Israel occupying troops shoot unarmed women

[Johnny Canuck3]

The kind of scumbags who have no other way of defending themselves maybe? JC2, you make my blood boil with this sort of inflammatory nonsense. Fat cat organisers...ffs, this isn't some fuckin hollywood drama played out for your pop-corn-headed consumption, its desperate people in desperate situations.

How do you defend yourself against enriched unranium ammunition like the Israelis use then? How do you defend yourself against having your home bulldozed and your relatives shot and imprisoned, on the basis of complete summary justice? I would have some sympathy for Israeli actions if they bore any mark of proportionality. Previous sins don't atone for present actions, in my book.

One thing you don't do, is bring out your wife and child, hide behind their backs, point your gun out at the enemy, and then cry when your kid gets shot.

No matter who or what the israelis are or do, there is no honour in hiding behind unarmed women and children. IMO, if they, the palestinians, have a just cause, then it's better to die with honour and dignity for your cause, than it is to dirty your cause by hiding behind women and children.

I'm sure your blood is boiling, thanks to the confusion you must feel watching those you call freedom fighters fighting for justice, using women and children as human shields.

...................

As for the fat cat organizers comment, I bet that those who train and pay for suicide bombers, never send their own children and wives out to blow themselves up.

Saddam used to offer money to the families of palestinian suicide bombers; the ultimate foreign fat cat, sending money with no personal risk.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There is of course another possibility.

If you consider women to be chattels, possessions, not equal to men, then maybe there isn't as much shame in hiding behind them while you fight. They would then be, after all, just another tool to be used to achieve the goals of men.

 

[Dhimmi]

I saw this footage two nights ago, it's not clear who did the shooting regardless of what the reporter said.
There's a great danger in accepting media reports uncritically, especially just because they support your viewpoint.

 

[moono]

Dhimmi;

I saw this footage two nights ago, it's not clear who did the shooting regardless of what the reporter said.
There's a great danger in accepting media reports uncritically, especially just because they support your viewpoint.

You're quite right. Let's be critical.

Among the dead in Beit Hanoun was a girl aged 12, shot in the head by an Israeli sniper on Saturday. On Friday two volunteer paramedics with the Palestinian ambulance service, both 17, were killed in nearby Beit Lahiya. A crowd of around 100 paramedics marched through Gaza City yesterday to protest against the deaths.

In the past four months more than 350 Palestinians have died. One Israeli soldier has been killed in the offensive, and one seriously injured.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1940396,00.html

Was that Israeli shot by his own side, you think ?

 

[tangentlama]

We should stop for a moment and ask ourselves why certain shortsighted Politicians have no concern to safeguard the rights of Palestinians and Israelis now and those yet to come?

Olmert recently called all the Palestinian dead 'terrorists'.
B'tselem, the Israeli Information Centre for Human Rights in Occupied Territories said of him:

On October 30, Israel 's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert reportedly told the Knesset Security and Foreign Affairs Committee that in the past three months, the Israeli military has killed 300 "terrorists" in the Gaza Strip in its war against terror groups.

According to B'Tselem's investigation, the IDF did indeed kill 294 Palestinians in Gaza since the abduction of Cpl. Gilad Shalit on June 26 and until October 27. However, over half of those killed – 155 people, including 61 children – did not participate in the fighting when they were killed. This in addition to the 137 who were killed while taking part in hostilities, and another two who were the targets of a targeted killing.
http://www.btselem.org/english/firearms/20061102_Who_is_a_Terrorist.asp

 

[mod]

First off, the footage did not show the trajectory of a bullet. Bullets were flying from all sides and no autopsies, forensics, or investigation of any kind was done to ascertain the source of the bullets.

It is also a fact that you totally ignore the reason why the IDF is there in the first place. Israel cedes the land to the PA more than a year ago, removes all Israeli presence except for a 2 billion [US] dollar agricultural hothouse complex [which they managed to totally destroy in less than 60 days], and in turn Israel receives a daily bombardment of killer rockets and other acts of terrorism directed towards civilians. Israel should just sit back and allow it to happen? Or are you of the type that say Israel has no right to exist? Unless that is your rationale, you make no sense.

Just one of many, many atrocities Israel will continue to commit unabated. A truly evil, truculent state.

 

[nino_savatte]

There is of course another possibility.

If you consider women to be chattels, possessions, not equal to men, then maybe there isn't as much shame in hiding behind them while you fight. They would then be, after all, just another tool to be used to achieve the goals of men.

Curiously enough, there are adherents of other religions who view women in the same way and that includes Xtians. You seem to forget that we live in a patriarchical society...or perhaps you think that only applies to Islam?

 

[nino_savatte]

One thing you don't do, is bring out your wife and child, hide behind their backs, point your gun out at the enemy, and then cry when your kid gets shot.

No matter who or what the israelis are or do, there is no honour in hiding behind unarmed women and children. IMO, if they, the palestinians, have a just cause, then it's better to die with honour and dignity for your cause, than it is to dirty your cause by hiding behind women and children.

I'm sure your blood is boiling, thanks to the confusion you must feel watching those you call freedom fighters fighting for justice, using women and children as human shields.

...................

As for the fat cat organizers comment, I bet that those who train and pay for suicide bombers, never send their own children and wives out to blow themselves up.

Saddam used to offer money to the families of palestinian suicide bombers; the ultimate foreign fat cat, sending money with no personal risk.

Not much of a reply this...is it? This reply is designed to wind up the other poster...something that you do rather well (some folk think that it's wit but I could think of another word that rhymes which sums it up much better) Once again, you let rip with your ignorance and cultural relativism.

Nice narrative too.

 

[weltweit]

As for the fat cat organizers comment, I bet that those who train and pay for suicide bombers, never send their own children and wives out to blow themselves up.

Your argument applies just as well to the USA/UK Bush has not served his country in the forces neither has Blair and in the UK I do not know of a single politician whose children are in the forces. There must be one or two I am sure but I am unaware of them.

The royal family however are rather different having quite a few in the forces including during wartime.

Yes those who motivate suicide bombers do not do the deed themselves but I cannot think of any civilian leader who has given their own lives in conflict, military leaders sometimes do but never politicians.

 

[tangentlama]

Your argument applies just as well to the USA/UK Bush has not served his country in the forces neither has Blair and in the UK I do not know of a single politician whose children are in the forces. There must be one or two I am sure but I am unaware of them.

The royal family however are rather different having quite a few in the forces including during wartime.

Yes those who motivate suicide bombers do not do the deed themselves but I cannot think of any civilian leader who has given their own lives in conflict, military leaders sometimes do but never politicians.

Binyamin Netanyahu's nephew IS A REFUSENIK.
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/02/28/refuseniks/index.html?pn=2

 

[weltweit]

Binyamin Netanyahu's nephew IS A REFUSENIK.
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/02/28/refuseniks/index.html?pn=2

Good article thanks for the link.

"Verdun has sort of a mild New England landscape with rolling hills," Matania says. "It's the ultimate in serenity, and then you see stretching to the horizon tens of thousands of graves. There's a huge structure overlooking the valley that houses the unidentified remains of 150,000 soldiers. Yoni says this was an emotional shock for him, and it started him on a conscientious understanding of the evils of war."

What was that quote, those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

War war is the failure of jaw jaw .. our political leaders have the responsibility to jaw jaw until their teeth fall out because war war only ocurrs when they have failed in their duty to exert that diplomacy is the primary method of dispute resolution.

 

[Bigdavalad]

I do not know of a single politician whose children are in the forces. There must be one or two I am sure but I am unaware of them.

A few Conservatives are ex/serving military (one of them is an officer in the TA Royal Engineers and spent the summer recess serving in Afghanistan. Don't know about Labour or Liberal (although I'll be surprised if there's as many as there is in the Tories).

We might see a large reduction in the places we're expected to go and risk our lives if Euan Blair was being asked to do the same thing though.

 

[Jonti]

Not much of a reply this...is it? This reply is designed to wind up the other poster...something that you do rather well (some folk think that it's wit but I could think of another word that rhymes which sums it up much better) Once again, you let rip with your ignorance and cultural relativism.

Nice narrative too.

What's missing from JC2's woefully (willfully?) ignorant narrative is the story of the slow motion Warsaw ghetto that is 21st Century Gaza. There, a million and more Palestinians are in the world's largest open air prison. The Israeli state controls the entrances and exits, the airspace and coastline. The folks herded within the prison camp of the Gaza strip are subject to arbitrary murder by their jailers. Those jailers feel free to let rip with American manufactured and supplied high tech ordinance pretty much any time they want. And oh! how they want to kill. The increasingly barbaric and depraved Israeli "soldiers" randomly murder folk on the beach, in their homes, work places and cars.

A people being strangled to death will naturally fight back by any means necessary. The Zionist killers and their fatcat backers like JC2 have no such excuse.

 

[weltweit]

We might see a large reduction in the places we're expected to go and risk our lives if Euan Blair was being asked to do the same thing though.

Hi Bigdavalad

Yes this is my belief also, if a leader was required to risk their own children father sister brother etc or even themselves I think they would make rather more strenuous efforts to achieve or maintain peace.

I had an awful moment recently which left me very confused when I suddenly realised just how easy it is to create a suicide bomber, someone who is prepared to give their lives .. and here is me thinking life is so precious .. I may post it now here despite that it is probably off topic.

 

[weltweit]

ok here goes ..

How easy it is to make a suicide bomber

Tell me if this is too off topic and I will delete it.

I was walking with a European child of 7 years old, we approached a road and he started to walk confidently out into the road without looking while cars were coming.

I grabbed him.

I asked:

What would happen if you walked out into the road without looking?

Him: I would be killed.

Me: but you just started to do that, to walk out into the road without looking!

Me: what do you think it means to be killed?

Him: to be killed means I will go and live up there in heaven with grandpa and Chloe (Chloe is his cat that had died recently and was buried in his garden and his grandpa also died recently)

I am a little lost for words at this point, the child knew if it walks into the road without looking it may, no will, be killed yet it happily does try to walk into the road without looking and it also thinks it knows what to be killed or to die means and it is not at all afraid of either of them.

Perhaps I am just expecting too much from a seven year old European boy to be able to learn to negotiate a road safely.

The concept of living in heaven with people and pets that have already gone there is not an unattractive proposition to this boy.

It is easy to see how the offer of lots of virgins could make heaven quite attractive to someone a little older who is perhaps living in a poor situation in Palestine.

And that is all you need to motivate a suicide bomber, hatred of an enemy, willingness to kill that enemy and a reduced or absent fear of death gained by promoting what comes afterwards (heaven or whatever) as an attractive proposition.

No political leaders ever themselves commit suicide in the way that Palestinian youths do against Israeli civilian targets, leaders simply persuade others to die for their cause.

The Palestinian suicide bombers that have been persuaded to give up their lives for the conflict, it seems to me are just as much victims of the war as the Israeli civilians they kill.

Perhaps this is blindingly obvious to you lot sorry if it is a wasted post but it was THAT MOMENT standing on the side of a road in Europe after having grabbed this child back from the busy road that I first started to understand just how easy it would be to motivate a suicide bomber.

On a better note, to conclude about the European boy.

I was at first lost for words and we went to the child’s home where I spoke about my concerns with its mother, we discussed it a bit.

We did not want to terrify the child about death because in truth we know it is nothing to be scared of, but we wanted it to learn some respect for danger on the roads where in truth not only death but the risk of serious injury and lots of pain are probably as important.

Later back walking to cross the same road.

Me: remember what you said would happen if you walk into the road without looking?

Him: I would be killed.

Me: and what does that mean?

Him: I will go and live in heaven with Grandpa and Chloe.

Me: OK - RIGHT - do you want to go and live in heaven with Grandpa and Chloe NOW?

Him: NO

Me: [considerable relief] great because I am sure your mother and father want you to live with them for a long time more yet.

Phew

Sorry if this post is not right for this thread.
tell me if it is too OT, i will delete it.

 

[nino_savatte]

What's missing from JC2's woefully (willfully?) ignorant narrative is the story of the slow motion Warsaw ghetto that is 21st Century Gaza. There, a million and more Palestinians are in the world's largest open air prison. The Israeli state controls the entrances and exits, the airspace and coastline. The folks herded within the prison camp of the Gaza strip are subject to arbitrary murder by their jailers. Those jailers feel free to let rip with American manufactured and supplied high tech ordinance pretty much any time they want. And oh! how they want to kill. The increasingly barbaric and depraved Israeli "soldiers" randomly murder folk on the beach, in their homes, work places and cars.

A people being strangled to death will naturally fight back by any means necessary. The Zionist killers and their fatcat backers like JC2 have no such excuse.

JC2 doesn't want to understand. To him, it's a simple Manichean choice: one side (Israel...plucky little Israel ) are the good guys and other side is pure evil incarnate.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

i think JC" needs 8 weeks in a gazian house ... personally...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It is easy to see how the offer of lots of virgins could make heaven quite attractive to someone a little older who is perhaps living in a poor situation in Palestine.

erm i think as well intended as this is you need to look again at the document cases of families of sucide bombers in plaesitne nearly all of them have infact been suffering from post tramatic stress of livign in a constant war zone and watchign their famlies and friend be summinarly exicuted, this tends to install a level of thinking which is well if i'm goign to die anyway might as well take some of you with me... it's rarely IME been expressed that the intention has ever been due to religous conviction, however much this may appeal to the radicalised ideal that it's just religious nutjobs who do this ...

 

[weltweit]

erm i think as well intended as this is you need to look again at the document cases of families of sucide bombers in plaesitne nearly all of them have infact been suffering from post tramatic stress of livign in a constant war zone and watchign their famlies and friend be summinarly exicuted, this tends to install a level of thinking which is well if i'm goign to die anyway might as well take some of you with me... it's rarely IME been expressed that the intention has ever been due to religous conviction, however much this may appeal to the radicalised ideal that it's just religious nutjobs who do this ...

Yes I accept what you are saying.

I only wanted to point out that "lack of a fear of death" is part of the equation which I learnt from a 7 year old European kid.

Probably should have just written that but I have "verbosity" my illness

 

[nino_savatte]

i think JC" needs 8 weeks in a gazian house ... personally...

Maybe we could turn it into a reality telly prog. Should make interesting viewing.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yes I accept what you are saying.

I only wanted to point out that "lack of a fear of death" is part of the equation which I learnt from a 7 year old European kid.

Probably should have just written that but I have "verbosity" my illness

i understood the intent i merely felt is was worth highlighting that this viewpoint of the reasons which are claimed consistantly as being the did it in effect for sex with wimmin isn't really the coda.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Maybe we could turn it into a reality telly prog. Should make interesting viewing.

fuck yeah!!!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Not much of a reply this...is it? This reply is designed to wind up the other poster...something that you do rather well (some folk think that it's wit but I could think of another word that rhymes which sums it up much better) Once again, you let rip with your ignorance and cultural relativism.

Nice narrative too.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

What's missing from JC2's woefully (willfully?) ignorant narrative is the story of the slow motion Warsaw ghetto that is 21st Century Gaza. There, a million and more Palestinians are in the world's largest open air prison. The Israeli state controls the entrances and exits, the airspace and coastline. The folks herded within the prison camp of the Gaza strip are subject to arbitrary murder by their jailers. Those jailers feel free to let rip with American manufactured and supplied high tech ordinance pretty much any time they want. And oh! how they want to kill. The increasingly barbaric and depraved Israeli "soldiers" randomly murder folk on the beach, in their homes, work places and cars.

A people being strangled to death will naturally fight back by any means necessary. The Zionist killers and their fatcat backers like JC2 have no such excuse.

I'm sorry, but no matter what, hiding behind your wife and children is not an option.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

JC2 doesn't want to understand. To him, it's a simple Manichean choice: one side (Israel...plucky little Israel ) are the good guys and other side is pure evil incarnate.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

i think JC" needs 8 weeks in a gazian house ... personally...

And we'll put you into a jewish house in Haifa for the same time period.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

i think JC" needs 8 weeks in a gazian house ... personally...

One thing though, even after 8 weeks in a gazian house, I wouldn't use my wife and children as human shields.

 

[rachamim18]

One major thing, not suprisingly, is being ignored here...After circulating text messages that finally made it onto HAMAS Radio, about 4 to 5 dozen women [no report of any kids-sorry] made their way to the mosque in question. Short on Infantry, the IDF employed a D9 to knock down an outer compound wall. This collapsed a part of the mosque ceiling, allowing for some of the women to make themselves inside. Once inside, the brave "Freedom Fighters" donned female gear and presented themselves as innocent women while still like a man's man, gripping their AKs under their burqahs. Now having made their way out to the street in a mixed group, they slowly, as women in this part of the world do, advanced on IDF positions [Armoured and Infantry]. Pulling AKS out and firing on the IDF, they then attempted to use the women who had helped them as shields in an attempt to get away. 2 women WERE fit, but so were 8 men dressed as women. Hmmm...Something to think about, you think?

 

[weltweit]

if you are describing the video that I watched - that is rubbish - the women were running away from where the shots were fired, there were no weapons and I did see children.

 

[Dhimmi]

Was this the video on the TV or a web based one?
Hard to get the whole story from a video I think, especially when we haven't neccessarily all seen the same coverage.

eta found these two;