Israel to declare Gaza 'hostile'

[Detroit City]

oh, forget it...i'm done

 

[Random]

oh, forget it...i'm done

Don't give me false hope.

 

[Spion]

And it saddens me that, in a world where so many examples of military and state actions based on nationalism exist, we should always fall back on the nazis.

So, what examples do you think might have better resonance with an audience concerned with Israel, the jews and events leading up to the nakba?

 

[Random]

So, what examples do you think might have better resonance with an audience concerned with Israel, the jews and events leading up to the nakba?

Ones that place the settler movement in its correct context - as a European colonial phenomenon. There's also the Ottoman and 'turkification' policies,which were similarly unsuccessful, except in the case of Cyprus.

 

[ymu]

Ones that place the settler movement in its correct context - as a European colonial phenomenon. There's also the Ottoman and 'turkification' policies,which were similarly unsuccessful, except in the case of Cyprus.

And Nazi Germany wasn't a European colonial phenomenon, conducted by a people who felt a deep humiliation at their treatment at the hands of Europe?

Holocaust survivors were spat at in the streets of young Israel for having been so weak as to let themselves be victims. Israel is a complete basket-case, and you cannot ignore the impact of WWII on the national psyche. It's fucked up. You can't think about the conflict without understanding the Israeli psyche.

Tommy's Grandmother, by Uri Avnery

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2]S[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ometimes a person "buys his world in one moment," as the ancient Hebrew saying goes. This was done by the Minister of Justice, Yosef ("Tommy") Lapid, when he uttered the words: "This old woman reminds me of my grandmother!"
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This old woman, an inhabitant of the Rafah refugee camp whose house was demolished by the Israeli army, was immortalized by the camera while rummaging through the ruins of her home in a desperate search for her medicines. Two days later, journalists found her at the same place, still looking for her medicines under the debris.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tommy's grandmother perished in the Holocaust. He himself was born in a Hungarian region in the north of Yugoslavia and survived the Holocaust in the Budapest ghetto. When he mentioned "my grandmother", it was quite clear that he meant a victim of the Holocaust.
...
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The influence of the Holocaust on the character of the survivors, their children and children's children, is a complex phenomenon. Once, a high-school principal gave me the compositions written by his pupils, boys and girls, after a visit to Auschwitz. The reactions divided into two groups.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Most of the pupils wrote something like: "After seeing what the Nazis did to the Jews, my conclusion is that the defense of Israel and the Jewish people is the highest commandment, and for this end, everything is permitted."
A minority of the pupils wrote something like: "After seeing what the Nazis did to the Jews, my conclusion is that the Jewish State must be more humane than any other and set an example of how to behave towards minorities, so that this can never happen again."
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It seems that in the heart of Tommy Lapid both these reactions exist side by side. In ordinary times, the first reaction manifests itself in his behavior. But it must be said in his favor that, in a moment of truth, a moment of profound agitation, the second reaction got the upper hand.[/FONT]

 

[moono]

random;

I wouldn't disagree with you. The point is that, as others on this thread have made it clear, the aim of saying zionist=nazi is usually used to say nakhba=jewish holocaust. Which is factually incorrect.

Would you agree that nationalist Zionism is Nazi-esque ? If not, I'll provide a couple of snippets which might change your mind. And you know that I don't quote tabloid tripe.

 

[Random]

Would you agree that nationalist Zionism is Nazi-esque ?

I'm saying that comparisons of the two are frequently inaccurate and anti-semitic. At best it's simply lazy, and buys into the myth of the 'nazi regime as the most evil thing that ever happened.' A myth that's wheeled out regularly by almost every flavour of politician on the planet.

 

[Spion]

I'm saying that comparisons of the two are frequently inaccurate and anti-semitic. At best it's simply lazy, and buys into the myth of the 'nazi regime as the most evil thing that ever happened.' A myth that's wheeled out regularly by almost every flavour of politician on the planet.

No-one has said the 'nazi regime s the most evil thing that ever happened'. You're arguning against straw men now.

In fact, a number of posters have provided examples and sources to illustrate why the nazi-zionist comparison is a good one. The only lazy thing I see here is your inability to provide any argument to back up to your assertions.

And the only anti-semitic comment I have seen is from Detroit City.

 

[invisibleplanet]

I haven't used the word holocaust, although the expulsion of 800,000 Palestinians in 1948 and the killing of 10s of 1,000s could quite easily be described as one.

You didn't, Spion, that is correct. It was that Jewish-conspiracy lunatic Detroit City who brought 'holocaust' into this discussion.

Jews refer to the WWII 'holocaust' as the Shoah and Palestinians refer to the 1948 ethnic cleansing by Zionist militias as the Nabka.

Both these terms mean Catastrophe.

 

[nino_savatte]

what do you mean? The US is a colony of Israel...its just a matter of time before all of us over here start celebrating channukah and eating motzah ball soup

What's wrong with Chanukah and matzo ball soup? I never say "Merry/Happy Xmas" to anyone, I always say "Happy Chanukah".

Oh, Happy New Year btw. It's the year 5768 (a damned sight more accurate than the divvy Julian and Gregorian calendars).

I think you've got it all arse about face, Israel is a colony of the US.

 

[invisibleplanet]

And the only anti-semitic comment I have seen is from Detroit City.

It's not the first time he's paraded his right-wing antisemitic American patriot propaganda in the Middle East forum either.

 

[ymu]

It's not the first time he's paraded his right-wing antisemitic American patriot propaganda in the Middle East forum either.

It's rare that he isn't being a cock on some forum somewhere. I wouldn't let it worry you.

 

[moono]

:Originally Posted by Detroit City
The US is a colony of Israel...its just a matter of time before all of us over here start celebrating channukah and eating motzah ball soup

Now that is just anti-semitic world jewish conspiracy crap

I don't really think that objection to high-level Israeli influence upon American politics is 'anti-Semitic'. I don't read anything 'anti-jewish' per se in what Detroit City says here. 'A colony of Israel' is an exaggeration, but the Israel Lobby has a throat lock on Congress and the Senate which certainly translates itself to anti-Islamism from the White House. It's a valid charge.

 

[Spion]

I don't really think that objection to high-level Israeli influence upon American politics is 'anti-Semitic'. I don't read anything 'anti-jewish' per se in what Detroit City says here. 'A colony of Israel' is an exaggeration, but the Israel Lobby has a throat lock on Congress and the Senate which certainly translates itself to anti-Islamism from the White House. It's a valid charge.

Your charges are valid. But, the suggestion that Israel rules the US and that somehow 'all' the US population will soon be eating jewish food more than just hints at the idea that jews somehow rule the world, and I think we've all heard that one before

 

[ViolentPanda]

oh, the tactics are exactly the same except there are no gas chambers with Zyklon-B....

No, the tactics aren't the same, although the strategy9s) the nationalist Zionists wish to pursue (clearing lebensraum, unburdening "the homeland" of people they don't want, appropriation of property etc) are similar.

 

[ViolentPanda]

what do you mean? The US is a colony of Israel...its just a matter of time before all of us over here start celebrating channukah and eating motzah ball soup

Matzo, scheißekopf.
And the canard about the US being a colony of Israel is laughable. It has the leverage it does on US power relations with the middle east because of its' position as a bulwark against Arabism and it's strategic location, combined with the revolting alliance between Christian and Jewish Zionists.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I wouldn't disagree with you. The point is that, as others on this thread have made it clear, the aim of saying zionist=nazi is usually used to say nakhba=jewish holocaust. Which is factually incorrect.

And it saddens me that, in a world where so many examples of military and state actions based on nationalism exist, we should always fall back on the nazis. In fact I think there was an internet 'law' coined to deal with this sad state of affairs.

personally I think that the comparison tends to only be inapt in parts, but that people who use the comparison generically tend to focus on the inapt parts, if that makes sense.
For example, they tend to attempt to draw an analogy between concentration camps and the OPTs when any freshman student of history knows that concentration camps concentrated all undesirables, not just people of a particular "racial" heritage. I've also heard Gaza and the West Bank compared to the death camps, although even the nationalist Zionists, for all their contempt and hatred, haven't mounted an equivalent of Aktion Reinhard. They don't tend to focus on the economic similarities, the similarities in the overarching nationalist ideologies or the similarity in in strategic thinking. This, in my opinion is a big mistake, and one that substitutes sloganeering for thought.

 

[ViolentPanda]

oh, forget it...i'm dung

Corrected.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So, what examples do you think might have better resonance with an audience concerned with Israel, the jews and events leading up to the nakba?

The protestant plantation of Ireland, perhaps?

 

[Spion]

The protestant plantation of Ireland, perhaps?

I'll look into it. I can see where you're coming from, tho I'm not sure about the resonance of those events among an audience concerned with israel/palestine

For my money, this Wikipedia account of events in the east during WW2 sounds so similar to the nakba. Only the numbers (tho Palestine lost 1/2 its population) and the reason for deportation differ:

"Belarus lost a quarter of its pre-war population, including practically all its intellectual elite. Following bloody encirclement battles, all of the present-day Belarus territory was occupied by the Germans by the end of August 1941. The Nazis imposed a brutal regime, burning down some 9,000 Belarusian villages, deporting some 380,000 young people for slave labour, and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians more. More than 600 villages like Khatyn were burned with their entire population. More than 209 cities and towns (out of 270 total) were destroyed."

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'll look into it. I can see where you're coming from, tho I'm not sure about the resonance of those events among an audience concerned with israel/palestine

TBH I wouldn't expect it to resonate in the same way, but certain factors are similar: The presence of an English/Anglo-Irish minority, invasion, consolidation, dispossession of the original inhabitants "by hook or crook".

For my money, this Wikipedia account of events in the east during WW2 sounds so similar to the nakba. Only the numbers (tho Palestine lost 1/2 its population) and the reason for deportation differ:

"Belarus lost a quarter of its pre-war population, including practically all its intellectual elite. Following bloody encirclement battles, all of the present-day Belarus territory was occupied by the Germans by the end of August 1941. The Nazis imposed a brutal regime, burning down some 9,000 Belarusian villages, deporting some 380,000 young people for slave labour, and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians more. More than 600 villages like Khatyn were burned with their entire population. More than 209 cities and towns (out of 270 total) were destroyed."

My problem with that is that while some factors are comparable, it's inescapable that Israel, since becoming a nation, hasn't constituted einsatzgruppen to carry out an operation of the ilk of Aktion Reinhard, but rather has used a similar tactic of brutalisation (withholding education, medicines, technology) to that practiced by protestants on Irish Catholics.
I've no doubt that there are those in the ranks of the Zionists (Jewish and Christian) who'd love to progressively liquidate the Muslims that live in the OPTs. Fortunately, such scum haven't (yet) been given free rein.

 

[Spion]

My problem with that is that while some factors are comparable, it's inescapable that Israel, since becoming a nation, hasn't constituted einsatzgruppen to carry out an operation of the ilk of Aktion Reinhard, but rather has used a similar tactic of brutalisation (withholding education, medicines, technology) to that practiced by protestants on Irish Catholics.

Yep, historical analogies always break down at some point. My Belarus example was meant as a parallel to the events of 1948 - a conquering army destroying villages and city quarters, summary execution of men of military age plus atrocities against women, children etc and deportation of the native population.

Israel's actions post-nakba do not fit this mould so well and your Irish example may be more relevant there

E2A: the zionists didn't need einsatzgruppen as such as the IZL, S Gang, Haganah did the cleansing and summary killings when they arrived in villages.

 

[newharper]

Now that is just anti-semitic world jewish conspiracy crap

Maybe he means this;not.

Israel ties loosen

The poll of 1,700 non-Orthodox American Jews found that indicators of attachment to Israel weakened as age decreased. Among the findings:

*Less than half of Jews under 35 (48 percent) agreed that "Israel's destruction would be a personal tragedy." In contrast, 78 percent of Jews over 65 said it would be a personal tragedy.

*54 percent of Jews under 35 are "comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state," compared with 81 percent of those 65 years or over who were comfortable with the idea.

The study found this lack of attachment is unlikely to change even as the younger generations age, marry and have children. "That each age group is less Israel-attached than its elders suggests that we are in the midst of a long-term and ongoing decline," the report states.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-israel_06sep06,1,854545.story?ctrack=2&cset=true

Found this from a link in an article by Tony Karon who is a senior editor at Time magazine

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174836/tony_karon_on_growing_dissent_among_american_jews

Where he also discusses the nazi and South African comparisons.

However he mainly deals with a percieved change in U.S. jewish opinion and the increasingly shrill attacks of the Israeli Lobby.

It undermines the sense, treasured by Israel's most fervent advocates, that they represent a cast-iron consensus among American Jews in particular.

That much has been clear in the response to the publication of John Mearsheimer and Steven Walt's controversial new book The Israeli Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, which challenges the wisdom and morality of the unashamed and absolute bias in U.S. foreign policy towards Israel. In an exchange on the NPR show Fresh Air, Walt was at pains to stress, as in his book, that the Israel Lobby, as he sees it, is not a Jewish lobby, but rather an association of groupings with a right-wing political agenda often at odds with majority American-Jewish opinion,

 

[moono]

Spion;

Your charges are valid. But, the suggestion that Israel rules the US and that somehow 'all' the US population will soon be eating jewish food more than just hints at the idea that jews somehow rule the world, and I think we've all heard that one before

Fair enough, but I'm reading Detroit City as guilty of over-embellishment rather than anti-jewish. Perhaps somebody should ask him to clarify his position.

 

[ymu]

Maybe he means this;not.]

Interesting links, thanks.

This is an interesting article linked to from the Tomgram article.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/30/070730fa_fact_remnick

In this atmosphere of post-traumatic gloom [the disastrous year after the declaration of war on Lebanon, July 2006-2007], Avraham Burg, a former Speaker of the Knesset, managed to inflame the Israeli public (left, right, and center) with little more than an interview in the liberal daily Ha’aretz, promoting his recent book, “Defeating Hitler.”

Short of being Prime Minister, Burg could not be higher in the Zionist establishment. His father was a Cabinet minister for nearly four decades, serving under Prime Ministers from David Ben-Gurion to Shimon Peres. In addition to a decade-long career in the Knesset, including four years as Speaker, Burg had also been leader of the World Zionist Organization and the Jewish Agency for Israel.

And yet he did not obey the commands of pedigree. “Defeating Hitler” and an earlier book, “God Is Back,” are, in combination, a despairing look at the Israeli condition. Burg warns that an increasingly large and ardent sector of Israeli society disdains political democracy. He describes the country in its current state as Holocaust-obsessed, militaristic, xenophobic, and, like Germany in the nineteen-thirties, vulnerable to an extremist minority.

Just the latest in a long string of dissenters, but easily the most influential and sounds like one of the most candid also. Interesting.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Interesting how the influence of a troll like Detroit City leads the discussion into necessarily challenging his antisemitic attitudes, and away from discussing the actual OP. We have now refuted his viewpoint.

Can we please go back to discussing the topic?

 

[ymu]

Interesting how the influence of a troll like Detroit City leads the discussion into necessarily challenging his antisemitic attitudes, and away from discussing the actual OP. We have now refuted his viewpoint.

Can we please go back to discussing the topic?

I read the OP/article and wondered for the umpteenth time if this is when the crazies go too far. There are some serious cracks at the top. It's been widely reported that they're flying reconnaissance missions to do with Iran and they're not being too subtle about it; this will not be a popular war in the US.

I'm just a hopeless optimist of course. However, I do think the crisis is more likely to be resolved by Israel going OTT, mainly because it's more likely that they will do this than bring a reasonable peace offer to the table.

W/E. Israel are threatening to blockade the ghetto. Bleedin' Nazi cants.

 

[moono]

Interesting how the influence of a troll like Detroit City leads the discussion into necessarily challenging his antisemitic attitudes, and away from discussing the actual OP. We have now refuted his viewpoint.

Can we please go back to discussing the topic?

Sure, and I apologise for the deviation. I just wanted people to be aware that, as a victim, I object to the term 'anti-Semitism' being bandied about, misnomer as it is, and that 'victims' deserve a hearing.

 

[Wookster]

Zionist=nazi comparisons are well sad.

Really? How do you figure that one out?

Both the Zionists and the Nazis have a common aim in mind - to cleanse their (expanding) empire of ethnic undesireables. The only difference is the methods in play.

 

[ymu]

Really? How do you figure that one out?

Both the Zionists and the Nazis have a common aim in mind - to cleanse their (expanding) empire of ethnic undesireables. The only difference is the methods in play.

It's those that don't take care to explain the specifics of the comparison that are "well sad". There may be an easily understood underlying point, but casually referring to Zionists as Nazis just makes you look like a teenage moron who heard it somewhere and thought it sounded well radical.

It's also doing absolutely nothing positive for the Palestinian cause. They do not need their de facto supporters in the West getting themselves dismissed as extremist nutters or validating any of the usual avalanche of charges of anti-semitism from Israel. And at a point when millions of moderate Zionists are becoming more willing to listen to criticism, it's fucking stupid to be making lazy offensive comparisons like this. Palestinians understand the Israeli condition very well; many are astonishingly sympathetic and are critical of these sorts of offensive comments.

It's particularly ludicrous to appear to claim that a Final Solution is being carried out when it clearly isn't. Better to point out that there is political support in the Knesset for such a Solution (yes, they call it that) and that Palestinians endure a living death under occupation whilst their land slowly dissolves into Israel.

The pre-1942 similarities to today include the ghettoisation, travel restrictions, intensive unpredictable demands for ID cards, bureaucratic obstacles including to social relationships, starving investment from education and social needs, misappropriation of residential and other property. Aerial bombardment of communities has closer parallels to Turkey's current treatment of the Kurds; the ghettoisation of the West Bank might alternatively be described as bantastanisation and compared to South Africa.

The Nazi analogy is powerful, but hopeless when misused. That's all.