"Israel is worse than Nazi Germany"

[TremulousTetra]

if SW have embraced fundamentalism, so has the Liberal Democrats, Green party, Labour Party, etc, all of whom have been endorsed by the MAB, marched alongside the MAB, and have supporters who are members of MAB.

In my opinion, none of them have embraced fundamentalism with the exception of the Liberal Democrats and Labour Party LEADERSHIP, who has embraced the fundamentalism of Thatcherism not political Islam.

 

[Mallard]

if SW have embraced fundamentalism, so has the Liberal Democrats, Green party, Labour Party, etc, all of whom have been endorsed by the MAB, marched alongside the MAB, and have supporters who are members of MAB.

And your point is comrade?

 

[TremulousTetra]

And your point is comrade?

my point was the part of the post you cut out.

 

[Mallard]

my point was the part of the post you cut out.

You've edited that Resistance that's not on Allahway, the SWP and their ilk are in bed with the fundamentalists the ludicrous statements above support that view. It's hardly surprising though is it as both the SWP and the fundamentalists believe in a strong all powerful state led by a vangard with which they hope to suppress dissent and non-conformity?

 

[TremulousTetra]

You've edited that Resistance that's not on Allahway, the SWP and their ilk are in bed with the fundamentalists the ludicrous statements above support that view. It's hardly surprising though is it as both the SWP and the fundamentalists believe in a strong all powerful state led by a vangard with which they hope to suppress dissent and non-conformity?

Fair enough about my edit, it was a pretty quick addition, it was just that you were even faster. I'm sure there was no ill intent on either side.

SW, along with the 2 million other people who marched against a war, the Liberal Democrats, Labour Party members, Green party and so many more are in a coalition with organisations like MAB. Building bridges, you get your hands dirty, whilest those shouting from the sidelines keep their hands scrupulously clean.

on your last point, I don't know anybody in SW who does not believe in communism, a classless nonhierarchical society in contrast to the middle-class fifth monarchist position of the anarchist.

 

[Mallard]

Fair enough about my edit, it was a pretty quick addition, it was just that you were even faster. I'm sure there was no ill intent on either side.

SW, along with the 2 million other people who marched against a war, the Liberal Democrats, Labour Party members, Green party and so many more are in a coalition with organisations like MAB. Building bridges, you get your hands dirty, whilest those shouting from the sidelines keep their hands scrupulously clean.

on your last point, I don't know anybody in SW who does not believe in communism, a classless nonhierarchical society in contrast to the middle-class fifth monarchist position of the anarchist.

Good of you to own up. It's just not cricket you know. I'm sure you can work out my opinions on the war! It's the opportunistic nature of the SWP's electoral alliances that I'm referring to although I believe that you may not have got so many comrades in last time. 'Middle-class' or 'monarchist' Resistance we've gone a little off thread here! Do you really think the statement at the start of the thread is worthy of your support?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Good of you to own up. It's just not cricket you know. I'm sure you can work out my opinions on the war! It's the opportunistic nature of the SWP's electoral alliances that I'm referring to although I believe that you may not have got so many comrades in last time. 'Middle-class' or 'monarchist' Resistance we've gone a little off thread here! Do you really think the statement at the start of the thread is worthy of your support?

does the link I provided not answer that question?

going back to the original comments from you that I responded to, you are wrong, there isn't anything new about SW working with people whose politics ain't perfect. Would you work with the leadership of the TUC, Labour Party, Arthur Scargill, George Galloway, Derek Hatton? Probably none of these. We have a difference of opinion about the method, get used to it. There is nothing opportunistic about it, it is purely pragmatic.

I have met shop stewards with far worse views on Israel than the fella in this thread, should I refuse to work with them?

 

[Gavin Bl]

I have met shop stewards with far worse views on Israel than the fella in this thread, should I refuse to work with them?

Bit different to inviting a jazz musician to Marxism though, isn't it?

The SWP normally take a very sharp line against comparisons of 'other' atrocities with the holocaust. I'm really surprised they keep inviting this guy, seriously.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Bit different to inviting a jazz musician to Marxism though, isn't it?

The SWP normally take a very sharp line against comparisons of 'other' atrocities with the holocaust. I'm really surprised they keep inviting this guy, seriously.

I am not for one minute arguing you should not have a different opinion on this fella, or you should invite him to your events. I am arguing it is possible to come to a different conclusion about this fella, without necessarily being "opportunistic", Machiavellian ect. The fact of the matter is, SW could be wrong, this guy could have crossed the line, but it is quite clear from the link they do not at this moment in time believe so. That is an honest opinion, right or wrong.

Is it possible you could be wrong?

 

[mk12]

you work with the leadership of the TUC, Labour Party, Arthur Scargill, George Galloway, Derek Hatton?

These are slightly different to Atzmon though aren't they? A man who thinks that we should take seriously the idea that Jews are trying to control the world!

 

[Gavin Bl]

I am not for one minute arguing you should not have a different opinion on this fella, or you should invite him to your events. I am arguing it is possible to come to a different conclusion about this fella, without necessarily being "opportunistic", Machiavellian ect. The fact of the matter is, SW could be wrong, this guy could have crossed the line, but it is quite clear from the link they do not at this moment in time believe so. That is an honest opinion, right or wrong.

Is it possible you could be wrong?

yes of course I could RMP3, I'm honestly not point scoring here. I used to be in the SWP in the 90s, and am just genuinely surprised at the continued attachment to him.

 

[TremulousTetra]

These are slightly different to Atzmon though aren't they? A man who thinks that we should take seriously the idea that Jews are trying to control the world!

if you look at the entire paragraph in post 67 it was nothing to do with Atzmon.

PS. I take from the "socialist self-interest" you do not think the @'s contributed anything to the failure of the revolution in Spain, etc?

 

[TremulousTetra]

yes of course I could RMP3, I'm honestly not point scoring here. I used to be in the SWP in the 90s, and am just genuinely surprised at the continued attachment to him.

fair enough. I can only presume some people know him well enough, to vouch that he is not coming from some kind of fascist angle. I don't really know the answer to your question. I only joined the thread to address the usual conspiracy theory rubbish.

 

[mk12]

if you look at the entire paragraph in post 67 it was nothing to do with Atzmon.

PS. I take from the "socialist self-interest" you do not think the @'s contributed anything to the failure of the revolution in Spain, etc?

im waiting for you to reply to points ive raised. I think I admitted on there that @'s should take some of the blame.

Yep, i did: "But i'd say the CNT should take some of the blame for what happened (or what didn't happen) in Spain, yeah."

 

[bolshiebhoy]

These are slightly different to Atzmon though aren't they? A man who thinks that we should take seriously the idea that Jews are trying to control the world!

Actually there is a sort of lazy anti-semitism that is popular on the left. Think of Tam Dalyell's remarks about Jewish influence in no 10 and the White House. Does that mean the anti-war movement would boycott events where Tam was on the platform?

 

[mk12]

This isn't talking about Jewish influence. He says we should seriously consider Jews aiming to take control of the world - something Hitler wouldn't disagree with.

 

[rocketman]

I've been wrong before, may well be wrong again, but doesn't the word "semite" refer to the races - Jewish and Arab - that lived in that area which is now Israel. Palestine, lebanon?

As such anti semite is often used inappropriately.

 

[TremulousTetra]

im waiting for you to reply to points ive raised. I think I admitted on there that @'s should take some of the blame.

Yep, i did: "But i'd say the CNT should take some of the blame for what happened (or what didn't happen) in Spain, yeah."

sorry didn't notice. i'll look.

 

[Ryoma]

You've got to hand it to the SWP they've been a lot more interesting since they moved in to comedy and embraced fundamentalism. I used to ignore them now I look forward to reading reactionary piffle like the above for the entertainment value.

It's telling that they condemn their Left critics as either Islamophobes or pandering to Islamophobia - A bit like those unthinking Zionists who write off any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic! You couldn't make it up!

 

[bolshiebhoy]

This isn't talking about Jewish influence. He says we should seriously consider Jews aiming to take control of the world - something Hitler wouldn't disagree with.

Yes he does say that. He's one of the few examples where the phrase 'self-hater' actually fits a jewish critic of Israel. He seriously believes judaism is by it's very nature a colonial and aggressive religion. But that doesn't make him a Nazi! Any more than the LCR leader Gilbert Achcar who spoke at the swp's Marxism 2004 event and argued that Islam was intrinsically more irrational than other religions. Unlike Christianity which he regarded as the religion of a persecuted sect he argues that Islam was created as (and more importantly cannot break free from it's origin as) the religion of empire builders. Now there are two things you can say about this view. One it's not a very marxist way to look at a religion, laying down for all time that it must play a reactionary and concquering role. And two it's the mirror of what Atzmon says about Judaism. Both are dead wrong but they're not fascsists or people we want to apply No Platform to.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've been wrong before, may well be wrong again, but doesn't the word "semite" refer to the races - Jewish and Arab - that lived in that area which is now Israel. Palestine, lebanon?

As such anti semite is often used inappropriately.

You're right.

"Anti-Semite" is used because it has become a convenient shorthand for Judeophobia, it's more "in your face" but far less accurate.

 

[TremulousTetra]

yes of course I could RMP3, I'm honestly not point scoring here. I used to be in the SWP in the 90s, and am just genuinely surprised at the continued attachment to him.

This is a much better reply than mine.

Yes he does say that. He's one of the few examples where the phrase 'self-hater' actually fits a jewish critic of Israel. He seriously believes judaism is by it's very nature a colonial and aggressive religion. But that doesn't make him a Nazi! Any more than the LCR leader Gilbert Achcar who spoke at the swp's Marxism 2004 event and argued that Islam was intrinsically more irrational than other religions. Unlike Christianity which he regarded as the religion of a persecuted sect he argues that Islam was created as (and more importantly cannot break free from it's origin as) the religion of empire builders. Now there are two things you can say about this view. One it's not a very marxist way to look at a religion, laying down for all time that it must play a reactionary and concquering role. And two it's the mirror of what Atzmon says about Judaism. Both are dead wrong but they're not fascsists or people we want to apply No Platform to.

well said. if logic was being applied to this discussion, it would now be over.

 

[durruti02]

The Military Political & Fi8nancial Support that that Israel has openly given to these Regimes. And the unethical practices of International Zionist Banking/Lobbying Groups, specifically in and thriough America.

fuck me! .. if me and TB are in the BNP then what mad group is Nigel in

 

[durruti02]

Perhaps you should try Beruit

what SICK FKING BULLSHIT!!! .. this is a war between two countries ..yes backed by imperialisms .. IT IS NOT AN ATTEMPT A GENOCIDE

 

[durruti02]

I don't agree with the swp inviting him to bookmarks or marxism. But I was trying to draw the line between that and the suggestion above in this thread that the party endrosed everything he sadi about israel. As they've made clear they don't:

fair enough .. but this is what your party has sunk too ..

 

[durruti02]

You've got to hand it to the SWP they've been a lot more interesting since they moved in to comedy and embraced fundamentalism. I used to ignore them now I look forward to reading reactionary piffle like the above for the entertainment value.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

.. this is a war between two countries ..yes backed by imperialisms .. IT IS NOT AN ATTEMPT A GENOCIDE

Genocide no. But there is a concerted policy of ethnic cleansing of Lebanese shi'ites by the zionist state.

 

[durruti02]

Genocide no. But there is a concerted policy of ethnic cleansing of Lebanese shi'ites by the zionist state.

nigel was talking about BELSEN .. and i am gald you disgaree with him BB .. beruit is not like belsen

i also do not belive it is ethnic cleansing out of purely racist ideology .. yes many zionists have been racist against arabs .. non question but now it is trying to defend its fked up state .. israel whatever else it is and belive me i criticise it, has a large arab population who while not first class citizens are NOT being exterminated .. indeed it is a fair claim that israeli arabs have more rights in israel than other arab countries

to reduce it to a racial issue is to miss the point

 

[bolshiebhoy]

to reduce it to a racial issue is to miss the point

no race is the point. Zionism is a colonial ideology. You're overlooking the fact that Israel has been attempting to 'reshape' the Lebanon into a christian run pro-west state for decades where the shi'ites would be forced into slums. You're not daft enough to believe the press spint that their recent jaunt into the Lebanon was about 'defending' themselves. Surely?