Israel, what have you done?

[jiggajagga]

spot the difference

From Hezbollah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha

From Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-24

Just like putting a Yorkie in a cage with a mad Rottweiler and cheering while they fight it out.
Mind you, I think Mears may just enjoy that.
Even John Bolton has just said Israel are over the top!!

Pressure must be mounting in the White house

 

[jiggajagga]

Mears is right, though I hate to admit it. Yes I watched on TV the bodies of children being pulled out of the collapsed cellar in Qana.
Israel cannot and should not be compared to Nazi Germany. For the reasons he outlines.

If this gets out of hand 20,000,000 dead will be a walk in the park. Who's to blame then?

 

[yield]

If this gets out of hand 20,000,000 dead will be a walk in the park. Who's to blame then?

If. When. The people who are responsible.
jiggajagga, I'm not apologising for Israel here please let me make that clear.

I'm not having a go at you but I hope you're equally as concerned about the fate of people in Angola, Sudan, Ethiopia, Colombia, Congo, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Iraq.... the list goes on...

 

[Azrael23]

errrr isn`t "the system" itself to blame?

So technically we all share equal blame for letting criminals dictate to us.

 

[jiggajagga]

If. When. The people who are responsible.
jiggajagga, I'm not apologising for Israel here please let me make that clear.

I'm not having a go at you but I hope you're equally as concerned about the fate of people in Angola, Sudan, Ethiopia, Colombia, Congo, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Iraq.... the list goes on...

Thing is Yield, if you look at those countries they are countries that we in the west have raped and pillaged and left them destitute in many instances. So to answer your question Yes, I do think also of these countries and despise our imperalist past.
If we continue to say what Israel is doing is right ( Israel only exists in its present state because we ( the Brits) withdrew from the Palestine Mandate in 1947-8) then we are all going to hell in a handcart.
Israel is showing the same contempt for common humanity that the Nazis showed the Jewish people. I stand by my original post. They are behaving animalistically.

If something is wrong it is wrong.

 

[fishfingerer]

Its this type of ignorance that makes the world a worse place.

The Nazi party lead a state which started a war that killed 20 million Russians, 1 million poles and 6 million jews to just name a few.

You might despise jews but comparing their actions to Nazi Germany doesn't even come close to adding up. It trivializes the actions of Nazi Germany.

The sad thing is that you are not a 15 year old kid, you were born in 1950!

There is no excuse for your stupidity.

If I could be bothered searching your old posts, would I find something along the lines of "Saddam is the next Hitler" and stuff about "appeasers" anywhere?

 

[yield]

Thing is Yield, if you look at those countries they are countries that we in the west have raped and pillaged and left them destitute in many instances. So to answer your question Yes, I do think also of these countries and despise our imperalist past.
If we continue to say what Israel is doing is right ( Israel only exists in its present state because we ( the Brits) withdrew from the Palestine Mandate in 1947-8) then we are all going to hell in a handcart.
Israel is showing the same contempt for common humanity that the Nazis showed the Jewish people. I stand by my original post. They are behaving animalistically.

If something is wrong it is wrong.

I too am ashamed of Britain's Imperialist past.

As Mears said though (once again I'm not getting any pleasure out of agreeing with him) any direct comparison of Israel with Nazi Germany and the systematic slaughter of millions trivializes their actions.

There is always a danger of becoming what you hate. Israel, in my opinion, is a long way down that path.

 

[mauvais]

Why? Frankly I'm not sure enough to really argue against you but it seems to be a claim that "oh they're not the Nazis, they've only been doing it for a week or so". I suppose it depends if you take 'nazi' to be more of a noun than an adjective.

To me it's about intentions, attitudes, the lies and excuses in them for doing terrible things, the politics and justifications, the rhetoric, the smug disregard for the rest of the world and the complete lack of value in human life. To me, on that basis, I can be content in drawing that parallel.

 

[bluestreak]

fuck israel and the zionists. this whole thing is about provoking the US, britain, iran and syria into a greater war to cement the position of israel in the middle east. they have no morality and no legitimacy. hell, at this stage of the game they're playing right into the hands of the anti-semetic idiots who can't or won't differentiate between israel/zionism and jews in general.

 

[mears]

And all this from a guy who thinks GW Bush is GOD!!
Do you not think that if Israel thought it could take out every Arab in the Middle East if they could get away with it they wouldn't do it?
Come on Mears, they are war-mongering cunts, just like the Nazis, Brits and Americans.

That is not true. There are plenty of things I disagree with Bush about including abortion and government spending. I have made this clear many times.

You need to explore. There is Chechnya, Sudan and Rwanda for instance. The atrocities in these areas make whats happening right now in Lebanon look like a garden party.

The actions by participants in these conflicts are much worse than Israeli F16's, Hezzbollah or Palestinian suicide bombers.

You might make the case that the civil war in Sudan was (or is) comparable to the carnage on the eastern front in 1941. You can't make that case in the current middle east conflict.

Maybe you just find history a bore, or don't feel the need to educate yourself on the wars of attrition in Africa.

But when you compare the Israelis to Nazis you show your poor education on many fronts. You should educate yourself or just be quiet.

 

[mears]

If I could be bothered searching your old posts, would I find something along the lines of "Saddam is the next Hitler" and stuff about "appeasers" anywhere?

Start your search.

 

[fela fan]

People are too busy working hard or shopping or in front of the telly or too comfortable.

Were compassion, respect for the sanctity of human life, empathy, and moralness the order of the day, then leaders like bush and blair and this new israel chap would be called up for their crimes.

Instead they continue their crooked ways, and they continue to see people as pawns in their power games.

It's about time the british and american and israeli populations, as a whole, found a bit of compassion for the people who their politicians are ordering to be massacred. They hide behind their disgusting spun-out rhetoric and the populations of these three countries don't pull them out of their hiding places.

These three countries are the grandest aggressors of peoples foreign to their own states. The damage they do to humanity can only occur through their own amorality.

I therefore conclude that, as a whole, british and american and israeli people are amoral too. See what too much democracy and capitalism can do to its people - lethargic and don't care.

 

[fishfingerer]

Start your search.

So you only want to talk about Iraq, of course. No invasion and Saddam is still in power. No invasion and the sanctions would still be in place. Saddam flaunting the incompetence of the United Nations. George Bush just like Neville Chamberlin.

Doh.

 

[mears]

Doh.

Exactly, but that is not a comparison to Hitler.

It would be the script if George Bush didn't go into Iraq. George Bush the appeaser, sanctions killings tens of thousands etc..

The point is Iraq was a no win situation, either way Bush would be criticized by those who never offer their own ideas in the first place.

 

[Azrael23]

Iraq would have been a win situation if Saddam hadn`t been put in power by the CIA in the first place. Why is it so difficult to understand that Bush represents a system of power, an oligarchy, he doesn`t set policy!

He`s too busy shagging gay pornstars and prostitutes.

Heres a bit of an idea that not many people think about...

REVOLT.

Do you think Bush is like you? Do you actually think he`s a christian? Whilst he was out in N.California worshipping a demonic owl God barely a week ago? Get with the programme mears, why do you bow to these transgressors?

 

[angry bob]

I now despise the Jewish people.

well done on becoming a racist

 

[Streathamite]

Why? Frankly I'm not sure enough to really argue against you but it seems to be a claim that "oh they're not the Nazis, they've only been doing it for a week or so". I suppose it depends if you take 'nazi' to be more of a noun than an adjective.

To me it's about intentions, attitudes, the lies and excuses in them for doing terrible things, the politics and justifications, the rhetoric, the smug disregard for the rest of the world and the complete lack of value in human life. To me, on that basis, I can be content in drawing that parallel.

excellent post.
israel CAN'T be compared like-for-like with the Nazis. The israelis are engaged in a struggle which comes from knowingt that every other m/east country hates her. They may have good reason to, but that ain't the point. The nazis were engaged on an imperialist ideological struggle. I am disgusted with the actions of Israel, and she's moved a fair way down the road to Rogue State status, but they're not nazis yet, and they're not the only ones fighting

 

[ZAMB]

excellent post.
israel CAN'T be compared like-for-like with the Nazis. The israelis are engaged in a struggle which comes from knowingt that every other m/east country hates her. They may have good reason to, but that ain't the point. The nazis were engaged on an imperialist ideological struggle. I am disgusted with the actions of Israel, and she's moved a fair way down the road to Rogue State status, but they're not nazis yet, and they're not the only ones fighting

Well, if you don't want to compare them to nazis [though there are definite similarities IMO] how about apartheid South Africa. To quote an Israeli journalist

AMIRA HASS: An apartheid-like system is when we are talking about two peoples who live in the same territory, between the sea and the river, the Mediterranean and the River of Jordan, two peoples. And there are two sets of laws which apply to each separate people. There are two -- there are privileges and rights for the one people, for the Israeli people, and mostly for the Jews among -- within -- of the Israeli people, and there are restrictions and decrees and military laws which apply to the other people, to the Palestinians. The Palestinians, as a people, are divided into subgroups, something which is reminiscent also of South Africa under apartheid rule. You have the Palestinians, the Israeli Palestinians who are citizens, but -- of Israel, but seventh-rate citizens. You have the Palestinians of Gaza, and you have the Palestinians of the West Bank, and now you have Palestinians in every different enclave. There are different restrictions and different decrees which apply to these different enclaves. And you have the Jerusalemites, East Jerusalemites. So all these subdivision of the other people, which disconnects them, which fragments them as a people. And then you have one government, which is elected, which actually decides about the future of both peoples, the scope of development of both peoples, but it is being elected only by one people. For me, this is a form of apartheid, of demographic separation which is meant to improve the conditions and the well-being and the future of one people on the account of the other.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/12/1344230

 

[Azrael23]

People are too busy working hard or shopping or in front of the telly or too comfortable.

Were compassion, respect for the sanctity of human life, empathy, and moralness the order of the day, then leaders like bush and blair and this new israel chap would be called up for their crimes.

Instead they continue their crooked ways, and they continue to see people as pawns in their power games.

It's about time the british and american and israeli populations, as a whole, found a bit of compassion for the people who their politicians are ordering to be massacred. They hide behind their disgusting spun-out rhetoric and the populations of these three countries don't pull them out of their hiding places.

These three countries are the grandest aggressors of peoples foreign to their own states. The damage they do to humanity can only occur through their own amorality.

I therefore conclude that, as a whole, british and american and israeli people are amoral too. See what too much democracy and capitalism can do to its people - lethargic and don't care.

Your right fela

Too much selfishness and people will pay the price. They`ll sit around as we`re all enslaved. Fucking idiots, you have no idea how angry it makes me sometimes.

"we gotta get the terrorists...TV said so....we need to give up liberties for freedom....they hate our democracy..."

 

[Groucho]

... After this latest outrage by...the eyes of many. Do not fall into this trap.

 

[Azrael23]

Its just the same as people who equate the actions of governments with the minds of a countries people.

That mass demo of 1m probably stopped more terrorist acts in the UK than all of the security services put together.

Why?

Because symbols are more powerful than people can imagine.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

. After this latest outrage by the...UOTE] You're Mel Gibson and I claim my $5.

 

[jiggajagga]

From Wikipaedia
On January 18, 1943, the first instance of armed resistance occurred when the Germans started the second expulsion of the Jews. The Jewish fighters had some success: the expulsion stopped after four days and the ŻOB and ŻZW resistance organizations took control of the Ghetto, building dozens of fighting posts and operating against Jewish collaborators. During the next three months, all inhabitants of the Ghetto prepared for what they realized would be a final struggle. The final battle started on the eve of Passover, April 19, 1943. Jewish partisans shot and threw grenades at German and allied patrols from alleyways, sewers, house windows, and even burning buildings. The Nazis responded by shelling the houses block by block and rounding up or killing any Jew they could capture. Significant resistance ended on April 23, and the uprising ended on May 16. During the fighting approximately 7,000 of the Jewish partisans were killed and 6,000 were burnt alive or gassed in bunkers. The remaining 50,000 people were sent to German death camps, mostly to Treblinka extermination camp.

Can someone tell me whats the difference between what the Nazi atrocity in Warsaw was and what happened in avillage in Lebanon yesterday?

Maybe on a much smaller scale but same ideology I fear.

 

[ViolentPanda]

well done on becoming a racist

Jews are not a race, we're a culture that's partly based around a religion.

Do try and get it right.

 

[detective-boy]

Jews are not a race, we're a culture that's partly based around a religion.

Actually, in the eyes of UK law, you have managed to achieve "race" status!

 

[TAE]

The Israeli terror state and the Jewish people should not be regarded as one.

...

Never ever equate a single racial or religious group with a single ideology, especially a murderous and racist ideology. One of Israel's crimes is to validate anti-semitism in the eyes of many. Do not fall into this trap.

Great post !

 

[david dissadent]

From Wikipaedia
On January 18, 1943, the first instance of armed resistance occurred when the Germans started the second expulsion of the Jews. The Jewish fighters had some success: the expulsion stopped after four days and the ŻOB and ŻZW resistance organizations took control of the Ghetto, building dozens of fighting posts and operating against Jewish collaborators. During the next three months, all inhabitants of the Ghetto prepared for what they realized would be a final struggle. The final battle started on the eve of Passover, April 19, 1943. Jewish partisans shot and threw grenades at German and allied patrols from alleyways, sewers, house windows, and even burning buildings. The Nazis responded by shelling the houses block by block and rounding up or killing any Jew they could capture. Significant resistance ended on April 23, and the uprising ended on May 16. During the fighting approximately 7,000 of the Jewish partisans were killed and 6,000 were burnt alive or gassed in bunkers. The remaining 50,000 people were sent to German death camps, mostly to Treblinka extermination camp.

Can someone tell me whats the difference between what the Nazi atrocity in Warsaw was and what happened in avillage in Lebanon yesterday?

Maybe on a much smaller scale but same ideology I fear.

The villagers in the Lebanon were not about to be rounded up to be gassed? All over the world civillians are killed, often by poor targetting. They are not all moraly equivelant to being Nazis.

You think British planes in Iraq have not done similar things over the past 15 years? Are we Nazis?

Take a deep breath friend. The Nazis set out to exterminate everyone who was not an approved race. So far the Israelis are only after land. They are killing for it, but in lebanon it is only about 1000 th the scale of Darfur so far.

Yes the israelis* are comitting war crimes. But no one has set up gas chambers.

edited from 'they' to 'the israelis' for clarity.

 

[denniseagle]

Quite a large proportion of Israelis back the action, according to recent polls.

I did a search yesterday and different sources were giving anything from 65-95% support depending on exactly what question was being asked.

LOL

Any numpty knows that polls are targetted to achieve certain results.
Depending on what question was being asked.
Dear me, is that how they do it ?????

 

[Bernie Gunther]

LOL

Any numpty knows that polls are targetted to achieve certain results.
Depending on what question was being asked.
Dear me, is that how they do it ?????

And your point is?

 

[fela fan]

Comparisons between nazis and the israelis are not a good road to go down. A killer, in whatever shape or form, whether a more brotherly sort of killer or a downright cruel killer, is a taker of human life.

Israel are proven takers of life. They indulge in the massacring and smashing to bits of human life and infrastructure. They kill people, and make life a misery for those that they leave alive.

There seems to be a massively short supply of compassion in the western world these years. A mixture of selfishness, comfort, and apathy rule the populations. There they stand by listening to their criminal leaders (blair, bush, chirac, howard) justifying this murderous assault on a sovereign nation, saying that a 'ceasefire' is not the right course to take.

No, of course not, the right course to take is to continue to smash human lives to bits. Get all that human flesh and bones ripped up, get all that human blood flowing the streets. Wheel in billions of flies to eat their dinner. For, you see, 'terrorists' are there.

And the western populations, in their comfortable possessions-obsessed lives just turn the page, turn their eye.

Bad luck lebanese, bad luck iraqis, you were born in the wrong piece of land.