Israel: How do they get away with it?
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nino_savatte
No pasaran!
mears said:
Quoi?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
mears said:
And who bankrolls the IDF to a tune of several million while their own poor are left to die on the streets of New Orleans?
I forget, you don't give a fuck about the poor - do you?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Gee said:Several million? more like hundreds of millions if not more
Je suis désole, I thought I'd typed "several billion".
Do we just ignore the inconvenient parts? What do we do about Hezzbollah? Why does Lebanon allow Hezzbollah a private militia in the country? How do we get the groups and other countries in the region to even acknowledge the state of Israel? Should the west put increasing pressure on Syria and Iran to stop funding Hezzbollah?
You people only want to talk about one side of the equation, Israel. That doesn't foster any type of rational or thoughful dialouge.
You people only want to talk about one side of the equation, Israel. That doesn't foster any type of rational or thoughful dialouge.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
mears said:
You're not exactly in the best position to lecture anyone on "holistic" approaches to this conflict when you clearly have a problem comprehending the demographics and history of the region.
You only want to talk about one side of the equation too: Israel and the continued support your state gves to Israel in the form of armaments, of which over $2 billion of which has been channeled to Israel via Scotland.
Get your own house in order before you give us all lectures about how "one-sided" we are.
mears said:
Inconvenient parts? Like how the west should put increasing pressure on the USA to stop funding and arming the Israeli terrorist state.
Israel would have no problem being recognised as a state if they offered a fair settlement and just reparations to the Palestinians, and stopped trying to grab land that from other countries. Oh, and desisted from terrorist operations. Hezbollah in Lebanon wouldn't exist if Israel hadn't invaded and occupied Lebanon.
mears said:
Hezbollah does a lot of good (schools, health related work) in Lebanon, and enjoys public support for it. There was beginning to be more pressure for them to disarm from inside lebanon. That's f*cked now. Hezbollah have just been ensured their military future by the IDF (perhaps that was why they were keen to capture the soldiers in the first place?).
mears said:
Yes they should, but the problem is that while Israel is killing innocent children, support for these groups just grows.
I've noticed that the right wing (for it always the right supporting Israel apparently) have been saying 'Israel has a right to defend itself' as though that takes precendence over common sense, diplomacy, reason. Can you not see that Israel is adding to it's woes with it's actions?
ZAMB said:
But Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians used that as an area to stage attacks against Israel.
Israel leaves Lebanon and Hezbollah constantly goes over the Israeli border. The incident (which started all this by the way) of Hezbollah entering Israel to kill and capture was not the first time.
Hezzbollah is nothing but a gift to Israeli right wingers proving that when you give a little in places like Gaza all hell breaks loose. Hezzbollah and their paymasters in Syria and Iran are a gift to those in Israel who believe you can never give up an inch of land.
Ae589 said:
But Hezbollah is killing innocent people in Israel with their indescriminate rocket attacks. And Hezbollah started this mess in the first place. And Hezbollah escalated this conflict along with Israel.
Israel leaves Gaza and its attacked. It leaves Lebanon and its attacked. Its a nation of only 5 million surrounded by nations wanting to exterminate their state.
Its hardly all Israels fault. Everyone needs an attitude adjustment in the region.
mears said:
Not going to argue with that one (although I'm not sure how easy it would be for you or I to undergo an attitude adjustment if we shared the same history).
Actually, given your forthright views, I'd say it would be unlikely you would ever back down for the common good....
I didn't blame Israel thoug, I said they were making things worse for themselves. Do you not agree?
Israel has become weak and decadent. I'm not going to comment on the right or wrong of it but I do know if you're going to start a war then you had better make sure that you win. I see in the papers that they are whining about being unprepared for the effectiveness of Hzb's tactics and that the air campaign will be extended.
I think that they should:
Use airborne troops to seal the northern limit of HBZ's territory to stop them from escaping and then they should drive straight into the heart of their land, kill every single one of them and accept the high level of casualties.
OR
They should make peace and meet HBZ on the level and try find a way to live together.
It's their fools game of dancing on the periphery of political correctness that sickens me. The political spin that accompanies the fuel-air rhetoric.
I think that they should:
Use airborne troops to seal the northern limit of HBZ's territory to stop them from escaping and then they should drive straight into the heart of their land, kill every single one of them and accept the high level of casualties.
OR
They should make peace and meet HBZ on the level and try find a way to live together.
It's their fools game of dancing on the periphery of political correctness that sickens me. The political spin that accompanies the fuel-air rhetoric.
mears said:
And the much larger number of lebanese people killed aren't innocent? I have posted on another thread about Israel's continued sorties into Lebanon to capture or kill people [mostly innocent civilians], so I don't think Hezbollah started it - they were just trying to get some leverage to get their prisoners released.
What planet are you on? Israel only moved its settlers out of Gaza, but it kept complete control of all access, turning Gaza into an open prison while they continued to increase settlements on the west bank.
Attitude adjustment? Israel needs to start paying attention to those over 60 UN resolutions that it just ignores. It needs to go back to its pre-1967 borders and stop landgrabs. It needs to free the over 10,000 prisoners that it holds and sometimes tortures. Then I don't think it would have any problems with either Palestine or Lebanon. Its problems are of its own making.
ZAMB said:
Innocents are being killed on both sides, BOTH sides are to blame, right?
I am sorry, are you placing blame in this conflict on anyone other than Israel?
The Palestinians took control of Gaza and they used it as a staging ground to launch attacks against Israel. Its a fact not open to interpretation.
If Israel needs to stop land grabs, Arab nations must recognize Israel. If Israel gives land back those parties must become good stewards of the land and not use it to attack a country it hopes to exterminate.
Enough balme to go around in this one.
mears said:
Wasn't it their country to start with? They weren't the ones bulldozing peoples' homes and then shooting at those who objected. And I think you'll find that, even after the Israelis withdrew their settlements from Gaza, that they were the ones who always had 'control'.
To start with a lot of it was Britain's fault - they needed the Palestinians during time of war, and made them a promise concerning their land, that, in retrospect, they never intended to keep - having already decided to let the Jews move there - though Balfour made no mention of a Jewish 'state' AFAIR.
The US also deserves some blame for vetoing any UN resolution that would have given fair treatment to the Palestinians, while at the same time arming the Israelis to the teeth and turning a blind eye to their illegal and uninspected nuclear weapons programme.
The Palestinians are the ones who are mainly the victims here - summarily pushed off their own land where their families had lived for centuries.
The US also deserves some blame for vetoing any UN resolution that would have given fair treatment to the Palestinians, while at the same time arming the Israelis to the teeth and turning a blind eye to their illegal and uninspected nuclear weapons programme.
The Palestinians are the ones who are mainly the victims here - summarily pushed off their own land where their families had lived for centuries.
ZAMB said:
When Israel left Gaza what happened? Do you even pay attention to the detail, because I do pay attention.
Islamic Jihad from Gaza started lodbbing rockets into Israel. So Israel leaves the Gaza strip and they get missles raining down into towns in southern Israel. What did Hamas do to stop Islamic Jihad from launching these rockets? Nothing that I can find.
Now if you are an Israeli you might think it a bad idea to withdraw from any area when this happens. Palestinians were unable to police the gaza strip. They did nothing but prove the right wingers in Israel to be correct.
Now whose fault is this?
How do they get away with it?
... because a third of all U.S. citizens believe the bible is literally true.
... because 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the Book of Revelations are going to come true.
... because nearly half of all U.S. Congressmen are are backed by the religious right, and forty-five senators and 186 members of the 108th Congress earned 80 to 100 percent approval ratings from the three most influential Christian-right advocacy groups.
... because a significant proportion of the US population believe that, once Israel has occupied the rest of its "bibli-cal lands," legions of the Antichrist will attack it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the Jews who have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the rapture. True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and transported to heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, they will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of boils, sores, locusts and frogs during the several years of tribulation that follow.
... because the rapture index - "the prophetic speedometer of end-time activity" - now stands at 153.
[source]
The rest, as they say when studying the Torah, is commentary.
(Also posted in this parallel thread - this one seems more active).
... because a third of all U.S. citizens believe the bible is literally true.
... because 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the Book of Revelations are going to come true.
... because nearly half of all U.S. Congressmen are are backed by the religious right, and forty-five senators and 186 members of the 108th Congress earned 80 to 100 percent approval ratings from the three most influential Christian-right advocacy groups.
... because a significant proportion of the US population believe that, once Israel has occupied the rest of its "bibli-cal lands," legions of the Antichrist will attack it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the Jews who have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the rapture. True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and transported to heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, they will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of boils, sores, locusts and frogs during the several years of tribulation that follow.
... because the rapture index - "the prophetic speedometer of end-time activity" - now stands at 153.
[source]
The rest, as they say when studying the Torah, is commentary.
(Also posted in this parallel thread - this one seems more active).
Originally Posted by Wookster: 1) the west regards arabs as sub human
So while the stereotype maybe offensive, it is not ridicululous in the sense that it is not being held. It simply acknowledges the Western style for dominating, restructuring and having authority over the non-West.
It is a surprisingly common pattern. The most obvious is the myth early U.S. settlers constructed about the native Indians (we know it today in the form of "Westerns") as a device for providing the moral justification for their extermination. Likewise, the unconscious bias against Arabs - which is founded on 600 years of Western thinking - provides a similar justification today.
It actually derives from a respectable analysis of Western history, and is described by the label Orientalism. During the Middle Ages Islamic people were demonised as "alien" enemies of the Christian world as a propaganda device for mobilising Crusades. Over time it consolidated into unconscious biases regarding non-Westerners, compounded by the practice of the West defining itself in terms of what others were not.editor said:
So while the stereotype maybe offensive, it is not ridicululous in the sense that it is not being held. It simply acknowledges the Western style for dominating, restructuring and having authority over the non-West.
It is a surprisingly common pattern. The most obvious is the myth early U.S. settlers constructed about the native Indians (we know it today in the form of "Westerns") as a device for providing the moral justification for their extermination. Likewise, the unconscious bias against Arabs - which is founded on 600 years of Western thinking - provides a similar justification today.
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