"Israel must disappear"

[TomUS]

Maybe Tom equates 'owning' land to 'stealing' it ... because it'd never happen to him, would it? I doubt if he's given much thought to the legal situation.

Well, no my land has never been stolen, but I've given some thought to the legal aspects of the "right of return" thing.

So, we've got approx 5.3 mil Jewish & 1.4 mil Arab Israeli citizens. And approx 4 mil Arabs who claim a "right of return" - right?

Just exactly how would this be resolved? Some supreme international type court would arbitrate hundreds of thousands - several million lawsuits over land ownership in Israel I assume.

If I'm an Arab who wantns to "return" to my grandfather's farm that's now paved over under Ben Gurion airport or a shopping center in Tel Aviv or an Arab owned pizza shop in Jerusalem & I win, where do the current owners go? Do you really think they would say " OK we'll just leave?" Hell no. Whoever loses these lawsuits, whether Palestian or Jew or Israeli-Arab would fight light like hell. It would be a nonstop bloodbath.

Please explain to me how this could possibly work. I'd really like to know.

 

[moono]

It would be a bit like making robbers hand back the loot, Tom, no big deal, it's common practise.

 

[ZAMB]

Just exactly how would this be resolved? Some supreme international type court would arbitrate hundreds of thousands - several million lawsuits over land ownership in Israel I assume.

If I'm an Arab who wantns to "return" to my grandfather's farm that's now paved over under Ben Gurion airport or a shopping center in Tel Aviv or an Arab owned pizza shop in Jerusalem & I win, where do the current owners go? Do you really think they would say " OK we'll just leave?" Hell no. Whoever loses these lawsuits, whether Palestian or Jew or Israeli-Arab would fight light like hell. It would be a nonstop bloodbath.

Please explain to me how this could possibly work. I'd really like to know.

Then they should get proper financial compensation - don't you think that's fair? And they should still have the right of return to their own country. I know I'd hate to be forced to live outside NI.

 

[TomUS]

It would be a bit like making robbers hand back the loot, Tom, no big deal, it's common practise.

IOW, you have no idea how it would work. You just want it to. That's no answer to anything.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I wish atrocity endorsing humanity hating savages like you would disappear.

Read this. Shut up. Fuck off.

But based on that quote, Nasrallah won't ever want peace. He wants Israel destroyed, so any ceasefire must be temporary.

What should Israel do about somebody who wants them dead?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

When he says what ?

Something just came to me: are you actually grieving about these people being killed, or do you see this as an opportunity to advance your anti-israeli agenda?

I.e. more bodies, more anger.

 

[moono]

Something just came to me: are you actually grieving about these people being killed, or do you see this as an opportunity to advance your anti-israeli agenda?

Believing the latter will nurture your own sympathies with fascism. Don't let reason stand in your way.

 

[nino_savatte]

Something just came to me: are you actually grieving about these people being killed, or do you see this as an opportunity to advance your anti-israeli agenda?

I.e. more bodies, more anger.

My, how reductive you are in your response. It's all black and white to you - innit?

 

[TomUS]

What should Israel do about somebody who wants them dead?

Aparently all Jews in Israel are simply supposed to pack their bags & move. Where they're supposed to move to is never answered, except possibly to the US.

Either that, or Israel should dissolve itself as a Jewish state & allow approx 4 million Arabs, the great majority of whom have never lived in Israel, to "return." But I can't get anyone to explain how this would actually work in the real world.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Aparently all Jews in Israel are simply supposed to pack their bags & move. Where they're supposed to move to is never answered, except possibly to the US.

Either that, or Israel should dissolve itself as a Jewish state & allow approx 4 million Arabs, the great majority of whom have never lived in Israel, to "return." But I can't get anyone to explain how this would actually work in the real world.

Would that be anything like the millions of Jews who had never lived in Israel who "returned" there post-WW2 and displaced the Palestinian Arabs?

 

[muser]

Aparently all Jews in Israel are simply supposed to pack their bags & move. Where they're supposed to move to is never answered, except possibly to the US.

Either that, or Israel should dissolve itself as a Jewish state & allow approx 4 million Arabs, the great majority of whom have never lived in Israel, to "return." But I can't get anyone to explain how this would actually work in the real world.

How about israel stopping immigration to its land from outside the ME and replacing that with a gradual influx of palestinians. Would take generations but it would be palatable for both sides and reconciliation could begin.

 

[Lock&Light]

What should Israel do about somebody who wants them dead?

My, how reductive you are in your response. It's all black and white to you - innit?

How about a black and white answer to Johnny's perfectly relevant question?

 

[TomUS]

Would that be anything like the millions of Jews who had never lived in Israel who "returned" there post-WW2 and displaced the Palestinian Arabs?

Good point. But I don't think repeating that scenario in reverse woud be a good idea considering how things worked out the last time.

 

[TomUS]

How about israel stopping immigration to its land from outside the ME and replacing that with a gradual influx of palestinians. Would take generations but it would be palatable for both sides and reconciliation could begin.

At last, an attempt at reason. But really think most Palestinians would accept a plan that would take generations?

Still seems to me that 2 states is the only practical solution though.

 

[ZAMB]

There can never be 2 states until Israel knocks down the apartheid wall, withdraws to its pre-1967 boundaries, pays compensation to the people whose land they stole originally and stops trying to militarily control Palestine. Oh, yes, and frees all Palestinian prisoners too.

I can't see that happening unless the UN forces it to happen - Israel are too fond of the apartheid system, IMO.

 

[TomUS]

There can never be 2 states until Israel knocks down the apartheid wall, withdraws to its pre-1967 boundaries, pays compensation to the people whose land they stole originally and stops trying to militarily control Palestine. Oh, yes, and frees all Palestinian prisoners too.

I can't see that happening unless the UN forces it to happen - Israel are too fond of the apartheid system, IMO.

The wall has been effective in stopping many suicide bombings, so I wouldn't expect it to come down until the 2 states have lived in peace for a while. But I think the re-routing of some parts of it that cut through Palestinian towns & farms should be be negotiated- & then maybe a timetabe for phaseout.

Going back to the exact pre '67 boundaries will never happen. That would mean Israel giving up the old city of Jerusalem including the western wall. They should negotiate the handover of part of E Jerusalem.

Israel might be persuaded to contribute to some type of compensation fund, but Arab countries would also have to contribute. Israel would probably want compensation for the victims of suicide bombings also.

Israel would of course have to give up all military control of the territories in order for a Palestinian state to exist.

Some Palestinian prisoner releases could happen, but "all" isn't likely- at least not all at once-perhaps in phases.

And of course the Palestinian government would have to make a real attempt to stop attacks against Israel from Palestinian territory, and formally recognize Israel's right to exist. Even Arafat did the latter I think.

I don't think Israel is at all fond of an "apartheid" system. It withdrew from Gaza & would gladly withdraw from most of the WB if it felt secure.

I don't think the UN will force Israel do do anything but it would probably have to play some part. Also a new US president is needed who would make an attempt to bring about a solution, like Clinton did.

Things look pretty hopeless now, but no conflict lasts forever.

 

[ZAMB]

The wall has been effective in stopping many suicide bombings, so I wouldn't expect it to come down until the 2 states have lived in peace for a while. But I think the re-routing of some parts of it that cut through Palestinian towns & farms should be be negotiated- & then maybe a timetabe for phaseout.

Israeli propaganda BS. The reason for the wall was a land grab.

Going back to the exact pre '67 boundaries will never happen. That would mean Israel giving up the old city of Jerusalem including the western wall. They should negotiate the handover of part of E Jerusalem.

So you think it's OK to steal land by force.

Israel might be persuaded to contribute to some type of compensation fund, but Arab countries would also have to contribute. Israel would probably want compensation for the victims of suicide bombings also.

What about the relatives of Israeli massacres in refugee camps and elsewhere? And why should other countries have to pay for Israel's crimes against humanity?

Israel would of course have to give up all military control of the territories in order for a Palestinian state to exist.

Like they gave it up in Gaza??

Some Palestinian prisoner releases could happen, but "all" isn't likely- at least not all at once-perhaps in phases

.

Don't see why not. We managed it in NI as a condition for peace.

And of course the Palestinian government would have to make a real attempt to stop attacks against Israel from Palestinian territory, and formally recognize Israel's right to exist. Even Arafat did the latter I think.

Hamas has offered this and been turned down.

I don't think Israel is at all fond of an "apartheid" system. It withdrew from Gaza & would gladly withdraw from most of the WB if it felt secure.

This is BS - even South Africa [another US ally] didn't keep communities trapped behind walls - people can't even travel from one part of 'Palestine' to another.

I don't think the UN will force Israel do do anything but it would probably have to play some part. Also a new US president is needed who would make an attempt to bring about a solution, like Clinton did.

While the Jewish Lobby has so much power in Washington, the US will never be seen as an 'honest broker' in the ME - it should butt out and let it be decided by the other countries in the UN.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yep, war is hell. So is Arab Israel-hating fanaticism. I enjoyed your intelligent comment though.

ok here's an intelligent one according to humans rights watch the isrealis have launched prior to the war with palestine and lebanon 4855 rocket attacks compared to recieving only in the same period 455. Can you say disproportionate response to an action which they not only initiated but also escaleted...

can you explain what business the IDF had in strolling into gaza attacking an ambulance and kidnapping two doctors prior to shit'late's detention as a POW? Can you also explain why there was an IDF tank inside lebannese teritory in order for hezballah to manage to kill them and take two hostage in the first place, had it got lost, taken the wrong road and just found it'self there...

can you explain why washington had a resolution plan for exactly this outcome...

you prize fucktard why don't you learn to read ... and to use google it's not like this information isn't there in bucket loads to the most shambolic half arse cock who can type in 3 words in to a fucking search engine...

how fucking tiny is your ego that you need to consistantly espouse racist bollocks about arabs in order to prop up your own feelings of in adiquacy...

kill your self there's no hope for you really fuck jump off a bridge throw yourself under a train anything just kill your self you twat...

 

[TomUS]

you prize fucktard why don't you learn to read ...

how fucking tiny is your ego that you need to consistantly espouse racist bollocks about arabs in order to prop up your own feelings of in adiquacy...

kill your self there's no hope for you really fuck jump off a bridge throw yourself under a train anything just kill your self you twat...

Not sure how I should/could respond to such a tirade of insults. But, I'll try a little. Exactly how am I racist? I said the Palestinians should have their own country free of Israeli military occupation. Jeeez....

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Not sure how I should/could respond to such a tirade of insults. But, I'll try a little. Exactly how am I racist? I said the Palestinians should have their own country free of Israeli military occupation. Jeeez....

care to explain where this is the common destrator in anything then...

So is Arab Israel-hating fanaticism.

let me see now if your town was being hit by 4855 rocket attacks from Isreal might you grab a quassam and fight back too... would this be charchterised as American Isreal-hating??? or would it be the snapping under increasing strains which had pushed your back to the wall in a situation which you have no choice over, other than to die or to die and take a few of them with you...

you continued bollocks on these forums is frankly pathetic...

why not try internet chat rooms at least you might find another way to releve the tension you have built up in your life rather than this continued racism, you don't have the cart before the horse so much as having a cart a few million miles away from a horse in you wildly inaccurate nonsensical continual bollocks...

fuck up or fuck off either will do...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I don't think Israel is at all fond of an "apartheid" system.

read

Entry denied: Deporting witnesses of Israeli occupation and unilateralism...

 

[ZAMB]

Not sure how I should/could respond to such a tirade of insults. But, I'll try a little. Exactly how am I racist? I said the Palestinians should have their own country free of Israeli military occupation. Jeeez....

But you also said

But I think the re-routing of some parts of it that cut through Palestinian towns & farms should be be negotiated- & then maybe a timetabe for phaseout.
Going back to the exact pre '67 boundaries will never happen. That would mean Israel giving up the old city of Jerusalem including the western wall. They should negotiate the handover of part of E Jerusalem.

Did you watch that 'Iron Wall' documentary? Don't you think that the Palestinians have given up enough already? While the wall, the checkpoints, the israeli only use of highways, and of course the west bank settlements, continue, all talk of a 'palestinian state' is a waste of time. If the Israelis wanted the palestinians to have a state, they would have accepted their democratically elected govt., instead of locking them up. The israelis don't want a Palestinian state, they want to get rid of the palestinians, as their govt. has said so often.

 

[TomUS]

Israeli propaganda BS. The reason for the wall was a land grab.

Had there been no organized wave of suicide bombings inside Israel, there would be no wall now. That's obvious to me. Do you deny that?

So you think it's OK to steal land by force.

So, you think Israel should give up the western wall? It's a Jewish state for chrissake. The western wall is the heart of Judaism. Asking them to give it up is like asking Muslims to give up Mecca. I'm an athiest & thus can't stand any religion. But I recognize political reality.

And why should other countries have to pay for Israel's crimes against humanity?

Because those other countries were threatening & attempting to destroy Israel. They have to pay something.

Like they gave it up in Gaza??

Yea. They gave it up & were immediately attacked from there. I concede they didn't give it up because they were nice guys. It was because it was costing too many resources to guard a small bunch of religious fanatic settlers. But they did give it up.

Don't see why not. We managed it in NI as a condition for peace.

So, you want Israel to release attemped suicide bombers that targeted civilians & those who organized it right away? Not going to happen. It could only be done in phases. Actually, I think israel should execute them... very slowly. But that would only reward the psychos. So I suppose Israel will eventually have to release the bastards.

Hamas has offered this and been turned down.

Really? Hamas has offered to recognize Israel's right to exist & made a genuine attempt to stop the rocketing of Israel from Gaza? Please show the evidence of this.

This is BS - even South Africa [another US ally] didn't keep communities trapped behind walls - people can't even travel from one part of 'Palestine' to another.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I think Palestinians should have a contigous state where they can travel around without going through any Israeli chechpoints.

While the Jewish Lobby has so much power in Washington, the US will never be seen as an 'honest broker' in the ME - it should butt out and let it be decided by the other countries in the UN.

You are correct about the Jewish lobby. However, in spite of this Carter managed to broker peace between Israel & Egypt. And Clinton did make a genuine effort to bring about a settlement. IMO, Bush bears much responsibility for what's happening now in the Israeli-Palestinian thing. He's a Christian/militarist psycho & has done nothing but harm to the region, especially by his Iraq invasion. A rational US president could help the situation a lot.

 

[TomUS]

or would it be the snapping under increasing strains which had pushed your back to the wall in a situation which you have no choice over, other than to die or to die and take a few of them with you...

you continued bollocks on these forums is frankly pathetic...

fuck up or fuck off either will do...

I simply will not respond to insults with insults. That's childish.

Speaking of "backs against the wall", that's how Israel feels. Can't you see that? "Take a few of them with you ?" Yea man, kill some Jews. Make you feel good? Both sides feel their backs are against the wall. I feel for both sides.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I simply will not respond to insults with insults. That's childish.

Speaking of "backs against the wall", that's how Israel feels. Can't you see that? "Take a few of them with you ?" Yea man, kill some Jews. Make you feel good? Both sides feel their backs are against the wall. I feel for both sides.

isreal feel's like it's back is against the wall ... bollocks .

isreali feels like it has impunity to do whatever it likes like the little borther of the school bully... which is precisely what is has with US governmental backing....

 

[TomUS]

If the Israelis wanted the palestinians to have a state, they would have accepted their democratically elected govt., instead of locking them up. The israelis don't want a Palestinian state, they want to get rid of the palestinians, as their govt. has said so often.

Really? The Israeli gov has said often they want to get rid of the Palestians? Please provide evidence of this. And yes the Palestinians do have a democratically elected gov. The problem is that gov is dedicated to Israel's destruction. How is Israel supposed to negotiate with a gov that want's to destroy it?

 

[TomUS]

isreal feel's like it's back is against the wall ... bollocks .

isreali feels like it has impunity to do whatever it likes like the little borther of the school bully... which is precisely what is has with US governmental backing....

Just look at history. Israel has been outnumbered & with it's back to the sea for almost 60 years. It fights to survive, not to have an apartheid state. I disaprove of much of what Israel has done, especially the setlements. But that doesn't negate it's right to exist. The fanatics of Hamas & Hezbollah have no interest in peaceful coegistence. They simply want to slaughter Jews & to turn their kids into human bombs for "god". I hope they will fail for the sake of humanity. US bombs & bullets will continue to help Israel defend itself rom the Islamic psychos. The US & Israeli public are absoutely united on this issue.

 

[nino_savatte]

I simply will not respond to insults with insults. That's childish.

Speaking of "backs against the wall", that's how Israel feels. Can't you see that? "Take a few of them with you ?" Yea man, kill some Jews. Make you feel good? Both sides feel their backs are against the wall. I feel for both sides.

How do you think the innocent victims of Israeli aggression feel? I've noticed that you've show absolutely no compassion for the Lebanese people but have pulled out the stops in your [unquestioning] support for Israel. But this is not surprising, given the fact that you accept all that your news media tells you: Israel is "defending itself from the evil barbarous forces of 'Islamofascism'". If you're a 'liberal', then I'm the King of Tonga.

You, like many others, have adopted your own narrativised version of events and have accepted Israel's Orwellian redefinition of the word "defence". 2 Israeli soldiers were captured (not kidnapped) by Hezbollah while they were inside Lebanon's borders, Israel responded by bombing Lebanon and subjecting the entire Lebanese naton to collective punishment; and it did this partly to deflect attention away from its activities in Gaza and the West Bank.

Go soak your head.

 

[nino_savatte]

Just look at history. Israel has been outnumbered & with it's back to the sea for almost 60 years. It fights to survive, not to have an apartheid state. I disaprove of much of what Israel has done, especially the setlements. But that doesn't negate it's right to exist. The fanatics of Hamas & Hezbollah have no interest in peaceful coegistence. They simply want to slaughter Jews & to turn their kids into human bombs for "god". I hope they will fail for the sake of humanity. US bombs & bullets will continue to help Israel defend itself rom the Islamic psychos. The US & Israeli public are absoutely united on this issue.

My, how one-dimensional this 'analysis' is.

It's too easy for you: Israel = good guys and everyone else = bad guys.

 

[TomUS]

How do you think the innocent victims of Israeli aggression feel? I've noticed that you've show absolutely no compassion for the Lebanese people....If you're a 'liberal', then I'm the King of Tonga.

I have compassion for everyone involved in this conflict, including the soldiers-even the Hezbollah fighters to some degree because they have been duped into believing they'll go to heaven if they die while killing Jews. I have also noticed a total lack of compassion for the Iisraeli civilians hit by Hezbollah rockets among the anti-Israel folks here. Most seem to feel like their just animals who deserve slaughter.

And I guess you are indeed the King of Tonga because unlike in Europe, most US liberals support Israel.