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"Israel must disappear"

TomUS said:
I don't want any civillians attacked & I don't approve of much of Israel's early carless methods in Lebanon. But looking at it from the long term, there can never be peace between Israel & Lebanon as long as Hezbollah militarily dominates that country. Israel has to finish the job.

By flattening Lebanon? Israel has now done enough to ensure that whole generations of Lebanese will simply never give up until Israel is gone.

Israel DOESNT have to finish the job, it shouldn't have even started "the job". I would rather they didn't because all Israel is good at, is installing yet more hate and terror on people. When the invitable counter attack comes, she'll be running to America screaming "See, they won't give up until they destroy us!!!"

Let the UN finish the job. The Israelis have no business in Lebanon.
 
TonkaToy said:
By flattening Lebanon? Israel has now done enough to ensure that whole generations of Lebanese will simply never give up until Israel is gone.

Israel DOESNT have to finish the job, it shouldn't have even started "the job". I would rather they didn't because all Israel is good at, is installing yet more hate and terror on people. When the invitable counter attack comes, she'll be running to America screaming "See, they won't give up until they destroy us!!!"

Let the UN finish the job. The Israelis have no business in Lebanon.
I'd like to see the UN solve this but it can't. The UN has been in Lebanon for many years & has simply observed. Israel has every business in Lebanon because Hezbollah wants to destroy Israel & attacks it. I agree that Israel has created more hate against itself. They have been stupid & overly brutal. But what are they to do? Sit by while an organization dedicated to it's destruction grows more & more powerful in Lebanon?
 
TomUS said:
There can never be peace between Israel & Lebanon as long as Hezbollah militarily dominates that country. Israel has to finish the job.
There was peace between Britain and the Jews while Jewish terrorists dominated the country. A mandate for the RAF to "finish the job" would have required the RAF to destroy proto-Israeli infrastructure, possibly preventing the formation of the legitimate state of Israel.

If that would have been unacceptable conduct, yet "finishing the job" today would be acceptable conduct - can you say why you would be prepared to apply such different standards?
 
TomUS said:
I'd like to see the UN solve this but it can't. The UN has been in Lebanon for many years & has simply observed. Israel has every business in Lebanon because Hezbollah wants to destroy Israel & attacks it. I agree that Israel has created more hate against itself. They have been stupid & overly brutal. But what are they to do? Sit by while an organization dedicated to it's destruction grows more & more powerful in Lebanon?
The UN is ineffective because of the US and Israel ignoring all resolutions in that area, apart from the ones that suit, so it's a bit rich to blame them. They could quite easily have got a peacekeeping force in there at the start, but the oppertunity to smash one of their neighbours was too great. I think the US is also hoping that this sparks a wider regional conflict.
 
TomUS said:
I don't want any civillians attacked & I don't approve of much of Israel's early carless methods in Lebanon. But looking at it from the long term, there can never be peace between Israel & Lebanon as long as Hezbollah militarily dominates that country. Israel has to finish the job.
"finish the job". Such a glib way to refer to the invasion of a sovereign state, and the systematic demolition of its infrastructure to what end? Getting rid of Hezbollah? Don't make me laugh! This is collective punishment. It's a tawdry attempt to sow the ground of South Lebanon with salt, so as to discourage local support for Hezbollah; and what it's actually achieving is exactly what it achieved ten years ago - it's pushing the Lebanese into the arms of Hezbollah, who they will inevitably see as their only hope against Israel's "neighbourhood bully" tactics.

When the dust settles, and the survivors crawl out of the wreckage of their cities, there is going to be a whirlwind for Israel to reap. They won't wish they hadn't invaded Lebanon, because Israel is never wrong, but they ought to. My suspicion is that, at this rate, Israel is going to have - again - allied all the Mediterranean Arab states against it, and will - again - be fighting for its life. A life which it, as a state, frankly doesn't deserve to have, given its behaviour in the last few weeks alone.
 
nino_savatte said:
That's because the authority of the UN has been undermined by yours truly: Tweedledee and Tweedledum (US and Israel).
Ahem. Where does the pathetic and spineless Tony "yeah, fly your bombs through our airports, Georgie-baby" Blair fit into this scenario?
 
fractionMan said:
Along the lines of "fuck off you plebs, we're gonna blow all your houses down."

If it was happening in your neigbourhood, how would you react to that?

And in a number of cases [already linked elsewhere] they give warnings just to get people to leave their homes so that they can be incinerated in their cars.
 
TomUS said:
I don't want any civillians attacked & I don't approve of much of Israel's early carless methods in Lebanon. But looking at it from the long term, there can never be peace between Israel & Lebanon as long as Hezbollah militarily dominates that country. Israel has to finish the job.

Israel was a state set up by terrorist gangs and only given [dubious] legitimacy by playing the old holocaust card. Throughout their history there has been war crime after war crime with zero consequences because of the good old USA, who back all the best terrorist gangs. Lebanon was a soverign country occupied by Israel until the local freedom fighters [hezbollah] drove them out of most of the country. Lebanon has good reason to be afraid of these Israeli thugs from past experience, yet you'd give them carte blanche to go in and occupy Lebanon again. You must be nuts.

You'd think Blair would remember his history before chumming up to the Israelis.
The King David Hotel explosion of July 22, 1946 (Palestine), which resulted in the deaths of 92 Britons, Arabs and Jews, and in the wounding of 58, was not just an act of “Jewish extremists,” but a premeditated massacre conducted by the Irgun in agreement with the highest Jewish political authorities in Palestine-- the Jewish Agency and its head David-Ben-Gurion.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4667.htm
 
ZAMB said:
You'd think Blair would remember his history before chumming up to the Israelis.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4667.htm
Still trying to get mileage out of the King David Hotel. But that article contadicts itself.
The King David Hotel was used as an office housing the Secretariat of the Palestine Government and British Army Headquarters.......... The Chief Secretary for the Government of Palestine, Sir John Shaw, declared in a broadcast: “As head of the Secretariat, the majority of the dead and wounded were my own staff...
It was a military target, not a terrorist attack against civillians. And the Brits did such a great job in helping create the bowder keg that the area became.
 
Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee,
[and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying],
Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee,
[even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
 
TomUS said:
Still trying to get mileage out of the King David Hotel. But that article contadicts itself.

It was a military target, not a terrorist attack against civillians. And the Brits did such a great job in helping create the bowder keg that the area became.

It's history that Blair would do well to keep in mind - although my main point in mentioning it I guess was an example of how Israel was founded on terrorism and cold-blooded murder. And it doesn't contradict itself - not everyone who was killed could be counted as a 'military target' - though that doesn't excuse anything anyhow.

Israel was a country founded on terrorism and war crimes. Some of the 1948 refugees still hang onto their legal papers - in the slight hope that they can someday go home or get compensation.
Most of the heinous crimes of "ethnic cleansing", which we have seen on our TV screens during the Kosovo crisis, have been committed in 1948. About 34 massacres have been reported during the Al Nakba, all part of the Israeli military campaign. Many more are still yet uncovered. The pattern is clear. Villages are surrounded from all sides except one, leaving the way open for escapees to spread the horror stories. Young men are shot against a wall, thrown in a well or burnt alive. Their houses are burnt and later demolished. Even bacteriological warfare was used by poisoning wells and infecting drinking water with malaria and typhus. That was the case in Gaza in the summer of 1948 as Ben Gurion admitted in his diary. Evidence is overwhelming that the depopulation of Palestinian land, hence the creation of the so-called "refugee problem", is the direct result of a total war waged against the Palestinians by the Israelis during and after the British mandate, using military and psychological means. In brief, they wanted the land, not the people. They wanted a fulfilment of the myth that Palestine was a "land without people".
http://www.plands.org/speechs/2.htm

War crimes against the Palestinians go on to this day - we can watch them on TV - but still the rest of the world won't stand up to the USA and Israel and get some justice for these people. There will never be peace in the ME while the world turns a blind eye to redressing the crimes of the recent past, IMO.

The USA largely succeeded in a similar crime with the native americans, but there wasn't TV and modern communications around then.
 
I don't think Israel needs to disappear, just move. I think that Wyoming State would be a good place for Israel to be relocated.

Israel can't seem to get along with her neighbours. By moving into the center of the United States, they will be surrounded by friendly, supportive States and countries. Finally, they will have a place to call their own and can settle down and enjoy a more peaceful life.

The people of Wyoming won't mind moving - they had no problem with the displacing of people last time the UN gave Israel some land. They can show the world how to live peacefully with Israel.
 
spring-peeper said:
I don't think Israel needs to disappear, just move. I think that Wyoming State would be a good place for Israel to be relocated.

Israel can't seem to get along with her neighbours. By moving into the center of the United States, they will be surrounded by friendly, supportive States and countries. Finally, they will have a place to call their own and can settle down and enjoy a more peaceful life.

The people of Wyoming won't mind moving - they had no problem with the displacing of people last time the UN gave Israel some land. They can show the world how to live peacefully with Israel.

If you think any American would allow themselves to be driven out of their homes like they expect the Palestinians to permit, you're dreaming. And don't forget that Americans can buy heavy assault weapons legally - if a bulldozer showed up at an American house the occupants would happily shoot the driver.
 
spring-peeper said:
I don't think Israel needs to disappear, just move. I think that Wyoming State would be a good place for Israel to be relocated.
Well, I don't know. Wyoming gets a hell of a lot of snow in the winter. Them Jews would feel more at home in a hot deserty place like Arizona or New Mexico. And we could use their wall building expertise along the Rio Grande to keep out the illegals.
 
Taken from here...

For six decades the Palestinian refugees have been refused their right to return home because they are of the wrong race. ""Israel" must remain a Jewish state," is an almost sacral mantra across the Western political spectrum. It means, in practice, that "Israel" is accorded the right to be an ethnocracy at the expense of the refugees and their descendants, now close to 5 million.
Is it not understandable that "Israel's" ethnic preoccupation profoundly offends not only Palestinians, but many of their Arab brethren? Yet rather than demanding that "Israel" acknowledge its foundational wrongs as a first step toward equality and coexistence, the Western world blithely insists that each and all must recognize "Israel's" right to exist at the Palestinians' expense.
Western discourse seems unable to accommodate a serious, as opposed to cosmetic concern for Palestinians' rights and liberties: The Palestinians are the Indians who refuse to live on the reservation; the Negroes who refuse to sit in the back of the bus.
By what moral right does anyone tell them to be realistic and get over themselves? That it is too much of a hassle to right the wrongs committed against them? That the front of the bus must remain ethnically pure? When they refuse to recognize their occupier and embrace their racial inferiority, when desperation and frustration causes them to turn to violence, and when neighbors and allies come to their aid - some for reasons of power politics, others out of idealism - we are astonished that they are all such fanatics and extremists.
 
TomUS said:
Still trying to get mileage out of the King David Hotel...

Tom, before 9/11, the King David Hotel attack was the worst ever terrorist attack in terms of British fatalities.

But that's not really the point. It's not really part of British culture to hate those whom we fight, or who fight us. Time to read your Rudyard Kipling! No, the point is simply to emphasise that Israel (like many contemporary states, including the USA itself) was born out of a violent terrorist struggle against the previous, legitimate, holders of power.

Many of us think that the present racist and apartheid Israel born out of terrorist actions is morally bankrupt and indefensible. It should be replaced by a secular arrangement which at least attempts to protect the life, liberty, and right to seek happiness of all who live within its purview.

Have you got a problem with that?
 
TomUS said:
Well, I don't know. Wyoming gets a hell of a lot of snow in the winter. Them Jews would feel more at home in a hot deserty place like Arizona or New Mexico. And we could use their wall building expertise along the Rio Grande to keep out the illegals.
:eek: chokes on cornflakes :eek:

That is so politically incorrect, you deserve your own talk show!
 
pembrokestephen said:
Ahem. Where does the pathetic and spineless Tony "yeah, fly your bombs through our airports, Georgie-baby" Blair fit into this scenario?

They both do, but Dubya figures more in this, since he was the one who appointed Bolton (Yosemite Sam) as US 'Ambassador' to the UN. The US right has never made any secret of its loathing of the UN. Furthermore the US has sabotaged any resolution which censures Israel or condemns its brutality in the occupied territories. Blair is culpable but the FCO doesn't behave in the same way as the State Dept does vis a vis the UN.
 
pembrokestephen said:
"finish the job". Such a glib way to refer to the invasion of a sovereign state, and the systematic demolition of its infrastructure to what end? Getting rid of Hezbollah? Don't make me laugh! This is collective punishment. It's a tawdry attempt to sow the ground of South Lebanon with salt, so as to discourage local support for Hezbollah; and what it's actually achieving is exactly what it achieved ten years ago - it's pushing the Lebanese into the arms of Hezbollah, who they will inevitably see as their only hope against Israel's "neighbourhood bully" tactics.
And, as the more cynical and/or conspiratastic are now starting to claim, it's expansionism. :(
Now personally I don't give such a claim credence, even though it would accord with the insane dreams of those Zionists who fantasise about eretz yisroel, but the fact that this claim is now "out in the world" is something I find extremely disturbing for it's implications for Jews per se not just for Israel and Israelis.
 
TomUS said:
Well, I don't know. Wyoming gets a hell of a lot of snow in the winter. Them Jews would feel more at home in a hot deserty place like Arizona or New Mexico. And we could use their wall building expertise along the Rio Grande to keep out the illegals.

You're absolutely right, after all, none of us Jews are descended from people who lived in snowy Poland, snowy eastern Europe, or snowy Russia, are we?
 
ViolentPanda said:
You're absolutely right, after all, none of us Jews are descended from people who lived in snowy Poland, snowy eastern Europe, or snowy Russia, are we?
But we're talking about all the Jews in Israel leaving. In addition to the folks being climatized to the mid easte, all their armored vehicles have been designed for desert areas. Let's put together a proposal, send it to Bolton & maybe he'll come up with a partician plan for splitting Arizona into a Jewish state & a Christian state. Oh, and the Jews get to take the temple mount with them so they can re-build the temple.
 
TomUS said:
But we're talking about all the Jews in Israel leaving. In addition to the folks being climatized to the mid easte, all their armored vehicles have been designed for desert areas. Let's put together a proposal, send it to Bolton & maybe he'll come up with a partician plan for splitting Arizona into a Jewish state & a Christian state. Oh, and the Jews get to take the temple mount with them so they can re-build the temple.

Do you think for a minute that the US government would allow a separate nuclear armed state to be implanted on US soil?
 
Jonti said:
Many of us think that the present racist and apartheid Israel born out of terrorist actions is morally bankrupt and indefensible. It should be replaced by a secular arrangement which at least attempts to protect the life, liberty, and right to seek happiness of all who live within its purview.

Have you got a problem with that?
I'd very much like to see that happen. But since we have to deal with what can be rathar than the ideal, I see no point in all this talk about replacing Israel with the kind of state we'd both like to see in our ideal world. I don't think that the Jews & Palestinians could get along together in one state after all that's happened in the last 60 years. I doubt most Palestinians would want to live in such a state unless they could have their "right of return." But there's nowhere for them to return to. That land is now owned by Jewish & Arab Israelis.

I think the only possible solution at this time is 2 states. Insisting on something else will simply keep the conflict going IMO.
 
But there's nowhere for them to return to. That land is now owned by Jewish & Arab Israelis.

That ain't so, Tom. Many of the Palestinian diaspora have verifiable legal title. Many others need documents kept by the Zionists but still have strong claims, strong enough to succeed under an impartial court.
 
moono said:
That ain't so, Tom. Many of the Palestinian diaspora have verifiable legal title. Many others need documents kept by the Zionists but still have strong claims, strong enough to succeed under an impartial court.

That's why the Israelis will never consent to the "right of return" IMO, apart from being outnumbered, there might be some embarrassing cases in international courts. I was reading about these maps the other day - that they have a lot of detail. Maybe Tom equates 'owning' land to 'stealing' it ... because it'd never happen to him, would it? I doubt if he's given much thought to the legal situation.
 
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