"Israel is worse than Nazi Germany"

[Streathamite]

define 'propriety' within this particular context (i.e. racism-inspired crimes of and against humankind)

 

[likesfish]

think those photos of the idf were faked as it appears the two israeli's had at least been in the vicinty of an iron completely contary to idf policy more time on looking smart less time to shoot people
israel orgainsed genocide no
war of conquest against non hostile neighbours semi
slave labour no

 

[Ryoma]

Why do opponents of Israel always compare it to Nazi Germany? I have seen demos where placards showing the Israeli flag with a swastika instead of Star of David and Sharon in Nazi uniform. Why not compare it to Stalin's Russia, Mao's China or Pol Pot's Cambodia?

I think it is because they realise that Jews will find this comparison the most offensive thing and it is definitely anti-Semitic. With the collapse of Fatah (who followed a nominally socialist course) and the rise of the Islamists who don't mind being called anti-Semitic and subscribe to the myths of the Protocols, the pro-Islamist Left have no choice to parrot their pal's anti-Semitism.

 

[munkeeunit]

As with most on the left, I've done my stint of blindly calling everyone a nazi.

All it really represents at root is the intellectual death of many on the left, and their chronic inability to define the world in it's present form. Without the legacy of nazism to eternally point fingers at, the analytical emptiness of many on the left would be even more sorely exposed that it currently is at present.

 

[munkeeunit]

90 degrees to what?

90 degrees in relation to the empty, opagueness of post-modernist language?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

and I really think it could only be a swappie who comes out with this sort of guff.

Only he's not a swappie. And they've made it quite clear in the past that they don't agree with his more extreme statements that seem to equate zionism and judaism. So they're hardly likely to agree with this latest piece of idiocy he's spouting.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

the pro-Islamist Left have no choice to parrot their pal's anti-Semitism.

Atzmon isn't on the left though is he. Please point to a single anti-semitic comment by the anti-imperialist left in this country. Please just one.

 

[treelover]

nice one DLR

What I'd find really useful would be if the SWP would draw up a Continuum of Evil, so that if asked, at a dinner party, whether I thought Israel was worse than Nazi Germany I could say, for example, "Yes, but not as bad as Cortez killing the native Americans".

Where does the Inquisition sit in relation to the Crusades, or the African slave trade? With a handy fold-out crib-sheet - about the size, say, of a Body Shop loyalty card - I can quickly and inconspicuously check before returning to the conversation.
Reply With Quote

 

[Ryoma]

Atzmon isn't on the left though is he. Please point to a single anti-semitic comment by the anti-imperialist left in this country. Please just one.

Focusing on Israel as evil incarnate plays into deeply ingrained anti-Semitic predjudces. I mean a country like Burma/Myanmar is a vicious regime that oppresses it's miniorities and threatens neighbours like Thailand but it receives 1% of the condemnation that Israel does. Most of the Left newspapers are full of anti-Israel stuff that borders on mania! There are plenty of nasty governments in the world but why this obsession is Israel? Is it something to do with the fact that it is a Jewish state, that socialism is a European construct and that Jews have always been pariahs in Europe? The Left has opposed anti-Semitism when those commiting it are European Whites but there is muted condemnation of Islamist anti-Semitism. I used to buy Socialist Review and it used to have a column by a guy called Pat Stack. He was the only leading SWP'er I had any time for and I remember a column by him when he stated that no Socialist should have anything to do with anti-Semities no matter what political tradition they come from. That was in the 80's but today that advice is forgotten. No, the Left do not make anti-Semitic comments but they are prepared to work and organise alongside those who do and actions speak louder than words.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Is it something to do with the fact that it is a Jewish state, that socialism is a European construct and that Jews have always been pariahs in Europe?

No it's much simpler than that. Israel is the self-appointed watchdog of imperialism in the Middle East. Every victory for Israel is a victory for the US and a defeat for the working class and oppressed in every country. That's the explanation for the 'obsession' with Israel and no amount of innuendo about 'european' socialist anti-semitism or 'self-hating' jewish marxists can detract from that basic truth.

As it happens Stack has often made the same case himself. A couple of years ago his column defended the Left against the likes of David Aaronovitch the B52 liberal who likes to claim that the Left has an unhealthy obsession with Israel which reflects it's accomodation with anti-semites. Stack argues:

Here is a man who campaigned against the US intervention in Vietnam, and presumably demanded of President Johnson, 'Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?' a legitimate question even to what was arguably the most socially liberal and reforming US regime of modern times.


Today, though, he finds it offensive that anyone should ask the demented Bush and his henchmen the same question. As many began to wake up to the full horror of the neo-conservatives and their 'project for a new American century' he instead attacked the left for seeing them as part of a 'world Jewish conspiracy'.


Of course the left believes no such thing. No matter, Aaronovitch prefers to ignore the warmongering madness of Perle, Rumsfeld, etc and instead conjures up supposed anti-Semitism to attack their opponents.

 

[Nigel]

I haven't a fuckin' clue what you're gibbering about. Have you?

The Military Political & Fi8nancial Support that that Israel has openly given to these Regimes. And the unethical practices of International Zionist Banking/Lobbying Groups, specifically in and thriough America.

 

[Kaka Tim]

The Hypoteneuse of Horror.

The Oblong of Oppression.

The right angle of self righteousness.

The rhomboid of revolution.

The rectangle of reaction.

The hexagon of hegenomy.

The Dodecahedron of Democracy.

The Zomboid of Zionism. (that may not be a real shape or gemoetrical expression but i couldn't think of any others beginning with 'z').

I like this game.

 

[Ryoma]

The Military Political & Fi8nancial Support that that Israel has openly given to these Regimes. And the unethical practices of International Zionist Banking/Lobbying Groups, specifically in and thriough America.

Sounds like we are back to talk of all-powerful Jewish Cabals exerting their isidious power behind the scenes again. My point is that these ideas are very popular and common in the anti-War movement. The looney theory that Mossad did 9/11 and that they pre-warned every Jew in NYC is a widely belived in Islamic circles. Today Socialist movements are no longer the main fighter against anti-Imperialism. Non-socialist political Islam is and many socialist parties are "tailing" this movement and defending it. Anybody who questions this is written off as a Right Winger or Islamophobe.

 

[Nigel]

Sounds like we are back to talk of all-powerful Jewish Cabals exerting their isidious power behind the scenes again. My point is that these ideas are very popular and common in the anti-War movement. The looney theory that Mossad did 9/11 and that they pre-warned every Jew in NYC is a widely belived in Islamic circles. Today Socialist movements are no longer the main fighter against anti-Imperialism. Non-socialist political Islam is and many socialist parties are "tailing" this movement and defending it. Anybody who questions this is written off as a Right Winger or Islamophobe.

Are all Jewish People Zionists.
Are all Zionists & Supporters Of Zionism Jewish.

One of the founding policies of the Israelly state was to outlaw Yiddish, and superficially impose 'Modern Hebrew' as the national language. Undermining a large section of Jewish Culture. Neither was the early Kibbutz Movement totally Zionist, or with a seperatist agenda as many supporters of this insidious creed would have you believe.

Right Wing nationalism and religious fundamentalism are very serious problems.
However by the very nature of the modern strategic political & economic makeup, some are worse than others, & International Zionism is probably the worse.

 

[munkeeunit]

The Zomboid of Zionism. (that may not be a real shape or gemoetrical expression but i couldn't think of any others beginning with 'z').

I like this game.

We'll make a post modernist out of you yet, your on the hoof self-generated language creation is very promising.

I would like to add 'unreflexive zomboid contagangle of Zionism'

Which is completely self-explanatory.

 

[danny la rouge]

Why do opponents of Israel always compare it to Nazi Germany?

Always?

There's nothing like measured and non-hyperbolic language, and that was etc...

 

[hipipol]

"Only making plans for......

Interesting line...
"International Zionism is probably the worse."
Holy Mola, and there was I thinking this sort of bollocks long gone
This International Zionism of which you speak is an utter fallacy.
The US supports Israel becuase it is its outsourced Colony in the Mid East, it will continue to get US support as long as it fulfills its purpose, ie keeps the Arab states around it weak.
Its got fuck all to do with religion
The Yanks dont really give a toss about Israel being a Jewish state, what they want is for it to continue to be the front line - well at least that was the policy till the chimp decided that Sadam he'd tried to kill his dad and needed to be "taken down" OK Corral Stylee, though I suspect that wasn't long term policy, they just seem not have thought it thru and got rather bogged down. Well, Empires are like that.
Its always best to get vassal states on the border to take the battering, keeps yer own mob happy.
So, as long as Israel does the dirty on the Yanks behalf, they get the wedge, start getting on with the neighbours, the cash spigot stops flowing
Guess they'll keep fighting then

 

[Astramax]

The guys a goon. A trip to belsen is required.

 

[Streathamite]

Only he's not a swappie. And they've made it quite clear in the past that they don't agree with his more extreme statements that seem to equate zionism and judaism. So they're hardly likely to agree with this latest piece of idiocy he's spouting.

errmmm....they do seem to be Ojk with his fwellow-travelling when it suits their purpose?
dogs, fleas, etc

 

[Nigel]

The guys a goon. A trip to belsen is required.

Perhaps you should try Beruit

 

[Nigel]

Interesting line...
"International Zionism is probably the worse."
Holy Mola, and there was I thinking this sort of bollocks long gone
This International Zionism of which you speak is an utter fallacy.
The US supports Israel becuase it is its outsourced Colony in the Mid East, it will continue to get US support as long as it fulfills its purpose, ie keeps the Arab states around it weak.
Its got fuck all to do with religion
The Yanks dont really give a toss about Israel being a Jewish state, what they want is for it to continue to be the front line - well at least that was the policy till the chimp decided that Sadam he'd tried to kill his dad and needed to be "taken down" OK Corral Stylee, though I suspect that wasn't long term policy, they just seem not have thought it thru and got rather bogged down. Well, Empires are like that.
Its always best to get vassal states on the border to take the battering, keeps yer own mob happy.
So, as long as Israel does the dirty on the Yanks behalf, they get the wedge, start getting on with the neighbours, the cash spigot stops flowing
Guess they'll keep fighting then

So for a start USA does not have a large Right Wing Lobby#
The Neo Cons who have a very large influence on the Bush Administration, are'nt reliant on Pro Zionist(even though from one nutter I was talking to the divine plan is to wipe out all Jewish Peoples) Right Wing Evangalists & very powerful Pro Zioinist Industrialists and Capitalists.

 

[BarryB]

Only he's not a swappie. And they've made it quite clear in the past that they don't agree with his more extreme statements that seem to equate zionism and judaism. So they're hardly likely to agree with this latest piece of idiocy he's spouting.

He may not be in the SWP but he has performed at an event at their bookshop Bookmarks and of course at their Marxism event. So its clear that they are happy to associate themselves with him. And as far as I am aware they have not disassociated themselves from his latest extremist statement.

BarryB

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I don't agree with the swp inviting him to bookmarks or marxism. But I was trying to draw the line between that and the suggestion above in this thread that the party endrosed everything he sadi about israel. As they've made clear they don't:

We think that some of the formulations on his website might encourage his readers to feel that he is blurring the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti Zionism. In fact we have publicly challenged and argued against those of his ideas we disagree with.

 

[BarryB]

I don't agree with the swp inviting him to bookmarks or marxism. But I was trying to draw the line between that and the suggestion above in this thread that the party endrosed everything he sadi about israel. As they've made clear they don't:

Fair enough.

BarryB

 

[Streathamite]

I don't agree with the swp inviting him to bookmarks or marxism. But I was trying to draw the line between that and the suggestion above in this thread that the party endrosed everything he sadi about israel. As they've made clear they don't:

can't argue with that

 

[Astramax]

Perhaps you should try Beruit

Why the hell would i want to go there ?

 

[danny la rouge]

Great coffee, and excellent houmous.

 

[warren]

No it's much simpler than that. Israel is the self-appointed watchdog of imperialism in the Middle East. Every victory for Israel is a victory for the US and a defeat for the working class and oppressed in every country. That's the explanation for the 'obsession' with Israel and no amount of innuendo about 'european' socialist anti-semitism or 'self-hating' jewish marxists can detract from that basic truth.
:

A reactionary statement if ever there was one.

Forget about class-struggle and come join the rest of us in the modern World.

Sounds like we are back to talk of all-powerful Jewish Cabals exerting their isidious power behind the scenes again. My point is that these ideas are very popular and common in the anti-War movement. The looney theory that Mossad did 9/11 and that they pre-warned every Jew in NYC is a widely belived in Islamic circles. Today Socialist movements are no longer the main fighter against anti-Imperialism. Non-socialist political Islam is and many socialist parties are "tailing" this movement and defending it. Anybody who questions this is written off as a Right Winger or Islamophobe.

This analysis has completely shown what the radical ultra-left such as the SWP has become - apologists to a fascist and imperialist ideology called Islamism.

 

[TremulousTetra]

canrt be bothered reading the whole thread. If it hasn't already been posted, here is a link http://www.swp.org.uk/gilad.php

"The SWP does not believe that Gilad Atzmon is a Holocaust denier or racist. However, while defending Gilad’s right to play and speak on public platforms that in no way means we endorse all of Gilad’s views. We think that some of the formulations on his website might encourage his readers to feel that he is blurring the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti Zionism. In fact we have publicly challenged and argued against those of his ideas we disagree with."

 

[Mallard]

You've got to hand it to the SWP they've been a lot more interesting since they moved in to comedy and embraced fundamentalism. I used to ignore them now I look forward to reading reactionary piffle like the above for the entertainment value.