"Israel must disappear"

[GarfieldLeChat]

Just look at history. Israel has been outnumbered & with it's back to the sea for almost 60 years. It fights to survive, not to have an apartheid state. I disaprove of much of what Israel has done, especially the setlements. But that doesn't negate it's right to exist. The fanatics of Hamas & Hezbollah have no interest in peaceful coegistence. They simply want to slaughter Jews & to turn their kids into human bombs for "god". I hope they will fail for the sake of humanity. US bombs & bullets will continue to help Israel defend itself rom the Islamic psychos. The US & Israeli public are absoutely united on this issue.

more hyperbol bollocks mistruths and outright lies...

spin spin sugar...

One day i hope you meet these terrorists phantoms you fear... i'll laugh...

 

[pk]

Come on Garf at least provide an argument.

 

[moono]

Tom US;

US bombs & bullets will continue to help Israel defend itself rom the Islamic psychos. The US & Israeli public are absoutely united on this issue.

No, they're not.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html


http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Palestine/support.cfm

 

[detective-boy]

I have compassion for everyone involved in this conflict, including the soldiers-even the Hezbollah fighters to some degree because they have been duped into believing they'll go to heaven if they die while killing Jews.

No indication of any bias there then ...

Maybe, just maybe, the Hezbollah fighters believe they have the right to protect their country from invasion and constant attack.

 

[nino_savatte]

I have compassion for everyone involved in this conflict, including the soldiers-even the Hezbollah fighters to some degree because they have been duped into believing they'll go to heaven if they die while killing Jews. I have also noticed a total lack of compassion for the Iisraeli civilians hit by Hezbollah rockets among the anti-Israel folks here. Most seem to feel like their just animals who deserve slaughter.

And I guess you are indeed the King of Tonga because unlike in Europe, most US liberals support Israel.

Most "Liberals" in the US strike me as being a little ignorant of certain facts. I would include you in that category since you, like so many others have bought and swallowed the propaganda whole. Many US liberals aren't really liberals at all. Neo-liberals perhaps. It is easier for you to think in terms of simplistic binaries: Israel = good guys and the Others = bad guys. Add to this the status of victimhood that Israel wears with pride, and they have your unquestioning sympathy, loyalty and devotion.

You are about as liberal as any Republican. The word "liberal" in your case is meaningless. Like so many other Americans, you also conflate world Jewry with the state of Israel.

Your "compassion" for non-Israelis appears to be absent on this thread as you have done nothing but accept the myth of Israeli victimhood as the truth.

Try reading some history instead of disseminating the same lies your so-called ideologicaL enemies do.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Come on Garf at least provide an argument.

what argument can you possibly provide to some one who clearly has access to all the facts figures and impartial reporting and yet still decides that thier viewpoint is right it's like argueing with fanatical christians, whilst the baiting is is some times a fun way to exorcise your own demons, ultimatly it's totally pointless and these convictions aren't borne from a point of view of accurate fact but out of ingrained belief. No logical arguement can be poised to these fanantics they are blind to reason, logic or accuracy...

It challenges them to reevaluate their preconceptions and then make changes as a result, non of which they are willing to do...

 

[TomUS]

No indication of any bias there then ...

Maybe, just maybe, the Hezbollah fighters believe they have the right to protect their country from invasion and constant attack.

They have a strange way of protecting Lebanon. They supported Syria's occupation of it.

 

[newharper]

Tom,

to those of us who don't have to suffer U.S.T.V. this war seems to be an U.S. inspired attack on Lebanon, as a proxy for Syria and Iran.

That Iraq is a shambles, and that this is mid-term year, is I'm afraid grist to our cynisism.

 

[TomUS]

It is easier for you to think in terms of simplistic binaries: Israel = good guys and the Others = bad guys. Add to this the status of victimhood that Israel wears with pride, and they have your unquestioning sympathy, loyalty and devotion.

Your "compassion" for non-Israelis appears to be absent on this thread as you have done nothing but accept the myth of Israeli victimhood as the truth.

I don't think in terms of absolute good guys/bad guys. But I do see that attitude among much of the anti-Israel side. I think if we want peace all sides must accept realities- Israel exists as a Jewish state & will continuue to & needs secure borders, Palestinians need a real country alongside Israel free of IDF checkpoints & with a piece of E Jerusalem for a capital. Most of the WB settlements need to be removed. It's not helpful to demand turning back the clock to the late '40s as many on the anti-Israel side seem to want. Perfect justice for all isn't possible.

 

[ZAMB]

I don't think in terms of absolute good guys/bad guys. But I do see that attitude among much of the anti-Israel side. I think if we want peace all sides must accept realities- Israel exists as a Jewish state & will continuue to & needs secure borders, Palestinians need a real country alongside Israel free of IDF checkpoints & with a piece of E Jerusalem for a capital. Most of the WB settlements need to be removed. It's not helpful to demand turning back the clock to the late '40s as many on the anti-Israel side seem to want. Perfect justice for all isn't possible.

Now that's really big of you!! Surely perfect justice must be what we aspire to - not a one side takes almost all, with no reparations or right of return. What do you mean by 'a piece of East Jerusalem' and 'most of the WB settlements'? Palestine will never have any freedom if you want to go into negotiations having already made up your mind, and with a pre-existing bias towards one side. This is why I think that the US and UK should totally disengage from the process in the UN.

 

[TomUS]

Now that's really big of you!! Surely perfect justice must be what we aspire to - not a one side takes almost all, with no reparations or right of return.

No, SOME justice. Aspiring to perfect justice is to aspire to the impossible which leads nowhere. There is no right of return, just a desire to return, and it's not practical. But some compensation could be part of the package.

What do you mean by 'a piece of East Jerusalem' and 'most of the WB settlements'?

I guess it depends on how E Jerusalem is defined. I'd like to see all of the WB settlements removed, but that doesn't seem possible. The big ones that are suburbs of Jerusalem will be pretty hard to get rid of. Perhaps a land swap could be arranged to compensate the Palestinians for those that remain.

 

[moono]

I'd like to see all of the WB settlements removed, but that doesn't seem possible. The big ones that are suburbs of Jerusalem will be pretty hard to get rid of. Perhaps a land swap could be arranged to compensate the Palestinians for those that remain.

They're only buildings. They can be removed very quickly. Just look at how fast American bombs have removed half of Beirut.

 

[detective-boy]

- Israel exists as a Jewish state & will continuue to & needs secure borders,

Fine.

But a good start would be for Israel to realise:

1. Those borders mark the limit of where they are entitled to take unilateral action and

2. Those borders are fixed, in that they can't unilaterally decide to extend them.

For a country so obsessed with the "security" of their borders they seem to play remarkable fast and loose with the rights of the countries on the other side to have the same "security". This hypocrisy totally undermines their argument that they are always the victim ...

 

[moono]

Any 'border' has people on both sides, both of which require 'security'. Security is not solely the right of Israelis.
Take a look around. Who is attacking who ?

 

[nino_savatte]

I don't think in terms of absolute good guys/bad guys. But I do see that attitude among much of the anti-Israel side. I think if we want peace all sides must accept realities- Israel exists as a Jewish state & will continuue to & needs secure borders, Palestinians need a real country alongside Israel free of IDF checkpoints & with a piece of E Jerusalem for a capital. Most of the WB settlements need to be removed. It's not helpful to demand turning back the clock to the late '40s as many on the anti-Israel side seem to want. Perfect justice for all isn't possible.

You describe yourself as a "liberal" but I am also reminded that the infamous Russian fascist, Vladimir Zhirinovsky, also described himself as a "liberal".

What do you mean by "anti-Israeli"? This your way of demonising those who wish to see Israel's excessive urges curbed. Your recipe for 'peace' is predicated on the belief that Israel is being 'wronged' and needs US assistance to crush any resistance to its hegemony in the occupied territories and Lebanon (and ultimately the Middle East). You have accepted Israeli propaganda as the truth and this comes as no surprise, since any information about this conflict has to, first, pass through a Zionist filter. In other words, you only ever get part of the picture in the US and are quite happy to accept it without question.

 

[iROBOT]

I wish whoever was paying Israel would disappear.

They will...once the oil has gone...what a different world we'd be in then...eh?

Give it 30 years and the USA will drop Israel right in it.

 

[Spion]

They will...once the oil has gone...what a different world we'd be in then...eh?

Give it 30 years and the USA will drop Israel right in it.

Quite. I can't see Israel having a long term future.

 

[Wookster]

Quite. I can't see Israel having a long term future.

Thats not an entirely bad thing.

I would like to see one secular state where everyone has equal rights. None of this violent ethnic nationalism nonsense.

 

[likesfish]

I don't know syria and egypt and jordon have given up trying to invade israel two have signed peace treatys
all thats left in the fight are hezbollah and the pals one way or another
hezbollah is going to be disarmed no state can be expected to take artillery fire from a neighbouring state and then have that state claim its not our army its a milita we have no control over
Can't see the right of return happening or a jewsih state handing over its most holy site to a regimne that would deny its belivers access

 

[teqniq]

I would like to see one secular state where everyone has equal rights. None of this violent ethnic nationalism nonsense.

In an ideal world, so would I. Unfortunately it's not likely to happen anytime soon.

 

[FruitandNut]

In an ideal world, so would I. Unfortunately it's not likely to happen anytime soon.

Yes, the trick is just how we might achieve human harmony from the building blocks of human anomie. Anyone know a good magician?

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. — George Bernard Shaw

 

[Wookster]

In an ideal world, so would I. Unfortunately it's not likely to happen anytime soon.

I wouldn't hold my breathe, but history has shown tha the sides that bear the most losses end up winning - Russia Vs Germany, US Vs Vietnam etc
It might take time but Israel won't last indefinitely. My heart pumps lumpy custard.

That having been said there are some really excellent Jewish values (good family values/ community spirit that is all but lost elsewhere) yet Israel is the Nazi equivalent of the 21st century.

 

[teqniq]

^^^
Good points.

However, I feel that the demise of Israel (at least in it's current form) is closely intertwined with the fortunes of the U.S. All the while the U.S. supports them financially, militarily and poitically, sadly I don't see an end to the bloodshed, misery and inequality, at least in the near future. One major factor which could have an effect in the near future is the collapse of the U.S. economy which has been perceived to be shaky recently - presently, I can't find the link I was reading this on. Some suggest that if oil trading switched to another currency, e.g. Euros it would bring their economy down like a house of cards. This has been discussed here at great length all in all it seems unlikely. (I'm not holding my breath on that one either).

P.S. Lumpy custard??? have you consulted your G.P?

 

[hipipol]

Colonial Wars

The Jewish Colony in Palestine, unless it can learn to stop attacking its neighbours will go the way of all colonies - whether or not its main sponsor continues to back it or not

 

[Wookster]

P.S. Lumpy custard??? have you consulted your G.P?

I consulted my Local Waitrose, man they do much better custard

Change will come, but I do think its going to take time.

I think also that these last 4 weeks have been the best answer as to why people focus on Israel so much - because it inspires so much anger.

 

[teqniq]

I consulted my Local Waitrose, man they do much better custard

Change will come, but I do think its going to take time.

Agreed but it may be a long time indeed, and providing the lunatics 'in charge' haven't manged to get us all incinerated in some sort of armageddon wish-fulfillment.

 

[TomUS]

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. — George Bernard Shaw

How refreshing. An island of practicality in a sea of idealistic naivete.

 

[ZAMB]

No, SOME justice. Aspiring to perfect justice is to aspire to the impossible which leads nowhere. There is no right of return, just a desire to return, and it's not practical. But some compensation could be part of the package.

I don't agree - if we don't even start out by even aspiring to perfect justice, then what happens in the end will be compromised. The Palestinians have been waiting a long time for justice - and the right of return is theirs legally. Jewish people from all over the world have a right to go and live there, as things stand, while the people who actually owned the land and were dispossessed are kept out. How is this even SOME justice? What % of justice would you be willing to give the Palestinians? 1%? 5%? 10%? That isn't justice, that's a band-aid!!

 

[moono]

The Palestinian's right to return is enshrined in international law.

 

[big footed fred]

They're only buildings. They can be removed very quickly. Just look at how fast American bombs have removed half of Beirut.

<load of bollocks to wind moono up>
These are hez's bombs.
America gave them to israel, Israel dumped them on hez.
If an item is abandoned it may become the property of whoever owns the land it was dumped on so the arabs should look at this as a chance to become scrap merchants.
Israel being nice again.
</load of bollocks to wind moono up>