Israel occupying troops shoot unarmed women

[weltweit]

I saw TV footage on ITV news later that night it was also on BBC news with some more footage.

And you are right no one really has the whole story.

Earlier up the thread it was even proposed that the palestinian fighters themselves had shot the women, on purpose.

 

[Dhimmi]

This one is a good example of how you can't really tell a thing from video, it's entitled "Reuters - Palestinians Terrorists use UN Ambulance" but it's impossible to tell what's going on, who's who, or if it's even reuters footage.

 

[weltweit]

I can't see it, I don't do video on this PC


Various posters did do a service by questioning what I thought I saw in the TV footage and earlier up the thread I tried to make an agreeable form of words from what could be deduced .. but no one appears to have agreed !

never mind.

 

[Dhimmi]

Various posters did do a service by questioning what I thought I saw in the TV footage and earlier up the thread I tried to make an agreeable form of words from what could be deduced .. but no one appears to have agreed !
never mind.

Yes I did see that, even basic agreements don't seem to be possible which again is a sad reflection of the conflict. I really wish we could collectively use our distance from the troubles to offer a better perspective.

 

[moono]

weltweit;

Earlier up the thread it was even proposed that the palestinian fighters themselves had shot the women, on purpose

By the same token it was also suggested that the Israeli victim was a victim of IOF fire but you have overlooked that in favour of again referring to some supposed madness amongst Palestinians.

Caution. Propaganda victims are usually unaware of their own condition.


weltweit;

if you ( rachamim ) are describing the video that I watched - that is rubbish - the women were running away from where the shots were fired, there were no weapons and I did see children.

Rubbish indeed, but rachamim is a classic example of the propaganda-soused. He is undergoing treatment here intended to reinforce his grip upon reality.

 

[nino_savatte]

You've recently returned to posting winkies in reply to my posts. It's a pity you can't post anything of substance (but let's face it, you aren't the sharpest tool in the box). You continue to post links without making a comment and, If i am not mistaken, that is a blatant violation of the FAQs. But, as most of us already know, you enjoy patronage and protection. In essence, you are given carte blanche to behave like a complete cunt.

 

[nino_savatte]

And we'll put you into a jewish house in Haifa for the same time period.

Not a very good reply but then, given your obvious racism, this isn't much of a surprise.

Aye, Johnny, I'm calling you a racist.

 

[ZAMB]

i think JC" needs 8 weeks in a gazian house ... personally...

I doubt if he'd last 8 hours. I scanned the article below from the latest 'Witness' which I received today - it is the newsletter for contributors to the charity 'Medical aid for Palestinians' http://www.map-uk.org/

JC an be a selfrighteous git here on U75 - he doesn't have to live in these conditions.

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT
Ordinary Palestinians in Gaza are living in an environment of extraordinary violence, uncertainty and fear. The civilian death toll in Gaza is rising while people's homes and livelihoods are being destroyed. Unable to leave in search of safety, Gazans are, in effect, imprisoned and many feel utterly forgotten.
Incursions, air strikes and artillery shelling are putting Gaza's civilian population under intolerable strain. In violation of international conventions, Israel is employing the tactics of collective punishment. And it's no secret either. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said as much in early July when he publicly confirmed that he had instructed Israel's armed forces to "make sure no one sleeps in Gaza at night."
And Olmert has been true to his word. Throughout the crisis, Israeli air force jets have carried out low*altitude sorties over Gaza causing powerful sonic booms. Sometimes averaging three or four a night, the sole purpose of these sorties is to deny sleep
and to create an enduring sense of anxiety and fear among the civilian population. The impact on children is particularly severe. Panic attacks, sleep disturbances, bed-wetting, loss of appetite and loss of concentration are all commonly reported effects.
Then there is the electricity. Following an Israeli air strike on Gaza's only power plant on 28 June, the entire Gaza Strip has been without electricity for between 12 and 18 hours every day. In soaring temperatures, that has meant no fans, no fridges and no lights. Many shops are using generators to provide power when the electricity fails, but the noise on the streets is deafening and the fumes get into your nose and throat, causing nausea and headaches.
Health services too are suffering. Fuel donations from the international community are partially supporting essential services, such as kidney dialysis machines, in Gaza's hospitals, but the generators have insufficient power and frequently cut out, causing dangerous stoppages in the power supply. Primary health care facilities are also reporting chronic power shortages and a lack of generators. Immunisation services across much of Gaza have already been reduced or suspended because vaccines have spoiled in refrigerators without power.

Water is also in short supply. The Gaza Water Utility is relying on its own backup generators to keep water wells and sewage facilities functioning and daily operations have been cut by two thirds. Most households in the urban areas now have only 2-3 hours of running water per day. This means that families in Gaza have insufficient water to wash clothes or dishes, to flush toilets or to bathe regularly. With the breakdown of the sewerage system, 60,000 cubic metres of raw sewage are being pumped into the sea each day. By early July there had already been a 160% increase in cases of diarrhoea compared with the same time last year.
And with no fuel, the municipal authorities cannot maintain regular services such as rubbish collection. Bags of rubbish are piling up on the streets, attracting children from the most needy families who pick through the litter looking for anything they can use or sell. Key roads and bridges have been destroyed in Israeli air strikes and movement around Gaza has become a nightmare.
July was the deadliest month in Gaza for nearly two years. The continuing violence is having a devastating impact on civilians and the civilian infrastructure and there is no end in sight. According to one UN official, "The Palestinians are struggling to survive; their preoccupation is security, water, food and electricity. It doesn't get any more basic than that."
Sources. UN OCHA, BBC, B'Tselem, Independent, Guardian

 

[weltweit]

I doubt if he'd last 8 hours. I scanned the article below from the latest 'Witness' which I received today - it is the newsletter for contributors to the charity 'Medical aid for Palestinians' http://www.map-uk.org/

JC an be a selfrighteous git here on U75 - he doesn't have to live in these conditions.

Thanks for the text ZAMB - some idea to living conditions in Gaza.

Sounds pretty awful.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You've recently returned to posting winkies in reply to my posts. It's a pity you can't post anything of substance (but let's face it, you aren't the sharpest tool in the box). You continue to post links without making a comment and, If i am not mistaken, that is a blatant violation of the FAQs. But, as most of us already know, you enjoy patronage and protection. In essence, you are given carte blanche to behave like a complete cunt.

You and I were asked to ignore one another.

I was not paying attention to any of your posts, but you seemed unable not to prattle bullshit in response to mine.

Since the rules seem to be off, I'll return to giving the product of your brain, the only response it deserves

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Not a very good reply but then, given your obvious racism, this isn't much of a surprise.

Aye, Johnny, I'm calling you a racist.

Who cares?

In my opinion, you're psychotic.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I doubt if he'd last 8 hours. I scanned the article below from the latest 'Witness' which I received today - it is the newsletter for contributors to the charity 'Medical aid for Palestinians' http://www.map-uk.org/

JC an be a selfrighteous git here on U75 - he doesn't have to live in these conditions.

Do you condone armed men using unarmed women as human shields, in any circumstance?

 

[rachamim18]

Weltweit: NOONE proposed the terrorists had shot the women themselves. WHAT I SAID was that is was a possibility, and it is.


Moono: I get my therapy everytime I lace up my nice red boots, tighten my scope, and get spat at.


Zamb: Sorry, your article is propaganda nonsense. I do not see the strip malls mentioned there, the teen discos, and a hell of alot other stuff that gets ignored for a picture of misery and despair that just does not exist for the most part, despite the best efforts of terrorrsts whom you regularly laud.

 

[weltweit]

Zamb: Sorry, your article is propaganda nonsense. I do not see the strip malls mentioned there, the teen discos, and a hell of alot other stuff that gets ignored for a picture of misery and despair that just does not exist for the most part, despite the best efforts of terrorrsts whom you regularly laud.

Well rachamim18 I do often think that the only way to know what is going on in a far off distant country is to go there yourself, perhaps I will one day get to Gaza and see what is real.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well rachamim18 I do often think that the only way to know what is going on in a far off distant country is to go there yourself, perhaps I will one day get to Gaza and see what is real.

Sounds like rachamim is already there.

 

[ZAMB]

Well rachamim18 I do often think that the only way to know what is going on in a far off distant country is to go there yourself, perhaps I will one day get to Gaza and see what is real.

Really brave of Rach. to call my post 'propaganda nonsense' when the facts in it are reported by even israeli reporters and human rights organisations. Also, he should know by now that his posts are blocked on my computer and thus can only find out by accident that he's calling me a liar. I have friends living in Gaza and I'd believe them before I'd believe him. He is the propagandist here - for Israel.

 

[weltweit]

Sounds like rachamim is already there.

Yes but it appears he only goes there with a gun and is spat at.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[ZAMB]

Yes but it appears he only goes there with a gun and is spat at.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Which begs the question - do you believe the oppressor when he says no-one is being oppressed? Taking Rach's word for what's going on in the occupied territories is a bit like taking Bush's word about the situation in Iraq.

IMHO, of course.

 

[weltweit]

Which begs the question - do you believe the oppressor when he says no-one is being oppressed? Taking Rach's word for what's going on in the occupied territories is a bit like taking Bush's word about the situation in Iraq.

IMHO, of course.

I am presently unable to go there myself and I do trust my own eyes and senses more than anything else.

So I always get information from others, often who have gone and seen but who see though the prisms of their own agendas and that means everything is propaganda whoever it comes from.

What is absolutely certain is there is a dispute and a conflict and the parties to it seem unable to resolve it by themselves.

Which begs the question if they do actually want peace or not.

 

[ZAMB]

What is absolutely certain is there is a dispute and a conflict and the parties to it seem unable to resolve it by themselves.

Which begs the question if they do actually want peace or not.

Israel wants peace only on its own terms, which would deny the basic human rights of the Palestinian people. Every peace process so far, brokered by the US, has been one which would further that objective. Israel's desire for real peace can be judged by the recent appointment of a fascist deputy prime minister.

In addition to espousing ethnic cleansing, Lieberman has a long history of inciting discrimination, hatred and violence against Palestinians within the Jewish state and living under Israeli military occupation in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza Strip. When he served as minister of transport in a previous government, Lieberman called for all Palestinian prisoners held by the Israeli occupation authorities to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses ("Lieberman blasted for suggesting drowning Palestinian prisoners," Ha'aretz, July 11, 2002). He has proposed to strip the citizenship of, and expel any Palestinian citizen of Israel who refuses to sign a loyalty oath to the Jewish Zionist state ("A Jewish demographic state," Ha'aretz, June 28, 2002).

In 2002, Lieberman declared, "I would not hesitate to send the Israeli army into all of Area A [the area of the West Bank ostensibly under Palestinian Authority control] for 48 hours. Destroy the foundation of all the authority's military infrastructure, all of the police buildings, the arsenals, all the posts of the security forces... not leave one stone on another. Destroy everything." He also suggested to the Israeli cabinet that the air force systematically bomb all the commercial centers, gas stations and banks in the occupied territories (The Independent, March 7, 2002). And, he has proposed bombing Egypt's Aswan Dam, despite that country's peace treaty with Israel since 1979. What will he propose to do to Iran?
http://www.palestinecampaign.org/features.asp?d=y&ID=626

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Israel wants peace only on its own terms, .

Don't the palestinians want peace on their terms?

 

[ZAMB]

http://electronicIntifada.net/v2/article5923.shtml

Recent UN report on Palestine, for those who want to deny the conditions there.

Living conditions in Gaza have plummeted due in part to increased violence and unrelenting armed conflict with Israel, which carried out over 292 air strikes between July and October, leaving 298 dead and 1,000 injured. New surveys showed 87 per cent of residents living below the poverty line, and severe movement restrictions have caused unprecedented levels of unemployment, with 80 per cent of residents depending on UNRWA food aid.

Land expropriations, settler violence, daily military incursions and Israel's separation barrier have caused similarly severe and deplorable hardships in the West Bank, where 56 per cent of residents live below the poverty line, the report stated.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

ZAMB, you never did say: do you consider it allowable in any circumstance to use unarmed women as human shields?

 

[weltweit]

JC2 I think you will find that in war there are actually no rules.

Afterwards, whoever wins makes their own rules and judges others thusly.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

JC2 I think you will find that in war there are actually no rules.
.

There are always some rules. I think you'll find that most people woudn't put an unarmed woman in between themselves and the path of a bullet.

And as I've said before, it's not just war, it's life or death situations.

Do you also have sympathy for bank robbers who use innocent bystanders as human shields? Will you cut them the same slack?

 

[weltweit]

Human shields are rather difficult issues when you are fighting in civilian areas, a lot was made about hizbolla fighters being in with the population in Lebanon causing the civilians there to be human shields, where else would you expect them to live though apart from with their families, thats where I live and I expect where you live also.

[all imho of course] The women and children in this case did not expect to be fired on, otherwise they would not have been there, they were there to distract the IDF and yes to provide a human shield also so that the Palestinian fighters could make their escape.

I do not agree with putting children in harms way in any circumstances but women I am not so sure about, in Great Britain there has been a feminist movement which was all about equality and women now serve in the military also .. that being the case why should women be excused risk when their country is at war?

And no there are NO RULES in war.

The winner makes the rules.

It has always been that way.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

[all imho of course] The women and children in this case did not expect to be fired on, otherwise they would not have been there, they were there to distract the IDF and yes to provide a human shield also so that the Palestinian fighters could make their escape. .

I don't understand.

They didn't expect to be fired upon, but they were interposing themselves between armed israeli troops, and the armed palestinian men whom the soldiers were after?

You mean, it didn't cross their minds that the israelis wouldn't just let them walk out of there?

You guys consider the israeli army to be only a couple of steps removed from demons; surely the palestinians are as aware of the nature of the israeli army, as you are?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

but women I am not so sure about, in Great Britain there has been a feminist movement which was all about equality and women now serve in the military also .. that being the case why should women be excused risk when their country is at war?

But.......... if the women are in the army, they'll have guns, just like the men. They'll be soldiers too.

That's a little different from getting unarmed women off the street, and sticking them in the middle of a gunfight, don't you think?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think highly enough of U75 posters to think that most if not all readers of this thread, would find the idea of using unarmed women as human shields, to be distasteful, if not downright abhorrent.

I think you just won't say as much, because it involves the palestinian issue.

At least, I hope I'm right.

 

[weltweit]

You guys consider the israeli army to be only a couple of steps removed from demons; surely the palestinians are as aware of the nature of the israeli army, as you are?

Actually I do not consider the IDF to be like that, the IDF is in as tricky a position often as the palestinians, I don't think the average person on either side of this conflict is a demon at all they are probably quite normal humans.

You can tell this by the small [smallish] size of the conflict, most of the populations of both sides are trying to carry on their lives diplomatically non violently and trying to do their best to look after their family friends and neighbours.

It is a minority on both sides that are actually fighting, that does not mean that they do not receive popular support from their populations but these disputes and this conflict is not at the level of "total war".

What I find cause for concern is that there appears to be no real attempt to find a fair and lasting peace.