (as I believe Jigga was) or blinkered.
If I find their attitude "unacceptable" then I validate their position. I don't choose to do so.

What does Jewishness mean to you? Did you choose it?

Look at my reply to your original post, the answer to what I see "Jewishness" as is there.

I'm assuming you're not religious so that implies jewishness by descent perhaps?

1) Only a fool makes assumptions when they have no evidence.

2) "Jewishness" is overwhelmingly by descent.

3) You're conflating adherence to Judaism with being part of Jeiwsh culture. That's not necessarily the case.

And if someone despises a group of people because of thier descent I call that person a racist

Then you're either lazy or stupid if there's a better, more accurate word or words to describe such a person.

 

[Belushi]

The Nazi party lead a state which started a war that killed 20 million Russians, 1 million poles and 6 million jews to just name a few.

Around Six Million Poles died in WW2, roughly Three Million Jewish Poles and Three Million Catholic.

 

[poster342002]

" All it needs for evil to succeed is for good men to stand by and do nothing"

I totally agree (and have spent any amount of time arguing this very point on a myriad of injustices I've tried - unsucessfully, usually - to rally opposition to). But the fact is this is a lot easier said than done when you're living under a vicious totalitarian regime with an all-pervasive secret police and network of informers.

 

[mears]

How can I support any band whose guitarist gets RSI from playing the same three chords?

Don't get me wrong, I do not want you have any alternatives. And in fact you don't have any alternatives.

Keep bitching away...

 

[angry bob]

If someone despises me because of my culture then I'm sad for them, because they're either inarticulate (as I believe Jigga was) or blinkered.
If I find their attitude "unacceptable" then I validate their position. I don't choose to do so.

Look at my reply to your original post, the answer to what I see "Jewishness" as is there.

1) Only a fool makes assumptions when they have no evidence.

2) "Jewishness" is overwhelmingly by descent.

3) You're conflating adherence to Judaism with being part of Jeiwsh culture. That's not necessarily the case.

Then you're either lazy or stupid if there's a better, more accurate word or words to describe such a person.

FFS.

Your own UK law defines the word racist to include anti-Jewishness.

What the hell is race anyway?

the dictionary says

"a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock"

So if Jewishness is "overwhelmingly by descent" how is it not a race?

And what word would you use for someone who despises Jews?

If someone were to tell you they "hate arabs" is that person a racist?

And if you call them such do you really need someone to tell you that:

'actually, arab is not a race so your either lazy or stupid for not using the right terminology'

And as to your first point ... where did you get that little gem of wisdom from

 

[pembrokestephen]

Indeed, trashpony.


But do you dispise the british population for arming the israelis?

I despise the British government for doing so.

I despise Tony Blair for being Bush's puppet, and I despise him for refusing to listen not only to the voice of the people, but the voice of his own Cabinet.

I despise him for lacking the moral fibre to take a stand against the US and tell them to get their stinking bombs to Israel by some other route.

But, most of all, I despise him for taking the British population for a bunch of idiots.

 

[pembrokestephen]

There is no excuse for your stupidity.

Whereas your excuse is...?

 

[pembrokestephen]

From Wikipaedia
On January 18, 1943, the first instance of armed resistance occurred when the Germans started the second expulsion of the Jews. The Jewish fighters had some success: the expulsion stopped after four days and the ŻOB and ŻZW resistance organizations took control of the Ghetto, building dozens of fighting posts and operating against Jewish collaborators. During the next three months, all inhabitants of the Ghetto prepared for what they realized would be a final struggle. The final battle started on the eve of Passover, April 19, 1943. Jewish partisans shot and threw grenades at German and allied patrols from alleyways, sewers, house windows, and even burning buildings. The Nazis responded by shelling the houses block by block and rounding up or killing any Jew they could capture. Significant resistance ended on April 23, and the uprising ended on May 16. During the fighting approximately 7,000 of the Jewish partisans were killed and 6,000 were burnt alive or gassed in bunkers. The remaining 50,000 people were sent to German death camps, mostly to Treblinka extermination camp.

Can someone tell me whats the difference between what the Nazi atrocity in Warsaw was and what happened in avillage in Lebanon yesterday?

Maybe on a much smaller scale but same ideology I fear.

I know what you're saying, and I've been taken to task for making the Israel/Nazi comparison, too. While I do believe that it is a) a valid comparison to make, and b) something of a taboo which I instinctively feel needs to be broken, I do also worry that the reaction to such a comparison is so violent as to undermine the purposes in making it.

The bottom line is, whether it's similar to Nazism or not, that Israel is a terror state, and - as you or someone else observed - is in the process of becoming that which it has opposed. Gaza == Warsaw Ghetto. Sabra/Chatila == extermination camps. When you factor the nature of Israeli propaganda into it, the comparisons are even more startling - after all, Hitler's campaign against the Jews was predicated on the idea that they were secretly plotting to undermine Germany, much in the way that Israel now "sees" Hezbollah plotters everywhere, then bombs them, killing large numbers of civilians instead.

I expect I'll be accused of anti-Semitism for saying this - it is, after all, so easy just to throw that loaded label around, with all its Nazi baggage

 

[pembrokestephen]

Again you support the status quo. And the staus quo in the ME sucks. Poverty, hereditary autocracies banning political parties, no scientific patents or anyother technological breakthroughs.

Oh, do fuck off with your all-American "democracy, mom's apple pie and liberty" schtick. It's bollocks.

I've worked in both the US, and the Middle East. Both places have wonderful people who are proud of their country, welcoming to visitors, warm, human, decent people.

Both places have their flaws, and both places have their advantages.

But if you think that the American way is in any way inherently "better" than the Middle Eastern one, then you know fuck-all about one or other of them. There is little democracy in (say) the UAE - but the people are as free there as any American is. Free enterprise is alive, vibrant and well, just as it is in the US. So, for the record, is racism: Arabs are just as racist as the US can be. They hire in migrant labour at ludicrously low wages, but you know what? The migrants are pretty happy to be there earning 5 times what they'd be earning in India, Pakistan, or the Philippines, just as the US's migrants are happy to be working for pittances.

The main difference I noticed is that there is very much less evident poverty in the Middle East (or at least in the UAE, where I spent most time). In the US, being panhandled was a routine occurrence; less so out East.

As for American democracy or justice? Well...your leaders lie, cheat, and steal, and your justice is equal, so long as you have the money to pay for it. Your democratic systems are a parody: tiny unrepresentative groups have a disproportionate influence (eg the religious right), while corporations and anyone rich enough to fund lobbyists can dictate the agenda of government without breaking a sweat. If that's the system you guys want to live under, that's fine, but lay off on the whole forcing it on anyone else you choose to deal, because it isn't THAT fucking good.